Catholic church on birth control; cause for abandoning it?

[Antityranicals]

I don't think many of these hardened utilitarians really understand what virtue is.

Now you're just throwing out childish insults.

Not really, just that, if I am correct in believing that you are a utilitarian, you, like other utilitarians, reject the idea of virtue, replacing it with "utility." When you think virtue, therefore, I believe you think utility, which is... incorrect.

[Las Islas de Metanoia]

A weapon is meant to harm or kill, a correction is for growth and discipline. Far from wanting you to fall from grace I want you to rise to virtue. God bless you.

And your still being condescending, see how that works?
You're not 'praying ' for someone's welfare but for them to think more like you which is rather insincere of you.

What do you want me to do, be uncivilized and call him asshole? Because that's more sincere? Intensity of emotion does not equal grace and effectiveness. My Atheist dad called me an asshole all the time, it didn't help me, but I just smile and forgive him. It's ok if he doesn't listen even though it's meant for his growth, God gave us free choice, and I respect his. Freedom would not be freedom if we cannot also have the choice to do wrong too. I may be wrong sometimes and I thank you for saying that I am insincere. Maybe I am too methodogical instead of feeling I should correct that part of me, thank you.

[The New California Republic]

And your still being condescending, see how that works?
You're not 'praying ' for someone's welfare but for them to think more like you which is rather insincere of you.

Well, I suppose that the reason that he thinks what he does is because he thinks that that is the best way to think, so therefore, he sincerely believes that you thinking more like he does would be good for you, and thus contributing to your welfare. That may or may not be true; I don't know exactly what he's praying for, but at least he does mean well...

He doesn't mean well at all. The way he is using "I'll pray for you" is just to get a cheap stab in. There is nothing but malice behind what he is doing.

[The Black Forrest]

And yet safe sex practices helped reduced the aids epidemic in the states. The fact you have access to condoms is meaningless if you don’t use them (aka it doesn’t feel nice).


Being a selfish prick about sex is still light years better then being a selfish prick and trying to force your “moral” values on others.

Safe sex is good but its a band aid, the problem is promiscuity and irresponsible sex. Especially sex that does not create bonds and families. Sex as the ends not as the means as what Holywood debauchery has cursed the world with. People now have sex for the pleasure, not treating it as the supreme act of love of procreation it is meant to be, but some kind of drug high you can buy and hustle with.

Also, Morality is a social contract that maintains civilization. What are you? Some kid who thinks that his selfish self-made morality is superior to the normative morality of society as a whole?

I was spanked and disciplined by my parents and got told that my selfish and relativistic thoughts were evil and as an adult I am quite glad that that normative morality was forced on me as a child. I am not that special, the world needs more humility and less selfishness.

Here is a starting problem for you. Promiscuity has been around longer then homo sapians. Irresponsible sex is not practicing safe sex.

The purpose of sex is not only to create bonds or families. Hollywood is a by product. Just as books and art have used to convey sexual desire.

Sex is pleasure. It always has been. It’s only been a problem when Religion tried to force it’s ways on people. Sex even once prevented a war.

Religious morality is not needed to maintain civilization and I am not a kid. I am probably older then you.

Spanked and punished for not holding complete religious views? I feel sorry for you. Hopefully you will not beat your kids when you have them.

Humility is a good thing. However; it’s not humility when it’s enforced by the lash. Selfishness is a problem. Try to make things better by not being selfish and thinking your views are what everybody else has to follow or worse try to make them follow.

[Genivaria]

And your still being condescending, see how that works?
You're not 'praying ' for someone's welfare but for them to think more like you which is rather insincere of you.

What do you want me to do, be uncivilized and call him asshole? Because that's more sincere? Intensity of emotion does not equal grace and effectiveness. My Atheist dad called me an asshole all the time, it didn't help me, but I just smile and forgive him. It's ok if he doesn't listen even though it's meant for his growth, God gave us free choice, and I respect his. Freedom would not be freedom if we cannot also have the choice to do wrong too. I may be wrong sometimes and I thank you for saying that I am insincere. Maybe I am too methodogical instead of feeling I should correct that part of me, thank you.

The alternative to condescension and acting superior isn't to go straight to insults, I'm not sure how you made been that leap in logic.

[The Black Forrest]

Then give your nature you should go back to not procreating.

Whoa, man, calm down with the eugenics...

Hmm? That’s not really eugenics.

[United Muscovite Nations]

Then should sex be provided as mental healthcare by the state?

That seems like grasping.

If sex is a need then it's really not. If it's a need, it's no different than food, shelter, or healthcare.

[The New California Republic]

And your still being condescending, see how that works?
You're not 'praying ' for someone's welfare but for them to think more like you which is rather insincere of you.

