Legalization of hard drugs

[Salus Maior]

Why is it morally wrong to try and save someone? If we talk even one person off of a ledge, I think we've done the greatest good.

Because in doing so you are undermining his agency and control over the most basic of human rights, that being the right to live. If you deny someone the right to chose his own death than you are denying him the right to chose his own life as well. So whilst it is good to save people who are sick or get into an accident or are attacked it is not good to "save" those who deliberately seek death out. Because life or death is their choice to make. And no matter how we feel about that choice we must allow them to make it.

When you're suicidal you're not in a state of mind to rationally choose.

Same thing as if you were drunk.

[South Reinkalistan]

My stance? Legalise all of it. All drugs. The state has no right to ban the consensual consumption of any substance, provided the consumer is of a reasonable age.

But what I think should also be done is have people made completely aware of the kind of shit strong drugs do to your body. In some countries, like the UK, smoking packets must have labels on them warning the consumer of how much it's going to fuck them over. I imagine something like this.

At the end of the day: Adults should be able consume whatever they want, but the consequences must be made clear to them should they choose to do so. Then they have nobody to blame but themselves when everything goes tits-up.

[Chan Island]

I would legalize all of it. All of it. Even the stuff that kills you instantly like drinking bleach. But I would put several conditions on that.
1. All drugs sold should have to go through the same quality control program as food or medicine. That way you could ensure people aren't getting poisoned by anything other than the poison they actually chose.
2. All drugs should be sold over the counter in pharmacies to ensure proper access to tools like syringes and thus reduce HIV transmission and the like.
3. All buyers should be forced to sign a waver disqualifying them for ever more from any and all social aid programs, the publicly funded healthcare system and the like.

How would you regulate krokadil? That stuff is just straight up an SCP drug and shouldn't be allowed anywhere near people.

https://www.healthline.com/health/kroko ... de-effects

[Gunyria]

Why is it morally wrong to try and save someone? If we talk even one person off of a ledge, I think we've done the greatest good.

Because in doing so you are undermining his agency and control over the most basic of human rights, that being the right to live. If you deny someone the right to chose his own death than you are denying him the right to chose his own life as well. So whilst it is good to save people who are sick or get into an accident or are attacked it is not good to "save" those who deliberately seek death out. Because life or death is their choice to make. And no matter how we feel about that choice we must allow them to make it.

I pretty much agree with you but what about people who used drugs as something to chill out or relax and after some time they find them selves addicted. They are not looking for death. Their ideal world is one where they would live 100 years and could smoke crystal meth every day but that's not gonna happen. If there is someone who wants to kill him self by drug overdose, alright. But we need to help those people who just got hooked on drugs and want to live

[The Snazzylands]

I would legalize all of it. All of it. Even the stuff that kills you instantly like drinking bleach. But I would put several conditions on that.
1. All drugs sold should have to go through the same quality control program as food or medicine. That way you could ensure people aren't getting poisoned by anything other than the poison they actually chose.
2. All drugs should be sold over the counter in pharmacies to ensure proper access to tools like syringes and thus reduce HIV transmission and the like.
3. All buyers should be forced to sign a waver disqualifying them for ever more from any and all social aid programs, the publicly funded healthcare system and the like.

How would you regulate krokadil? That stuff is just straight up an SCP drug and shouldn't be allowed anywhere near people.

https://www.healthline.com/health/kroko ... de-effects

From my understanding krokadil is a last-resort replacement for other opiates like heroin.

[Des-Bal]

I'm all for decriminalization. It should be very clear by now that having all forms of drug possession be a criminal offense does a lot more harm than good. Legalization is something different and could have some unforeseen negative consequences.

For example, the reason performance enhancing substances are banned in sports is because otherwise there would always be an incentive for every player to use them, as they give a substantial advantage over someone who does not.
This might be an extreme example, but people who work on Wall Street are known to often use amphetamines, cocaine, or other stimulants in order to keep up with all the work they're expected to do. If these drugs are outright legalized, it's possible that would just exacerbate the problem, and some people in highly competitive work environments could feel like they're expected to use these drugs in order to work more.

Okay this is a bit hyperbolic. People who try meth don't instantly die. But people who get hooked on it build a tolerance to it, and need to keep increasing their dosage which makes overdoses much more likely.

Drugs being illegal doesn't make it harder to overdose, it makes it easier because you can't be sure how much you're taking.

How would you regulate krokadil? That stuff is just straight up an SCP drug and shouldn't be allowed anywhere near people.

https://www.healthline.com/health/kroko ... de-effects

Nobodies drug of choice is krokodil. Krokodil is something you make in your bathtub because the stuff you wanted isn't available. It's existence is exclusively because other drugs are outlawed and it's horrible side effects actually have more to do with the fucked up home made chemistry involved than the actual desomorphine people are getting high on.

