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Paper claiming the Sun caused global warming gets retracted

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Neu California
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Paper claiming the Sun caused global warming gets retracted

Postby Neu California » Sat Mar 07, 2020 9:13 pm

(In before" Of course the sun affects the climate")
Ars Technica wrote:A paper published last June was catnip for those who are desperate to explain climate change with anything but human-caused greenhouse gas emissions. It was also apparently wrong enough to be retracted this week by the journal that published it, even though its authors objected.
The paper’s headline conclusion was that it described a newly discovered cycle in the motion of the Sun, one that put us 300 years into what would be a thousand-year warming period for the Earth. Nevermind that we’ve been directly measuring the incoming radiation from the Sun and there has been no increase to explain the observed global warming—or that there is no evidence of a 2,000 year temperature cycle in the paleoclimate record.
Those obvious issues didn't stop some people from taking this study as proof that past warming was natural, and only mild and unavoidable warming lies in our future.
What goes up must come down… in a cycle?
The lead author of the paper was Valentina Zharkova, a mathematician and astrophysicist at Northumbria University who has a bit of a track record. If you’ve ever read one of the dozens (hundreds?) of UK tabloid stories declaring that we're about to start an impending “mini ice age” driven by a declining solar cycle, it was probably supported by a quote from Professor Zharkova. A mini ice age can be difficult to fit into a 1,000 year warming trend, of course, but that didn't stop Zharkova from publishing her new claim.
Immediately after her paper was published in Scientific Reports—an open access journal among the sprawling family published under the same roof as Nature—criticism of the work started coming in. In fact, much of it is documented in a long comment thread on PubPeer, a site designed to host a sort of post-publication, public peer review. (That truly incredible thread is recommended reading, dear reader.)
The objections started with Ken Rice, a University of Edinburgh astrophysicist and climate blogger. He challenged the paper’s central claim—that the distance between the Earth and the Sun would change as a result of the cycle they were describing. And that’s where things got really wild.
Zharkova engaged in a spirited back-and-forth with Rice that generated more heat than light. Both agreed that the Sun is known to wobble around the precise gravitational balance point of the Solar System, pulled slightly off its mark by the attraction of the larger planets like Jupiter and Saturn. But the study seemed to ignore the fact that the Earth’s orbit also shifts in response to those giant planets, causing it to maintain a constant distance from the Sun. The paper instead assumed that Earth’s orbit was unaffected so that any motion of the Sun would alter its distance from the Earth. If that’s not true, then there has been no change in the strength of sunlight reaching the Earth, and there is no mechanism for their centuries-long warming trend.
As several people tried in vain to point out that this constant Earth-Sun relationship is well-known, Zharkova posted, “Oh dear, You suggest that the Earth does follow in its orbit this solar inertial motion? And its orbit is not stable? You have to have a very vivid imagination assuming that the Earth moves like a drunken men...[sic]”
At one point, after Rice provided a simple orbital simulation calculating the gravitational interactions in the Solar System, Zharkova replied, “Your simulations are extremely biased by the idea you believe in.”
(Zharkova also demonstrates an affinity for an array of arguments against the clear evidence for human-caused climate change, sharing (unprompted) claims that humans are not responsible for increasing atmospheric CO2, challenging the accuracy of global temperature data, and failing to grasp the important difference between local temperature data and global records.)
On Wednesday, Scientific Reports—for which Zharkova is listed as an editor, by the way—formally retracted the paper. The retraction note states that “concerns were raised regarding the interpretation of how the Earth-Sun distance changes over time and that some of the assumptions on which analyses presented in the Article are based are incorrect.” One of the paper’s four authors apparently agreed to retract the paper, while the other three (Zharkova among them) objected.
When contacted by Retraction Watch for their post on this, Zharkova told them, “We consider this retraction by the Editor of Scientific Reports as a shameful step to cover up the truthful facts about the solar and Earth orbital motion reported by the retracted paper, in our replies to the reviewer comments, and in the further papers.”
Correlation is not cause for celebration
In a blog post noting the retraction, NASA climate scientist Gavin Schmidt reflected on the ever-growing catalog of studies claiming to find solar cycles in Earth’s climate. “[T]here has been a long history of people assuming that they 'know' that solar cycles have an effect and then just looking ever more deeply for the mechanism,” he writes.
The problem is that if you try enough data sets—of local rather than global temperatures, for example—you can eventually find the cycle correlation you want. Extrapolating that correlation into the future often makes for splashy headlines at outlets that don’t know how to cover science, have a fondness for hype, or both.
Schmidt points out that the predictions never seem to pan out. Math, it turns out, won’t tell you much about the behavior of the climate system without some physics behind it.
That rub is on full display in the PubPeer discussion of this paper. In response to challenges that the study’s Solar System model contradicts physics, Valentina Zharkova repeatedly seems to argue that their correlation is too good to be wrong. Obviously, it doesn’t work that way. Correlations generate testable hypotheses, and some of those hypotheses will undoubtedly be wrong. It could be that the correlation is explained by something else—including the possibility that the correlation is a meaningless quirk of your data set or statistical method.
And in this case, a poorly tested correlational hypothesis was certainly in no position to overturn the positively mountainous pile of physics-based evidence that clearly shows humans have caused modern global warming. No matter how badly some people liked the sound of it.


