Has atheism made the world a better place?

[The Emerald Legion]

Don't let yourself get triggered by them. There's no reasoning with a statement like that, it's just meant to push your buttons and scandalize Christians.

No, not really. Its an apt comparison, even if you find it upsetting. Religion does not belong metaphorically stuffed down the throats of children any more than a penis literally belongs in the same place. That you find it repulsive does not alter the underlying point.

They're already made up of your genetics. Why should you not pass on the memetics that enable you to make use of those genetically granted abilities best?

It's one thing to enforce a faith on someone who clearly doesn't want it. Another entirely to simply teach a child who doesn't know anything about the subject.

I always find the argument that children shouldn't be taught religious doctrine when children rather humorous. Do you also expect parents not to give their children any form of moral compass? Clearly you don't want them passing their own on, but who else's would they use? Yours?

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

No, not really. Its an apt comparison, even if you find it upsetting. Religion does not belong metaphorically stuffed down the throats of children any more than a penis literally belongs in the same place. That you find it repulsive does not alter the underlying point.

They're already made up of your genetics. Why should you not pass on the memetics that enable you to make use of those genetically granted abilities best?

It's one thing to enforce a faith on someone who clearly doesn't want it. Another entirely to simply teach a child who doesn't know anything about the subject.

I always find the argument that children shouldn't be taught religious doctrine when children rather humorous. Do you also expect parents not to give their children any form of moral compass? Clearly you don't want them passing their own on, but who else's would they use? Yours?

Whether you decide to teach your kid about the religion you profess or not is a very personal choice. You can tell them but don’t force them. Belief should definitely be an organic thing, not feel like an imposition. The best a religious parent can hope for is that their child will follow their religion happily. But being overly pushy about it can result in a child abandoning it all once they reach adulthood. It’s resented.

That’s what I think, at least. If you want to teach them about your beliefs, go ahead, just don’t be forceful. You want your child to genuinely believe in that, not do it because if they don’t, mommy and daddy are going to get mad.

[Imperial Joseon]

It's one thing to enforce a faith on someone who clearly doesn't want it. Another entirely to simply teach a child who doesn't know anything about the subject.

I always find the argument that children shouldn't be taught religious doctrine when children rather humorous. Do you also expect parents not to give their children any form of moral compass? Clearly you don't want them passing their own on, but who else's would they use? Yours?

Yes, it's called positive freedom, according to Isaiah Berlin.

[Country of CityTowne]

Atheism has-- in several ways-- both caused and solved problems. It allowed people to focus more on what was there as apposed to what could be there. It offered both a voice of reason and a voice of strength for many, but several factors have resulted in more problems than ones solved. Major religious groups have attacked secular ones, but just as many secular groups have done the same.

A world where everybody believed in the same thing would be perfect, but boring. A world where everybody believed in the same thing would be perfect, but impossible. People will always have different viewpoints-- be them hostile or passive.

Secularism itself has made the world a better place, but atheists have not.

[Imperial Joseon]

Atheism has-- in several ways-- both caused and solved problems. It allowed people to focus more on what was there as apposed to what could be there. It offered both a voice of reason and a voice of strength for many, but several factors have resulted in more problems than ones solved. Major religious groups have attacked secular ones, but just as many secular groups have done the same.

A world where everybody believed in the same thing would be perfect, but boring. A world where everybody believed in the same thing would be perfect, but impossible. People will always have different viewpoints-- be them hostile or passive.

Secularism itself has made the world a better place, but atheists have not.

Does that specifically have to be atheists; why not agnostics?

[Xeng He]

No... The default state of humanity had religion. It's why literally every civilization had some form of god or worshiped some sort of deity. Hell cavemen probably thought storms were some type angry god striking them down for not eating a fish right or something.

Explain to me how humans had religion before they invented religion. Explain to me how the first humans were somehow born believing in god without anyone ever explaining the idea to them or them inventing the idea themselves.

Is language the default state of humanity?

Anyway, there are bad things religions do or encourage that people ought to be persuaded out of doing, but in a society without the endorsement of ideas like freedom of religion baked in maybe you'd just end up with violently enforced atheism. Perhaps postmodernism is the real philosophy of peace--but it has problems too, from a civic perspective.