[Chan Island]

How would you regulate krokadil? That stuff is just straight up an SCP drug and shouldn't be allowed anywhere near people.

https://www.healthline.com/health/kroko ... de-effects

From my understanding krokadil is a last-resort replacement for other opiates like heroin.

That's generally how it has come up, yes. It's in fact based off another opiate but with all kinds of rubbish thrown into it to ... well, screw up the user for life as far as effects go. But probably cheaply bulk it out for reals.

How would you regulate krokadil? That stuff is just straight up an SCP drug and shouldn't be allowed anywhere near people.

https://www.healthline.com/health/kroko ... de-effects

Nobodies drug of choice is krokodil. Krokodil is something you make in your bathtub because the stuff you wanted isn't available. It's existence is exclusively because other drugs are outlawed and it's horrible side effects actually have more to do with the fucked up home made chemistry involved than the actual desomorphine people are getting high on.

I actually agree with all of what you say there. And I really want to be there. My inclinations are to legalise the vast majority of hard drugs, especially cocaine (the fears of which seem completely overblown considering how many of the rich and powerful seem to survive it perfectly fine), ketamine or ecstasy. .

But just because you've legalised everything else doesn't mean that substances such as this one don't cease to exist. I raise it because it presents a genuine conundrum to me. On the one hand, my instincts are to always legalise and allow things in the name of freedom, but on the other hand, indisputable, disastrous and virtually instant poisons like this one should never be used by anyone because of how traumatically destructive it is. I just don't see a way you can regulate something like this.

How would you go about it?

[Bromagia]

I disagree. As far as I am concerned it is morally wrong for us to do anything to prevent or dissuade people from self destructing if that is their choice. Which is why I advocate cutting them off (#3). You want to drink bleach? Fine, drink bleach. It's your choice. Same for taking drugs, smoking or eating a bullet.

Why is it morally wrong to try and save someone? If we talk even one person off of a ledge, I think we've done the greatest good.

You shouldn't presume to know what's good for a person better than they do, let alone actually override their wishes to enact your "good" wishes.

[Bromagia]

Because in doing so you are undermining his agency and control over the most basic of human rights, that being the right to live. If you deny someone the right to chose his own death than you are denying him the right to chose his own life as well. So whilst it is good to save people who are sick or get into an accident or are attacked it is not good to "save" those who deliberately seek death out. Because life or death is their choice to make. And no matter how we feel about that choice we must allow them to make it.

When you're suicidal you're not in a state of mind to rationally choose.

Same thing as if you were drunk.

That needs a source.

[Des-Bal]

I actually agree with all of what you say there. And I really want to be there. My inclinations are to legalise the vast majority of hard drugs, especially cocaine (the fears of which seem completely overblown considering how many of the rich and powerful seem to survive it perfectly fine), ketamine or ecstasy. .

But just because you've legalised everything else doesn't mean that substances such as this one don't cease to exist. I raise it because it presents a genuine conundrum to me. On the one hand, my instincts are to always legalise and allow things in the name of freedom, but on the other hand, indisputable, disastrous and virtually instant poisons like this one should never be used by anyone because of how traumatically destructive it is. I just don't see a way you can regulate something like this.

How would you go about it?

Make it legal to purchase opioids. Krokodil is just Desomorphine somebody tried to make in a rusty bucket. Desomorphine won't rot your skin off or turn your bones to jelly, that's just the fucked up consequences of rusty bucket chemistry. Same with cocaine, when you hear about someone trying a little bit of cocaine and instantly dying it's generally because whatever they got was cut with some evil shit. If you just said "hey what if you could buy that desomorphine purer, cheaper, without risking robbery murder or jail, and it wasn't from a rusty bucket" very few people are going to turn their noses up. Further, if it's legal and someone using it isn't branded a criminal they're also more likely to seek and receive help and their ability to get a job and put their life on track isn't hampered.

I'm not saying drugs are good. Drugs will fuck you up, even legal ones, even ones we don't really worry about- the issue is whether or not making them illegal makes things better and I'd argue it absolutely does not.

[Torisakia]

Sure, why not. Portugal legalized hard drugs. And when was the last time you ever heard about something bad happening in Portugal? Exactly.

[Ankenland]

That needs a source.

You appear to be engaging in "philosophy" but definitely not science. Therefore this does not need a source, it needs an argument.

He is arguing that suicide can never be a rational choice, therefore, anyone who wants to commit suicide is by definition in an irrational frame of mind.

I respectfully submit that human desires are axiomatic and cannot be rational or irrational. There is no reason to want anything, to live or to die, and the very notion of "reason" is abused by people who think that it means "share my feelings" when it is actually more like math.

[Bromagia]

That needs a source.

You appear to be engaging in "philosophy" but definitely not science. Therefore this does not need a source, it needs an argument.