The comment thread on PubPeer for the interested.

So, another strike against climate change denialists, but I'm wondering how the hell this woman got a professorship in Astrophysics without knowing that yes, gravity from the planets affect other planets and that the earth's tilt causes seasons (something I remember learning when I was eight). Seriously, read the PubPeer thread, it's a ball for all the most ridiculous reasons.

Anyway, do you think this will slow the climate change denialism in any way? And does professor Zharkova really deserve her professorship after this ridiculous study she edited was withdrawn?
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Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Sun Mar 08, 2020 1:13 am

I haven't read the PubPeer thread, I might get around to that.

I wholeheartedly support the new generation of open scientific journals (fuck you Eselvier etc) but unfortunately their peer review process is not as rigorous. The idea that any "study" however bad deserves to be published is dangerous. Because the general public can read scientific papers (well some of them, not quantum physics) and get the gist, but without the knowledge to assess whether they're good science, sloppy science, or not science at all.
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Postby Grenartia » Sun Mar 08, 2020 1:25 am

Question: did she get her degree from a cereal box?
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Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Sun Mar 08, 2020 4:24 am

The most troubling omission to me, is not checking on solar radiation at Earth, which we have excellent measurements of from orbit.
I mean the mistakes she made are numerous and terrible, including apparently thinking summer is caused by the north or south hemispheres being closer to the sun?! but she actually went ahead with the idea that irradiance had been increasing for decades (due to sun wobble) when there are measurements showing it has not.

The news isn't that the article was retracted. It's that it took eight months!
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Postby Rojava Free State » Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:19 am

How much longer are we gonna deny the reality that we are heading toward a disaster?

I swear we're acting like kids. We think we're invincible and that this bad shit won't happen to us at all but that's not how the world works. If we don't do something, our society is gonna get hit really hard. There will be casualties.
Last edited by Rojava Free State on Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Alvecia » Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:36 am

Rojava Free State wrote:How much longer are we gonna deny the reality that we are heading toward a disaster?

For as long as it remains profitable to do so.

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Postby Krasny-Volny » Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:41 am

I’m sick and tired of people who suggest there are other contributing factors to global climate change than carbon emissions getting labeled as “climate change deniers”.

That being said, I also totally disagree with the paper. The vast majority of climate change is caused by human activity.
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Postby Krasny-Volny » Sun Mar 08, 2020 7:46 am

Rojava Free State wrote:How much longer are we gonna deny the reality that we are heading toward a disaster?

I swear we're acting like kids. We think we're invincible and that this bad shit won't happen to us at all but that's not how the world works. If we don't do something, our society is gonna get hit really hard. There will be casualties.


There are already casualties. People starving in the Sahel and dying in wildfires that are now burning more territory during a longer fire season than ever before.

It’s too late. Any attempt to reduce one of the many thousands of aspects of human activity - both industrial and agricultural - which affect the climate is futile. Accept that it’s too late to change anything and a) plan for the future if you truly believe a major climate-related global apocalypse event is coming, or b) do what most people do and just live life to the fullest, come what may.

Rest assured that your individual anxiety accomplishes nothing.
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Postby State of Turelisa » Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:02 am

Quote from an infamous British politician in a speech about a different topic, which is relevant here:

In seeking to [provide against preventable evils] [statesmanship] encounters obstacles which are deeply rooted in human nature.
One is that by the very order of things such evils are not demonstrable until they have occurred: at each stage in their onset there is room for doubt and for dispute whether they be real or imaginary.
By the same token, they attract little attention in comparison with current troubles, which are both indisputable and pressing: whence the besetting temptation of all politics to concern itself with the immediate present at the expense of the future.
Those who knowingly shirk it deserve, and not infrequently receive, the curses of those who come after.

