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Any hope of a lawsuit against religion?

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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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Any hope of a lawsuit against religion?

Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:05 pm

Religion has succeeded in smearing all humanity as hopelessly evil without it. You have prominent advocates of Christianity blaming atheism for the actions of some of the 20th century's worst mass murderers, as if belief in a God whose supposed edicts aren't really clearly stated would've stopped them.

Meanwhile in the real world, the correlation is clear.

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Whatever "sins" religion is really meant to combat, violence isn't one against which it is particularly effective, leaving one to wonder about the moral priorities of those in charge.

We see signs of it, though, in the Catholic church's opposition to condom use in Africa, spreading AIDS even further. You could argue it's not their fault people failed to adhere to monogamy, right? But continued opposition seems to reflect either willfull ignorance or a prioritization of monogamy over human lives. (Or possibly, on the part of the church hierarchy, "higher Catholic birthrates so that Catholic parents who raise their kids Catholic outbreed everyone else.")

Then there's diseases that aren't known to be transmitted sexually, like Parkinson's or diabetes or cancer. Embryonic stem cell research could've cured them if not for religion holding it back.

Is there any hope of a lawsuit against religion for all the deaths it has caused? Would we be able to get them on slander, reckless endangerment, or both and more?

How broad or sweeping could it be amongst plaintiffs? Would it has to be anyone who currently has an illness ESCR could've cured, or any disease attributable to condom opposition in Africa? Could it be all humanity, since any one of us could end up with something ESCR could've cured?

How broad or sweeping could it be amongst defendants? Would it have to target individuals within individual denominations who made these judgment calls, or could "progressive" Christians be indicted as accomplices in this by legitimizing religion's continued miserable existence in the eyes of popular opinion, to whatever extent popular opinion isn't on the same page as the church?

Don't get me wrong, to me the most beautiful image is abortion patients, LGBTQ activists, stem cell patients, HIV patients, and everyone else who's been screwed over by religion dancing in unison on its ashes. But in the name of pragmatism, would a lawsuit seeking compensation for this be a good way to reimburse those screwed over?
Last edited by LimaUniformNovemberAlpha on Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:07 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:1. The PRC is not a Communist State, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
2. The CCP is not a Communist Party, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
3. Xi Jinping and his cronies are not Communists, as they have shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.

How do we know this? Because the first step toward Communism is Socialism, and none of the aforementioned are even remotely Socialist in any way, shape, or form.

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Postby Galloism » Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:15 pm

I'm going to ignore all the hysteria and cut straight to the heart of the matter.

What centralized board of directors will represent "religion" in the suit? Who are the common owner(s) of "religion" that you could sue it/them?
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Postby Polish Prussian Commonwealth » Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:18 pm

I dunno, can you sue the CEO of Racism?
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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:18 pm

Galloism wrote:I'm going to ignore all the hysteria and cut straight to the heart of the matter.

What centralized board of directors will represent "religion" in the suit? Who are the common owner(s) of "religion" that you could sue it/them?

Clergy in the different churches. Catholicism, protestantism, orthodoxy, etc...

...would it need to be targeted at a specific denomination, or could it be done simultaneously to several denominations so that with different denominations you see which charges stick? (I have a feeling "one denomination at a time" might lead to Catholics asking why we don't sue the protestants first, protestants asking why we don't sue the Catholics first, etc...)
Last edited by LimaUniformNovemberAlpha on Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:1. The PRC is not a Communist State, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
2. The CCP is not a Communist Party, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
3. Xi Jinping and his cronies are not Communists, as they have shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.

How do we know this? Because the first step toward Communism is Socialism, and none of the aforementioned are even remotely Socialist in any way, shape, or form.

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Postby Ifreann » Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:20 pm

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:Is there any hope of a lawsuit against religion for all the deaths it has caused?

No.
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Galloism
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Postby Galloism » Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:20 pm

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:
Galloism wrote:I'm going to ignore all the hysteria and cut straight to the heart of the matter.

What centralized board of directors will represent "religion" in the suit? Who are the common owner(s) of "religion" that you could sue it/them?

Clergy in the different churches. Catholicism, protestantism, orthodoxy, etc...

...would it need to be targeted at a specific denomination?

Yes, you can't sue religion just like you can't sue conservatism or liberalism.

There's a lack of common ownership and control, which is needed for an entity to be one entity (and therefore a legal "person"), and only legal persons can be named in court suits.
Last edited by Galloism on Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Venicilian: wow. Jesus hung around with everyone. boys, girls, rich, poor(mostly), sick, healthy, etc. in fact, i bet he even went up to gay people and tried to heal them so they would be straight.
The Parkus Empire: Being serious on NSG is like wearing a suit to a nude beach.
New Kereptica: Since power is changed energy over time, an increase in power would mean, in this case, an increase in energy. As energy is equivalent to mass and the density of the government is static, the volume of the government must increase.


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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:26 pm

Galloism wrote:
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:Clergy in the different churches. Catholicism, protestantism, orthodoxy, etc...

...would it need to be targeted at a specific denomination?

Yes, you can't sue religion just like you can't sue conservatism or liberalism.

