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Has atheism made the world a better place?

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United Muscovite Nations
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Postby United Muscovite Nations » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:39 am

Panslav wrote:
Hakons wrote:
What if I don't want you to teach secular morality to my children? Is that a similar situation? Why do you single out religious belief, when society imposes morality on every child? Further, why is it wrong to teach good morality. Would it be analogous to child rape if a child was taught that murder is wrong?


Religion preaches about things that probably don't exist, atheism doesn't. Religion is a postive claim, atheism (as a whole) isn't. Religion wastes your time on useless things like prayer, atheism doesn't.

Atheism in the modern day is a sort of creed that comes pre-packaged with its own ideology that does make positive claims, for the most part.
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Chan Island
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Postby Chan Island » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:40 am

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Panslav wrote:
Religion preaches about things that probably don't exist, atheism doesn't. Religion is a postive claim, atheism (as a whole) isn't. Religion wastes your time on useless things like prayer, atheism doesn't.

Atheism in the modern day is a sort of creed that comes pre-packaged with its own ideology that does make positive claims, for the most part.


Such as?
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Arkhane
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Postby Arkhane » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:40 am

Short answer: No.

Longer answer: There have always been people who never believed in God/gods, even in ancient times, and their deeds and accomplishments in creating a better or worse world often had very little to do with their lack of faith.

Personally, I can see that nihilism and hedonism (which are often subsets of atheism, especially with younger non-believers) didn't really add an improvement to the generations and society in general.

Atheism simply shifts worship and the source of meaning and morality from God to yourself. At the end of the day, it is human nature to search for something to value and care for.

No human can actually "not worship" anything.

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Satuga
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Postby Satuga » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:40 am

Antityranicals wrote:Not at all. The idea that the universe came to be without a cause is simply senseless. Claiming that you don't know much about that cause is respectable, that is the position of deism. But to claim that it has no cause is simply daft.

There's multiple theories, the big bang, the big crunch, heat death. Also if saying there is no cause is daft, then what about god? Who or what created god? Surely god must have come from somewhere and not just suddenly popped into existence.
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Geneviev
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Postby Geneviev » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:41 am

Antityranicals wrote:
Geneviev wrote:That's not necessarily accurate. Although atheism hasn't made the world a better place, it has been incredibly beneficial to individual people.

Whom, exactly, has atheism benefitted?

Every person who was prevented from thinking by their religion.
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Postby The Emerald Legion » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:41 am

Chan Island wrote:
Antityranicals wrote:Whom, exactly, has atheism benefitted?


Me? I was a totally miserable sod when I dabbled in belief.

Also when should I point out that the list of the least religious places on Earth overlaps pretty well with the list of the most prosperous, equal and cohesive societies on Earth?


And yet, the PRC and the Soviet Union were officially atheist.

It's almost like there's other reasons for that prosperity.
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Duvniask
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Postby Duvniask » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:41 am

United Muscovite Nations wrote:
Duvniask wrote:I think they might be referring to the view of religion as false consciousness, which seems to be a fairly accurate interpretation of Marx.

Then they're misphrasing it badly.

I don't think it would be wrong to say that for someone like Marx, religion helps people in a terrible world, but it does so by pulling the wool over their eyes and preventing the actualization of a better world. In that sense, religion manipulates people into complacence.
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Satuga
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Postby Satuga » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:41 am

Arkhane wrote:Short answer: No.

Longer answer: There have always been people who never believed in God/gods, even in ancient times, and their deeds and accomplishments in creating a better or worse world often had very little to do with their lack of faith.

Personally, I can see that nihilism and hedonism (which are often subsets of atheism, especially with younger non-believers) didn't really add an improvement to the generations and society in general.

Atheism simply shifts worship and the source of meaning and morality from God to yourself. At the end of the day, it is human nature to search for something to value and care for.

No human can actually "not worship" anything.

I disagree, reasoning? What about atheists who don't like themselves?
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Panslav
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Postby Panslav » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:42 am

Arkhane wrote:Short answer: No.

Longer answer: There have always been people who never believed in God/gods, even in ancient times, and their deeds and accomplishments in creating a better or worse world often had very little to do with their lack of faith.

Personally, I can see that nihilism and hedonism (which are often subsets of atheism, especially with younger non-believers) didn't really add an improvement to the generations and society in general.

Atheism simply shifts worship and the source of meaning and morality from God to yourself. At the end of the day, it is human nature to search for something to value and care for.

No human can actually "not worship" anything.


Worship is useless action. Worship is just words, words aren't swords, they don't matter. Actions do.
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Geneviev
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Postby Geneviev » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:43 am

Chan Island wrote:
Geneviev wrote:No. The world can only be made a better place by equality and protection of human dignity. Neither religion nor atheism can accomplish that.