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Postby Greed and Death » Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:21 am

I mean we would be an ice ball without the sun so in a sense it causes all global warming. Not really what people are referring to when global warming or climate change is used.
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Postby The Black Forrest » Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:22 am

It’s true! Every time I get with sun light; I feel warmth!
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Postby Salandriagado » Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:46 am

Neu California wrote:
Anyway, do you think this will slow the climate change denialism in any way?


Of course not. That belief is not based on evidence, so no amount of evidence will change it.

Krasny-Volny wrote:I’m sick and tired of people who suggest there are other contributing factors to global climate change than carbon emissions getting labeled as “climate change deniers”.

That being said, I also totally disagree with the paper. The vast majority of climate change is caused by human activity.


Somewhat over 100%, in fact - the natural drivers seem to be in a (slight) cooling trend, as of the latest figures I've got to hand.
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Notice that the link is to the notes from a university course on probability. You clearly have nothing beyond the most absurdly simplistic understanding of the subject.
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Postby Aclion » Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:52 am

Greed and Death wrote:I mean we would be an ice ball without the sun so in a sense it causes all global warming. Not really what people are referring to when global warming or climate change is used.

Not entirely true. We also get heat from radioactive decay in the earth's core.
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Rojava Free State
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Postby Rojava Free State » Sun Mar 08, 2020 9:01 am

Krasny-Volny wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:How much longer are we gonna deny the reality that we are heading toward a disaster?

I swear we're acting like kids. We think we're invincible and that this bad shit won't happen to us at all but that's not how the world works. If we don't do something, our society is gonna get hit really hard. There will be casualties.


There are already casualties. People starving in the Sahel and dying in wildfires that are now burning more territory during a longer fire season than ever before.

It’s too late. Any attempt to reduce one of the many thousands of aspects of human activity - both industrial and agricultural - which affect the climate is futile. Accept that it’s too late to change anything and a) plan for the future if you truly believe a major climate-related global apocalypse event is coming, or b) do what most people do and just live life to the fullest, come what may.

Rest assured that your individual anxiety accomplishes nothing.


I mean I'm more likely to be murdered than killed by Global Warming, just based on where I live, but I'm still worried for the future of our society.
Rojava Free State wrote:Listen yall. I'm only gonna say it once but I want you to remember it. This ain't a world fit for good men. It seems like you gotta be monstrous just to make it. Gotta have a little bit of darkness within you just to survive. You gotta stoop low everyday it seems like. Stoop all the way down to the devil in these times. And then one day you look in the mirror and you realize that you ain't you anymore. You're just another monster, and thanks to your actions, someone else will eventually become as warped and twisted as you. Never forget that the best of us are just the best of a bad lot. Being at the top of a pile of feces doesn't make you anything but shit like the rest. Never forget that.

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Postby Rojava Free State » Sun Mar 08, 2020 9:02 am

Aclion wrote:
Greed and Death wrote:I mean we would be an ice ball without the sun so in a sense it causes all global warming. Not really what people are referring to when global warming or climate change is used.

Not entirely true. We also get heat from radioactive decay in the earth's core.


Much of it is also a result of how badly Pusha T burned Drake during their beef. Global warming was only worsened by the heat he was bringing
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Postby Bombadil » Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:24 pm

A couple of disturbing things about this, the first is how she got into the UK educational system in the first place, it seems she made it onto an exchange program and then translated that into a university position. Granted Northumbria University isn't exactly a leading light in British universities but anyhoo..

..the second is how often she's cited in the media with her clearly unscientific papers.

Anyway, as to the question..

Anyway, do you think this will slow the climate change denialism in any way?


No, people are still citing bullshit from the 70's, and as we've long noted on NSG, on any given topic there will be 25% of the population who have batshit insane opinions.
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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:30 pm

Are we sure she’s actually an astrophysicist? Her article reads like the ravings of a looney.
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Postby Bombadil » Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:38 pm

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:Are we sure she’s actually an astrophysicist? Her article reads like the ravings of a looney.


I'm not one to disparage the quality of teaching at the University of Kyiv in the 80's under Soviet control.. however I also wouldn't be surprised if the physics department at the University of Northumbria received funding from some anti-climate group either.
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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Sun Mar 08, 2020 8:40 pm

Bombadil wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:Are we sure she’s actually an astrophysicist? Her article reads like the ravings of a looney.


I'm not one to disparage the quality of teaching at the University of Kyiv in the 80's under Soviet control.. however I also wouldn't be surprised if the physics department at the University of Northumbria received funding from some anti-climate group either.