There's a lack of common ownership and control, which is needed for an entity to be one entity (and therefore a legal "person"), and only legal persons can be named in court suits.

Fair enough, then.

So what of the notion of "simultaneous" lawsuits against the leaders of different denominations, such that they can't hide behind the "why are you suing only us and not them" platitude?
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:1. The PRC is not a Communist State, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
2. The CCP is not a Communist Party, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
3. Xi Jinping and his cronies are not Communists, as they have shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.

How do we know this? Because the first step toward Communism is Socialism, and none of the aforementioned are even remotely Socialist in any way, shape, or form.

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Rojava Free State
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Postby Rojava Free State » Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:28 pm

Religion is the opiate of the masses. Like opiates, you take it when you're feeling hopeless and find a lack of any other meaning in your life.

I dont want these religions sued. I want them gone. I want there to come a day when the last of their adherents says "your full of shit" and abandons the church to decay like the ruins of Rome. However, being the realist I am, I doubt this day will ever come and I know history isn't moving endlessly toward progress so all we can do is separate ourselves as much as possible from the forces of darkness we call organized faith.
Last edited by Rojava Free State on Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Rojava Free State wrote:Listen yall. I'm only gonna say it once but I want you to remember it. This ain't a world fit for good men. It seems like you gotta be monstrous just to make it. Gotta have a little bit of darkness within you just to survive. You gotta stoop low everyday it seems like. Stoop all the way down to the devil in these times. And then one day you look in the mirror and you realize that you ain't you anymore. You're just another monster, and thanks to your actions, someone else will eventually become as warped and twisted as you. Never forget that the best of us are just the best of a bad lot. Being at the top of a pile of feces doesn't make you anything but shit like the rest. Never forget that.

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Nanatsu no Tsuki
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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:28 pm

This thread reminds me of the plot of the Indian movie OMG, where the main character, after his anti-religious behavior and losing his livelihood in an earthquake, and being told by his insurance that his policy wouldn’t pay for “acts of God”, decides to sue all Gods. And where does the lawsuit goes to? To every religious institution in India: Hindu, Catholic (Christian), and Muslim.
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Postby Rojava Free State » Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:29 pm

Galloism wrote:
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:Clergy in the different churches. Catholicism, protestantism, orthodoxy, etc...

...would it need to be targeted at a specific denomination?

Yes, you can't sue religion just like you can't sue conservatism or liberalism.

There's a lack of common ownership and control, which is needed for an entity to be one entity (and therefore a legal "person"), and only legal persons can be named in court suits.


Wait, then how are people hunting the CEO of racism?
Rojava Free State wrote:Listen yall. I'm only gonna say it once but I want you to remember it. This ain't a world fit for good men. It seems like you gotta be monstrous just to make it. Gotta have a little bit of darkness within you just to survive. You gotta stoop low everyday it seems like. Stoop all the way down to the devil in these times. And then one day you look in the mirror and you realize that you ain't you anymore. You're just another monster, and thanks to your actions, someone else will eventually become as warped and twisted as you. Never forget that the best of us are just the best of a bad lot. Being at the top of a pile of feces doesn't make you anything but shit like the rest. Never forget that.

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Postby Pacomia » Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:32 pm

You can't sue an idea.

The idea of suing religion is ridiculous- how would that even work? Besides, religion in general isn't the problem, it's extremism.
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Samudera Darussalam
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Postby Samudera Darussalam » Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:36 pm

Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:This thread reminds me of the plot of the Indian movie OMG, where the main character, after his anti-religious behavior and losing his livelihood in an earthquake, and being told by his insurance that his policy wouldn’t pay for “acts of God”, decides to sue all Gods. And where does the lawsuit goes to? To every religious institution in India: Hindu, Catholic (Christian), and Muslim.

Pfft, that sounds amusing as hell. I can almost imagine the bewilderment on the priests'/imams'/clergies' face when they receive the lawsuit.

On the topic itself, no? Religion is a set of ideas and so on depending on the definition and since it doesn't manifest physically, I don't think it can be sued. The closest thing is as in Nana's quote, the institutions themselves but....Idk.
Last edited by Samudera Darussalam on Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Rojava Free State
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Postby Rojava Free State » Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:37 pm

Pacomia wrote:You can't sue an idea.

The idea of suing religion is ridiculous- how would that even work? Besides, religion in general isn't the problem, it's extremism.


Which is why there are passages in the bible itself that promote violence either on behalf of god or directly due to god
Rojava Free State wrote:Listen yall. I'm only gonna say it once but I want you to remember it. This ain't a world fit for good men. It seems like you gotta be monstrous just to make it. Gotta have a little bit of darkness within you just to survive. You gotta stoop low everyday it seems like. Stoop all the way down to the devil in these times. And then one day you look in the mirror and you realize that you ain't you anymore. You're just another monster, and thanks to your actions, someone else will eventually become as warped and twisted as you. Never forget that the best of us are just the best of a bad lot. Being at the top of a pile of feces doesn't make you anything but shit like the rest. Never forget that.

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Postby Risottia » Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:37 pm

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:
Galloism wrote:Yes, you can't sue religion just like you can't sue conservatism or liberalism.