But religion has become a default refuge and excuse for those who seek to justify inequality or destroying human dignity.

Religion is one of many excuses. It's a very useful excuse, but protecting a revolution or something like that works just as well and doesn't require a God.
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Arkhane
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Postby Arkhane » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:43 am

Satuga wrote:
Antityranicals wrote:Not at all. The idea that the universe came to be without a cause is simply senseless. Claiming that you don't know much about that cause is respectable, that is the position of deism. But to claim that it has no cause is simply daft.

There's multiple theories, the big bang, the big crunch, heat death. Also if saying there is no cause is daft, then what about god? Who or what created god? Surely god must have come from somewhere and not just suddenly popped into existence.


You forgot the steady state theory. An omnipotent and eternal God, by nature, has no beginning or end, and therefore exist outside of time or constraints of cause and effect.

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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:44 am

Antityranicals wrote:Ladies and gentlemen, Atheism is a meritless delusion which defies all sense and restricts the mind, plain and simple.

Based on what exactly? On what are you basing this assertion?

Antityranicals wrote:There is an argument to be made that deism made the world a better place, but Atheism has dulled the minds of generations, and must be fought and killed on the intellectual battlefield.

I note that you neither make said argument, or any argument for your previous one either...

Perhaps you don't have arguments for either, and are merely trying to make us *think* you have them? Hm?
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Panslav
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Postby Panslav » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:44 am

The Emerald Legion wrote:
Chan Island wrote:
Me? I was a totally miserable sod when I dabbled in belief.

Also when should I point out that the list of the least religious places on Earth overlaps pretty well with the list of the most prosperous, equal and cohesive societies on Earth?


And yet, the PRC and the Soviet Union were officially atheist.

It's almost like there's other reasons for that prosperity.


Soviet Union was prosperous is its own way. Until people like Gorbachev came and ruined it.
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Postby Aureumterra » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:45 am

Alvecia wrote:I would say the finger should be pointed at secularism rather than atheism. The latter being something of a subset of the former.

Secularism I would say has definitely made the world a better place.

This

The separation of church and state has brought the West to where it is right now, without secularism the West would still be the shithole that the Middle East is

Atheism however, in a greater sense, has brought on a devaluation of human life. Not just abortion, but also movements to not have kids, and even some radical Malthusian movements which are borderline Thanos
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Panslav
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Postby Panslav » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:45 am

Arkhane wrote:
Satuga wrote:There's multiple theories, the big bang, the big crunch, heat death. Also if saying there is no cause is daft, then what about god? Who or what created god? Surely god must have come from somewhere and not just suddenly popped into existence.


You forgot the steady state theory. An omnipotent and eternal God, by nature, has no beginning or end, and therefore exist outside of time or constraints of cause and effect.


There's also a hypothesis that universe always existed, and just goes from period of expansion and contraction.
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Political compass results:
Economic Left/Right: -8.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.97
8Values results:
Economic Axis: 83.3% Equality (Socialist)
Diplomatic Axis: 78.9% Internationalism (Internationalist)
Civil Axis: 80.2% Liberty (Libertarian)
Societal Axis: 95.1% Progress (Revolutionary)

Total: Libertarian Socialism

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Arkhane
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Postby Arkhane » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:46 am

Satuga wrote:
Arkhane wrote:Short answer: No.

Longer answer: There have always been people who never believed in God/gods, even in ancient times, and their deeds and accomplishments in creating a better or worse world often had very little to do with their lack of faith.

Personally, I can see that nihilism and hedonism (which are often subsets of atheism, especially with younger non-believers) didn't really add an improvement to the generations and society in general.

Atheism simply shifts worship and the source of meaning and morality from God to yourself. At the end of the day, it is human nature to search for something to value and care for.

No human can actually "not worship" anything.

I disagree, reasoning? What about atheists who don't like themselves?


That does not exclude them from liking and valuing others or something else, which in turn makes them happy and fulfilled.
People who do not value themselves or their lives or never have any reason to live unfortunately do not live very long. Worse, they instigate their own end.

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The Emerald Legion
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Postby The Emerald Legion » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:47 am

Panslav wrote:
The Emerald Legion wrote:
And yet, the PRC and the Soviet Union were officially atheist.

It's almost like there's other reasons for that prosperity.


Soviet Union was prosperous is its own way. Until people like Gorbachev came and ruined it.


:rofl: AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA :rofl:
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Satuga
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Postby Satuga » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:48 am

Arkhane wrote:
Satuga wrote:There's multiple theories, the big bang, the big crunch, heat death. Also if saying there is no cause is daft, then what about god? Who or what created god? Surely god must have come from somewhere and not just suddenly popped into existence.


You forgot the steady state theory. An omnipotent and eternal God, by nature, has no beginning or end, and therefore exist outside of time or constraints of cause and effect.