He is arguing that suicide can never be a rational choice, therefore, anyone who wants to commit suicide is by definition in an irrational frame of mind.

I respectfully submit that human desires are axiomatic and cannot be rational or irrational. There is no reason to want anything, to live or to die, and the very notion of "reason" is abused by people who think that it means "share my feelings" when it is actually more like math.

It's a claim that can be empirically proven if true. He just needs to demonstrate that suicidal action is the result of specific impairments in the brain regions associated with decision making. He made a comparison to alcohol. Alcohol's effects on reason can be empirically proven by imaging the brain. If suicide is necessarily irrational then it must have an observable cause in biology.

[Albrenia]

I think some forms of suicide could be argued to be 'rational', but most probably are not. Since one does not generally 'choose' to have depressive mental health issues, or voices in one's head and the like.

A very complex issue.

[Page]

I don't necessarily think fentanyl should be sold at the gas station but personal possession and use should definitely be entirely decriminalized.

[Nakena]

I don't necessarily think fentanyl should be sold at the gas station but personal possession and use should definitely be entirely decriminalized.

Fetanyl is an public health danger and should remain banned for obvious reasons as it is a bio-harzard material which should only be handled, administred or prescribed by trained professionals in a controlled environment.

The capacities for enforcing that could be freed if other drugs like marijuana, mushrooms and LSD and so are decriminalized.

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

I think there would be a lot less demand for things like fentanyl if people could get hold of heroin legally and at legal prices. I doubt anyone would want spice if they could get good legal weed. Same for krokodil, bathsalts, etc

[Heloin]

Sure.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Conflicted on this. Many hard drugs can result in years of hardcore addiction and eventual death for many. I really don’t know.

[Nakena]

I think there would be a lot less demand for things like fentanyl if people could get hold of heroin legally and at legal prices. I doubt anyone would want spice if they could get good legal weed. Same for krokodil, bathsalts, etc

At bare minimum Methadone/Dolophine should be able to be sold freely in pharmacies or on prescription. Like widespread.

[Bromagia]

I don't necessarily think fentanyl should be sold at the gas station but personal possession and use should definitely be entirely decriminalized.

I understand the midway thinking. However, if harm reduction is your goal (I'm assuming it is) then consider that the true harm of prohibition is not the plight of the addicted, it's the empowering of organized crime syndicates.

I daresay mere decriminalization might exacerbate organized crime as the huge profit margin still exists while the customer is now unafraid of prosecution, perhaps driving them to consume more and more openly. This is just speculation and not an actual position of mine.

[Bromagia]

I don't necessarily think fentanyl should be sold at the gas station but personal possession and use should definitely be entirely decriminalized.

Fetanyl is an public health danger and should remain banned for obvious reasons as it is a bio-harzard material which should only be handled, administred or prescribed by trained professionals in a controlled environment.

The capacities for enforcing that could be freed if other drugs like marijuana, mushrooms and LSD and so are decriminalized.

I'm skeptical that many would choose Fentanyl as the opiate of choice if the cost of other opiates wasn't so high because of prohibition. Right now if you're a recreational opiate user Fentanyl is the most cost effective option in terms of buzz for your buck.

[Bromagia]

Conflicted on this. Many hard drugs can result in years of hardcore addiction and eventual death for many. I really don’t know.

It's important to consider to what degree the addiction is a result of prohibition. Barring having your own laboratory equipment there's no way to know how potent the drug you're about to take is. This is strictly a result of prohibition and is a major, perhaps the main, factor in recreational drug overdoses and accidental death.

Then there's the organized crime syndicates. The harm they cause goes beyond the users and their families. They can and do compromise the welfare and security of entire nations.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Conflicted on this. Many hard drugs can result in years of hardcore addiction and eventual death for many. I really don’t know.

It's important to consider to what degree the addiction is a result of prohibition. Barring having your own laboratory equipment there's no way to know how potent the drug you're about to take is. This is strictly a result of prohibition and is a major, perhaps the main, factor in recreational drug overdoses and accidental death.

Then there's the organized crime syndicates. The harm they cause goes beyond the users and their families. They can and do compromise the welfare and security of entire nations.

The prohibition exacerbating a problem is something I do take into account. I understand your stance. Maybe it’s just too late and I’m tired. Please, allow me to address this again once I’ve rested.

[Des-Bal]

Fetanyl is an public health danger and should remain banned for obvious reasons as it is a bio-harzard material which should only be handled, administred or prescribed by trained professionals in a controlled environment.

The capacities for enforcing that could be freed if other drugs like marijuana, mushrooms and LSD and so are decriminalized.

People are dying from fentanyl because people are getting heroin cut with the stuff and have no way of knowing. If you know exactly how much you're getting the risk of oding goes way down.