There's a lack of common ownership and control, which is needed for an entity to be one entity (and therefore a legal "person"), and only legal persons can be named in court suits.

Fair enough, then.

So what of the notion of "simultaneous" lawsuits against the leaders of different denominations, such that they can't hide behind the "why are you suing only us and not them" platitude?


So, exactly, what would be the charges against, let's say, Pope Francis or Queen Elizabeth II or Queen Margrethe II? According to what code?
By the way, Francis, Elizabeth and Margrethe are Heads of State.
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Postby Purgatio » Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:37 pm

....you kinda need a legal person to be the Defendant, so who is the legal person being sued? Islam, Inc. or Judaism, Inc., Christianity, Inc., or Buddhism, Inc. isn't really a thing, you know. I guess Vatican City is a legal person in international law, but suing Vatican City in any national court would be barred under State immunity and par in parem non habet imperium.

Anyways, answer's clearly NO.
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Postby Nanatsu no Tsuki » Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:41 pm

Samudera Darussalam wrote:
Nanatsu no Tsuki wrote:This thread reminds me of the plot of the Indian movie OMG, where the main character, after his anti-religious behavior and losing his livelihood in an earthquake, and being told by his insurance that his policy wouldn’t pay for “acts of God”, decides to sue all Gods. And where does the lawsuit goes to? To every religious institution in India: Hindu, Catholic (Christian), and Muslim.

Pfft, that sounds amusing as hell. I can almost imagine the bewilderment on the priests'/imams'/clergies' face when they receive the lawsuit.

On the topic itself, no? Religion is a set of ideas and so on depending on the definition and since it doesn't manifest physically, I don't think it can be sued. The closest thing is as in Nana's quote, the institutions themselves but....Idk.


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Postby Ayytaly » Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:48 pm

Interesting how most former colonial powers are happy as hell, yet half of Africa and America are somehow miserable. Is it really religion's fault, or just the European man's insatiable lust for power and wealth over the world to blame?
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Postby Valrifell » Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:50 pm

I don't think the two graphs you show illustrate a strong correlation like you think it does.
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Postby Tinhampton » Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:53 pm

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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:Meanwhile in the real world, the correlation is clear.
>>> "2015 Global Peace Index" passed off as accurate indicator of global violence rates in 2020
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erm... OK?

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:Parkinson's or diabetes or cancer. Embryonic stem cell research could've cured them if not for religion holding it back.
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Postby Heloin » Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:54 pm

Valrifell wrote:I don't think the two graphs you show illustrate a strong correlation like you think it does.

Zambia being all nice and peaceful.
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Any hope of a lawsuit against religion?

Postby Deacarsia » Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:56 pm

This whole topic is absurd.
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Postby Shokpos » Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:58 pm

could "progressive" Christians be indicted as accomplices

Are you fucking kidding me, seriously, you're full of shit.
Are you seriously going to indict the people now, and not the institution, I know there are some assholes in every religion but seriously. Punishing the people in place of punishing the institution is ridiculous and doesnt help at all. That is like suing every German citizen for the crimes of Nazis.

abortion patients, LGBTQ activists, stem cell patients, HIV patients, and everyone else who's been screwed over by religion dancing in unison on its ashes

Why destroy when you could fix. History has been a tale of modernizing and/or fixing old things. Radio signals to WiFi, fireworks to rockets, bows to guns, balloons to airplanes ect.
Destroying things has gotten us nowhere, and only pushes us back, and you cannot deny that religion has played a pivotal role in moving forward, name 5 revolutionary scientists from before 1500 who didnt have religion in their lives. Why destroy something that 63% of the world participates in actively, when you could change it, and these movements already exist. I don't think it's religion that destroys things per se, but those who wish to destroy what they don't like, and you are coming out to look like someone who wishes to destroy

Lets talk about how impossible this idea is. You plan to sue 4.9 billion people for the crime of their beliefs just because in the past their beliefs caused crimes. What percent of those people now commit crimes for their religion. You act like every person who follows a religion is a mindless drone who can't think or question for themselves, religious institutions don't represent all of their followers, or vice versa.
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Postby Nagatar Karumuttu Chettiar » Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:58 pm

Those graphs show a poor correlation at best, and we already know there are different underlying factors in wartorn regions.

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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:58 pm

Purgatio wrote:Vatican City in any national court would be barred under State immunity

What about those who ship Catholic churchgoers' money from other countries to Vatican City? Would lawsuits against them be actionable?
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:1. The PRC is not a Communist State, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
2. The CCP is not a Communist Party, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
3. Xi Jinping and his cronies are not Communists, as they have shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.

How do we know this? Because the first step toward Communism is Socialism, and none of the aforementioned are even remotely Socialist in any way, shape, or form.

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Samudera Darussalam
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Postby Samudera Darussalam » Sat Mar 07, 2020 2:59 pm

Heloin wrote:
Valrifell wrote:I don't think the two graphs you show illustrate a strong correlation like you think it does.

Zambia being all nice and peaceful.

A lot of countries that are said in the graph as "religious" are actually rather peaceful, such as Bhutan, Mongolia, Senegal, etc.
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