However how does this make sense? How can something exist without a reason? It completely ruins the whole idea of nothing can come from nothing. This situation can only exist when said situation is made up. God exists because people thinks it does, therefore humans are "gods" creator. Still doesn't really make much sense though.
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Panslav
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Postby Panslav » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:48 am

Arkhane wrote:
Satuga wrote:I disagree, reasoning? What about atheists who don't like themselves?


That does not exclude them from liking and valuing others or something else, which in turn makes them happy and fulfilled.
People who do not value themselves or their lives or never have any reason to live unfortunately do not live very long. Worse, they instigate their own end.


Valuing people is better than valuing Magical Sky Daddy
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Political compass results:
Economic Left/Right: -8.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.97
8Values results:
Economic Axis: 83.3% Equality (Socialist)
Diplomatic Axis: 78.9% Internationalism (Internationalist)
Civil Axis: 80.2% Liberty (Libertarian)
Societal Axis: 95.1% Progress (Revolutionary)

Total: Libertarian Socialism

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Satuga
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Postby Satuga » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:48 am

Panslav wrote:
Arkhane wrote:
You forgot the steady state theory. An omnipotent and eternal God, by nature, has no beginning or end, and therefore exist outside of time or constraints of cause and effect.


There's also a hypothesis that universe always existed, and just goes from period of expansion and contraction.

Hence the big crunch.
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I much prefer uniforms, soldiers, clear lines of authority, order.
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Fartsniffage wrote:Can the pair of you go do it in one of the myriad American politics threads?

(Image)


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Arkhane
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Postby Arkhane » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:49 am

Panslav wrote:
Arkhane wrote:Short answer: No.

Longer answer: There have always been people who never believed in God/gods, even in ancient times, and their deeds and accomplishments in creating a better or worse world often had very little to do with their lack of faith.

Personally, I can see that nihilism and hedonism (which are often subsets of atheism, especially with younger non-believers) didn't really add an improvement to the generations and society in general.

Atheism simply shifts worship and the source of meaning and morality from God to yourself. At the end of the day, it is human nature to search for something to value and care for.

No human can actually "not worship" anything.


Worship is useless action. Worship is just words, words aren't swords, they don't matter. Actions do.


Worship is a form of action, by worshipping a God/gods, believers are compelled to action, both good and terrible.

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The Emerald Legion
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Postby The Emerald Legion » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:49 am

Panslav wrote:
Arkhane wrote:
That does not exclude them from liking and valuing others or something else, which in turn makes them happy and fulfilled.
People who do not value themselves or their lives or never have any reason to live unfortunately do not live very long. Worse, they instigate their own end.


Valuing people is better than valuing Magical Sky Daddy


Not really. No. The overvalue of people is why the left has become such a monumental disaster.
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Arkhane
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Postby Arkhane » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:50 am

Panslav wrote:
Arkhane wrote:
That does not exclude them from liking and valuing others or something else, which in turn makes them happy and fulfilled.
People who do not value themselves or their lives or never have any reason to live unfortunately do not live very long. Worse, they instigate their own end.


Valuing people is better than valuing Magical Sky Daddy


It depends, obsessions and fixations are not always healthy, both when it comes to valuing faith or people.

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Kowani
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Postby Kowani » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:51 am

Aureumterra wrote:
Alvecia wrote:I would say the finger should be pointed at secularism rather than atheism. The latter being something of a subset of the former.

Secularism I would say has definitely made the world a better place.

This

The separation of church and state has brought the West to where it is right now, without secularism the West would still be the shithole that the Middle East is

Atheism however, in a greater sense, has brought on a devaluation of human life. Not just abortion, but also movements to not have kids, and even some radical Malthusian movements which are borderline Thanos

The fact that you attribute Malthusian movements to atheism is worrying. That you think atheism causes antinatalism is laughable. The fact that you think atheism is responsible for abortion is downright delusional.
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Panslav
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Postby Panslav » Fri Feb 14, 2020 8:51 am

Arkhane wrote:
Panslav wrote:
Worship is useless action. Worship is just words, words aren't swords, they don't matter. Actions do.


Worship is a form of action, by worshipping a God/gods, believers are compelled to action, both good and terrible.


Yet, atheism by itself doesn't call to any action, neither positive, nor negative. Worship is a negative action, by wasting time and resources for no apparent gain.
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Political compass results:
Economic Left/Right: -8.88
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -4.97
8Values results:
Economic Axis: 83.3% Equality (Socialist)
Diplomatic Axis: 78.9% Internationalism (Internationalist)
Civil Axis: 80.2% Liberty (Libertarian)
Societal Axis: 95.1% Progress (Revolutionary)

Total: Libertarian Socialism

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