What do you want me to do, be uncivilized and call him asshole? Because that's more sincere? Intensity of emotion does not equal grace and effectiveness. My Atheist dad called me an asshole all the time, it didn't help me, but I just smile and forgive him. It's ok if he doesn't listen even though it's meant for his growth, God gave us free choice, and I respect his. Freedom would not be freedom if we cannot also have the choice to do wrong too. I may be wrong sometimes and I thank you for saying that I am insincere. Maybe I am too methodogical instead of feeling I should correct that part of me, thank you.

"I'm going to keep on being insincere and condescending with the whole 'I'll pray for you' shtick."

Well know this going forward: I utterly reject any offer that you will pray for me or asking god to bless me, as it is total bullshit, so don't even waste your breath saying it.

[Genivaria]

That seems like grasping.

If sex is a need then it's really not. If it's a need, it's no different than food, shelter, or healthcare.

I think there might be an argument for that but that's a question for someone with a degree in a relevant medical field which isn't me.

[Las Islas de Metanoia]

Safe sex is good but its a band aid, the problem is promiscuity and irresponsible sex. Especially sex that does not create bonds and families. Sex as the ends not as the means as what Holywood debauchery has cursed the world with. People now have sex for the pleasure, not treating it as the supreme act of love of procreation it is meant to be, but some kind of drug high you can buy and hustle with.

Also, Morality is a social contract that maintains civilization. What are you? Some kid who thinks that his selfish self-made morality is superior to the normative morality of society as a whole?

I was spanked and disciplined by my parents and got told that my selfish and relativistic thoughts were evil and as an adult I am quite glad that that normative morality was forced on me as a child. I am not that special, the world needs more humility and less selfishness.

Here is a starting problem for you. Promiscuity has been around longer then homo sapians. Irresponsible sex is not practicing safe sex.

The purpose of sex is not only to create bonds or families. Hollywood is a by product. Just as books and art have used to convey sexual desire.

Sex is pleasure. It always has been. It’s only been a problem when Religion tried to force it’s ways on people. Sex even once prevented a war.

Religious morality is not needed to maintain civilization and I am not a kid. I am probably older then you.

Spanked and punished for not holding complete religious views? I feel sorry for you. Hopefully you will not beat your kids when you have them.

Humility is a good thing. However; it’s not humility when it’s enforced by the lash. Selfishness is a problem. Try to make things better by not being selfish and thinking your views are what everybody else has to follow or worse try to make them follow.

Religious morality not needed to maintain civilization? Really?

So what do you think of the Reign of Terror produced by the Atheist driven French Revolution? And the Gulags produced by the Atheist Soviet Union? Where they better alternatives than religious civilization? What about the Social Darwinist and Spiritual denying Materialist ideologies of Nazism and Communism which caused the most bloodshed in the history of mankind?

Are they better alternatives to Religious morality?

[United Muscovite Nations]

If sex is a need then it's really not. If it's a need, it's no different than food, shelter, or healthcare.

I think there might be an argument for that but that's a question for someone with a degree in a relevant medical field which isn't me.

My argument is that it's clearly not a need, and if it were, then incels are right.

[Salus Maior]

It’s just a microcosm of the majority of the pro-choice movement-When in the womb, the fetus is the only thing that matters. The second outside of it? Crickets.

Lives that matter according to your stereotypical republican:

•Unborn babies

Lives that don't matter according to your stereotypical republican:

•Victims of police brutality
•Iraqis
•Palestinians
•Latino children locked in detention centers and separated from their parents
•Poor families that can barely afford food
•Endangered wildlife
•Workers in foreign sweatshops
•Anyone who Donald Trump marks as a dead man walking
•People who live wherever there's a damn ocean
•American soldiers who keep getting sent to the killing fields every twenty years or so

Yeah, Die-hard-toeing-the-line Republicans aren't exactly what I'd call a prime example of Christian virtue and devotion.

[The Black Forrest]

That seems like grasping.

If sex is a need then it's really not. If it's a need, it's no different than food, shelter, or healthcare.

What you are proposing is called prostitution. Hmmmm. Regulation is a good idea. Amsterdam did in what 2000?

We should do that here. It gives the sex workers more autonomy; they can pay taxes and it reduces the stigma.

Well done!

[The New California Republic]

Religious morality not needed to maintain civilization? Really?

Religious morality is not the only morality, nor the only morality capable of maintaining society, regardless of how much the religious would want to assert to everyone that it is true.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

If sex is a need then it's really not. If it's a need, it's no different than food, shelter, or healthcare.

What you are proposing is called prostitution. Hmmmm. Regulation is a good idea. Amsterdam did in what 2000?