It gave me a headache.
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Postby Liriena » Sun Mar 08, 2020 9:20 pm

See, this is one of the reasons why sometimes I feel myself flirt with more authoritarian socialism: because some problems are serious enough that they threaten the lives of countless innocent human beings, and allowing misinformation and malicious, harmful propaganda to spread on them is justifiable as a matter of principle, but nevertheless disastrous for whatever hope we might have of solving those problems.

Rationalism is cool but we've been through enough since the 19th century to know that blindly trusting "pure reason" to guide people towards reaching the correct, logical, evidence-based consensus that will solve our problems is a recipe for disappointment at best and catastrophe at worst. Because political discourse, and what surrounds it, is not made only of "pure reason", and how we approach it is not based on "pure reason" along either.

Climate change is real but no amount of evidence is going to cut through all the layers upon layers of ideology that have been built to ensure that the problem and its solutions are rejected by a sizeable enough portion of the population and their political representatives. At least probably not in time for humanity to actually come together and do what needs to be done. Every bit of discredited research, conspiracy theories and half-baked propaganda that gets the chance to spread and get assimilated into the dominant ideology is another obstacle to actually getting through to those who are still in the denialist camp in good faith, or at least genuine ignorance.

But then I remember how I'm still committed to the principle that people are inherently good and will make the right choice if you give them free access to all the information available and let them participate with as much liberty as possible in public discourse.

Anyway, do you think this will slow the climate change denialism in any way?

No, because climate change denialism thrives on the presumption that it's the "reasonable underdog" against the "alarmist" science establishment. They can and probably will just treat this as evil censorship from the Great Other and claim that the paper was right.

And does professor Zharkova really deserve her professorship after this ridiculous study she edited was withdrawn?

I'm still a believer in redemption, but she could do with actual encourgament to redeem herself so...







...man that was a pessimistic post on my part.
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Postby Costa Fierro » Sun Mar 08, 2020 9:23 pm

Grenartia wrote:Question: did she get her degree from a cereal box?


You'd be surprised at how often people wave around their qualifications as if it's relevant to their ability to produce credible scientific analyses.
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Postby Risottia » Mon Mar 09, 2020 1:05 am

Costa Fierro wrote:
Grenartia wrote:Question: did she get her degree from a cereal box?


You'd be surprised at how often people wave around their qualifications as if it's relevant to their ability to produce credible scientific analyses.


You'd be surprised at how often people who can't even write a correct sentence in their own native language get a university degree, tbh.
.

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Postby Dumb Ideologies » Mon Mar 09, 2020 4:24 am

Risottia wrote:
Costa Fierro wrote:
You'd be surprised at how often people wave around their qualifications as if it's relevant to their ability to produce credible scientific analyses.


You'd be surprised at how often people who can't even write a correct sentence in their own native language get a university degree, tbh.


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Postby Rojava Free State » Mon Mar 09, 2020 4:52 am

Risottia wrote:
Costa Fierro wrote:
You'd be surprised at how often people wave around their qualifications as if it's relevant to their ability to produce credible scientific analyses.


You'd be surprised at how often people who can't even write a correct sentence in their own native language get a university degree, tbh.


some person: "hi my name is dr Kenyatta Jamal Mohammed, and I'm a professor in race relations theory"

Me: oh so you don't teach anything at all. You just use a lot of big words to say nothing

Yeah a lot of college professors aren't actually that smart and/or teach bullshit classes.

Another reason I think college is overrated. I'm a much bigger fan of trade school because you actually learn some important stuff and put your back into your living.
Rojava Free State wrote:Listen yall. I'm only gonna say it once but I want you to remember it. This ain't a world fit for good men. It seems like you gotta be monstrous just to make it. Gotta have a little bit of darkness within you just to survive. You gotta stoop low everyday it seems like. Stoop all the way down to the devil in these times. And then one day you look in the mirror and you realize that you ain't you anymore. You're just another monster, and thanks to your actions, someone else will eventually become as warped and twisted as you. Never forget that the best of us are just the best of a bad lot. Being at the top of a pile of feces doesn't make you anything but shit like the rest. Never forget that.

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Postby The Archregimancy » Mon Mar 09, 2020 5:29 am

Risottia wrote:
Costa Fierro wrote:
You'd be surprised at how often people wave around their qualifications as if it's relevant to their ability to produce credible scientific analyses.


You'd be surprised at how often people who can't even write a correct sentence in their own native language get a university degree, tbh.


Me am having three degrees with lots of letters in names; me am using big wordz now.

Me like using big words.

Me prove univerzit oonivers yooni big skool for smart people is dumb place.

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