We should do that here. It gives the sex workers more autonomy; they can pay taxes and it reduces the stigma.

Well done!

Unfortunately UMN proposes that we shut down the prostitution industry and any other industry he deems indecent in favour of turning a sizeable portion of the populace into hikkikomoris monitored by the state. <.>

[Salus Maior]

Then people should stop being horny. It's not the Catholic Church's responsibility to pay for people to have sex without consequences.

You can't stop something which is deeply ingrained into your DNA. The instinct to procreate is the very essence of what makes us a living being. If you don't want people to procreate, then either prevent their semen from fertilizing an egg within a woman's uterus by using birth control, or find a way to manipulate the human genome to remove the urge to procreate. But of course, the Catholic Church will do none of this, because its much easier for them to stick to long debunked pseudoscientific dogma rather than admit that their policy is wrong.

Then there's no choice in sex?

Then why is rape as bad as it is?

[Antityranicals]

For now, I'm going to assume the premise that climate change is human caused, which I honestly doubt, but I suppose it's possible.

You just accused the physical sciences of misleading the public. That's nothing to sneeze at. On what grounds do you accuse them of this?

We are burning fossil fuels, and saving and improving the lives of billions while we're at it.

If it were just to buy us time as we transition to renewables, you might have a point. Instead we've been putting off such a transition.

The ice caps being unmelted is not a good in and of itself, but people not starving because they don't have access to food brought to them by petroleum-powered transportation is.

Firstly, other human beings are impacted by this, such as people living near the ocean. They didn't choose to be impacted by this.

Secondly, what right have we to alter the planet for our own self-interest? Wouldn't it be more honourable to keep our numbers to the minimum, in the name of the "take only pictures, leave only footprints" mantra?

And given how nature-related deaths are at an all-time low, I would say that our environment is not changing in such a way that is hurting people. What say you to this?

Define "nature-related deaths."

If you mean weather-related, bear in mind that weather forecasts have improved in accuracy over the years, buying people more time to take steps that allow them to survive. But that still means they have to say goodbye to their homes when they get destroyed by these kinds of storms. And in some cases (eg. Katrina) the technologies people rely upon for survival break down.

We tried to tax carbon to reimburse the victims of climate change. There are millions of voters who wouldn't bite. They can't all be climate change denialists.

1. On the grounds that they are largely funded by the government, which stands to prosper immensely at people panicking and believing that socialism, which is what every climate politician inevitably suggests, is the only way to save themselves. Besides, the climate consensus isn't nearly as broad as it is thought to be. There are plenty of intellectually savvy dissidents.

2. "Transition to renewables" is simply not possible at our current technology levels. The market will decide when "transition to renewables" is economically viable, and when it does, I promise you, I will not hold on to fossil fuels.

3. It's a lot less expensive to do what the Netherlands did and reclaim land from the sea than to stop using fossil fuels. The damage costs caused by burning fossil fuels per ton, even if you assume that that actually is what is causing the earth to warm, is less than a cent, as opposed to the hundreds of dollars that each ton can add to the economy.

4. And none of these technologies would have been possible without cheap energy from fossil fuel.

5. If you are hurt by climate change, and you can prove that someone or a group of someones actually caused that, I'd have no problem with you suing. But since such a lawsuit would likely be laughed out of a courtroom, I see no reason why the law should do what civil courts won't.

[United Muscovite Nations]

What you are proposing is called prostitution. Hmmmm. Regulation is a good idea. Amsterdam did in what 2000?

We should do that here. It gives the sex workers more autonomy; they can pay taxes and it reduces the stigma.

Well done!

Unfortunately UMN proposes that we shut down the prostitution industry and any other industry he deems indecent in favour of turning a sizeable portion of the populace into hikkikomoris monitored by the state. <.>

Imagine thinking that not having sex makes you a hikkikomori. I'm supposedly the one obsessed with sex despite the fact that you guys apparently can't go without it.

[Las Islas de Metanoia]

Religious morality not needed to maintain civilization? Really?

Religious morality is not the only morality, nor the only morality capable of maintaining society, regardless of how much the religious would want to assert to everyone that it is true.

How many Atheists have Christian majority nations persecuted? The worse we would do is pray for you. But if you carried a Bible in Stalinist Russia they would accuse of Anti-Progressivism and send you to re-education camps or mental hospitals or maybe send you to the Gulags of Siberia and if you continued to believe in God, they would execute you for subversion it doesn't matter since they don't consider people possessed souls anyway. Since the official state ideology is vehemently atheist, Karl Marx was an Atheist as well as the Communist Politburo.

[The Black Forrest]

Here is a starting problem for you. Promiscuity has been around longer then homo sapians. Irresponsible sex is not practicing safe sex.

The purpose of sex is not only to create bonds or families. Hollywood is a by product. Just as books and art have used to convey sexual desire.

Sex is pleasure. It always has been. It’s only been a problem when Religion tried to force it’s ways on people. Sex even once prevented a war.

Religious morality is not needed to maintain civilization and I am not a kid. I am probably older then you.

Spanked and punished for not holding complete religious views? I feel sorry for you. Hopefully you will not beat your kids when you have them.

Humility is a good thing. However; it’s not humility when it’s enforced by the lash. Selfishness is a problem. Try to make things better by not being selfish and thinking your views are what everybody else has to follow or worse try to make them follow.

Religious morality not needed to maintain civilization? Really?

So what do you think of the Reign of Terror produced by the Atheist driven French Revolution? And the Gulags produced by the Atheist Soviet Union? Where they better alternatives than religious civilization? What about the Social Darwinist and Spiritual denying Materialist ideologies of Nazism and Communism which caused the most bloodshed in the history of mankind?

Are they better alternatives to Religious morality?

Moral systems can have and have existed without Religion.

Reign of Terror? You think only atheists were involved? Ok. How about the Crusades. All the religious based torture and punishment that existed when they had more control(speaking of Europe).

Saudi Arabia is very religious. Should we introduce beheading, whipping and stoning? Did you know they actually post schedules in the foreign sections so people can avoid these events?

A religious moral system is fine if you want to live it. Where you go wrong is trying to force it on others.

Think about. Who has more faith? Somebody who chose that life style or those who were “Mentored” into it?

[The New California Republic]

Religious morality is not the only morality, nor the only morality capable of maintaining society, regardless of how much the religious would want to assert to everyone that it is true.

How many Atheists have Christian majority nations persecuted? The worse we would do is pray for you. But if you carried a Bible in Stalinist Russia they would accuse of Anti-Progressivism and send you to re-education camps, mental hospitals or send you to the Gulags of Siberia and if you continued to believe in God, they would execute you for subversion. Since the official state ideology is vehemently atheist, Karl Marx was an Atheist as well as the Communist Politburo.

Not proof, like, at all.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

The worse we would do is pray for you.

X for doubt. The one that partly motivated the Holocaust was Martin Luther's virulent ramblings On the Jews and their Lies after all.

[Godular]

Unfortunately UMN proposes that we shut down the prostitution industry and any other industry he deems indecent in favour of turning a sizeable portion of the populace into hikkikomoris monitored by the state. <.>

Imagine thinking that not having sex makes you a hikkikomori. I'm supposedly the one obsessed with sex despite the fact that you guys apparently can't go without it.

Ain’t so easy to just stop though. Rather impressive amount of instinct that has to be overwritten. People are gonna screw, it’d be best to ensure that if/when they do it is in as safe and educated a manner as possible.

[Antityranicals]

Religious morality not needed to maintain civilization? Really?

So what do you think of the Reign of Terror produced by the Atheist driven French Revolution? And the Gulags produced by the Atheist Soviet Union? Where they better alternatives than religious civilization? What about the Social Darwinist and Spiritual denying Materialist ideologies of Nazism and Communism which caused the most bloodshed in the history of mankind?

Are they better alternatives to Religious morality?

Moral systems can have and have existed without Religion.

Reign of Terror? You think only atheists were involved? Ok. How about the Crusades. All the religious based torture and punishment that existed when they had more control(speaking of Europe).

Saudi Arabia is very religious. Should we introduce beheading, whipping and stoning? Did you know they actually post schedules in the foreign sections so people can avoid these events?

A religious moral system is fine if you want to live it. Where you go wrong is trying to force it on others.

Think about. Who has more faith? Somebody who chose that life style or those who were “Mentored” into it?

Okay, you have named societies where religion has led to evil. I don't dispute that, and I doubt he does either. But you have failed to dispute the claim that religion is required for a free society, I claim I agree with.

[The Black Forrest]

Lives that matter according to your stereotypical republican:

•Unborn babies

Lives that don't matter according to your stereotypical republican:

•Victims of police brutality
•Iraqis
•Palestinians
•Latino children locked in detention centers and separated from their parents
•Poor families that can barely afford food
•Endangered wildlife
•Workers in foreign sweatshops
•Anyone who Donald Trump marks as a dead man walking
•People who live wherever there's a damn ocean
•American soldiers who keep getting sent to the killing fields every twenty years or so

Yeah, Die-hard-toeing-the-line Republicans aren't exactly what I'd call a prime example of Christian virtue and devotion.

Unfortunately; perception is often guided by the loudest. It’s the problem of humility.