[Imperial Joseon]

Explain to me how humans had religion before they invented religion. Explain to me how the first humans were somehow born believing in god without anyone ever explaining the idea to them or them inventing the idea themselves.

Is language the default state of humanity?

Which language do you mean?

[Xeng He]

Is language the default state of humanity?

Which language do you mean?

Any. Doesn't necessarily matter which.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Which language do you mean?

Any. Doesn't necessarily matter which.

As as species we’ve always had the need to communicate. But language as a default state? What do you consider language exactly?

[Imperial Joseon]

Which language do you mean?

Any. Doesn't necessarily matter which.

English is a universal language. Does it count as a default state?

[Country of CityTowne]

Atheism has-- in several ways-- both caused and solved problems. It allowed people to focus more on what was there as apposed to what could be there. It offered both a voice of reason and a voice of strength for many, but several factors have resulted in more problems than ones solved. Major religious groups have attacked secular ones, but just as many secular groups have done the same.

A world where everybody believed in the same thing would be perfect, but boring. A world where everybody believed in the same thing would be perfect, but impossible. People will always have different viewpoints-- be them hostile or passive.

Secularism itself has made the world a better place, but atheists have not.

Does that specifically have to be atheists; why not agnostics?

Actually a decent point. Agnostic groups, those which are unsure of a higher power, lack the religious conviction of theists and lack the scientific convictions of atheists. While atheists and theists argue, agnostics tend to be outside of the conflict.

[Xeng He]

As as species we’ve always had the need to communicate. But language as a default state? What do you consider language exactly?

Using symbols to communicate ideas, above a certain level of complexity (which an actual linguist would know better than me).

Any. Doesn't necessarily matter which.

English is a universal language. Does it count as a default state?

No, as there was a long period of history when English wasn't universal, and indeed didn't even exist--the only reason it does so now is because of how powerful English speaking countries are or were. There are also still non-English speakers that make up their own cohesive social groups.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

As as species we’ve always had the need to communicate. But language as a default state? What do you consider language exactly?

Using symbols to communicate ideas, above a certain level of complexity (which an actual linguist would know better than me).

So a mere system of gestures or noises to convey emotion wouldn’t qualify as such for you. I guess the need to communicate is the default state, but language isn’t necessarily that.

[Imperial Joseon]

Does that specifically have to be atheists; why not agnostics?

Actually a decent point. Agnostic groups, those which are unsure of a higher power, lack the religious conviction of theists and lack the scientific convictions of atheists. While atheists and theists argue, agnostics tend to be outside of the conflict.

Yeah, they might be more neutral.

[Country of CityTowne]

Atheism is the default state of humanity. It can't have made the world a better place because that just doesn't make sense, it's how the world always was until we invented gods.

No... The default state of humanity had religion. It's why literally every civilization had some form of god or worshiped some sort of deity. Hell cavemen probably thought storms were some type angry god striking them down for not eating a fish right or something.

Religion is not a 'default state of humanity'. Before language existed and even now, humans weren't born knowing how to speak. Humans weren't born knowing relgion, it's a thing people did to fulfill their natural curiosity and help them sleep at night.

Curiosity is a 'default state of humanity' a hell of a lot more than religion is, and even then that's not entirely correct. ;]

[Tupolite]

God or no, the deeply irrational instinct within the human personality that gives rise to religious convictions will remain, and those positivistic ideologies that futilely seek to etch that instinct from the metaphorical heart of man, as opposed to exploiting and refining it through myth-construction to accomplish certain goals, are doomed to failure.

[Imperial Joseon]

God or no, the deeply irrational instinct within the human personality that gives rise to religious convictions will remain, and those positivistic ideologies that futilely seek to etch that instinct from the metaphorical heart of man, as opposed to exploiting and refining it through myth-construction to accomplish certain goals, are doomed to failure.

Probably just sects do that.

[Albrenia]

Any. Doesn't necessarily matter which.

English is a universal language. Does it count as a default state?

Since one has to learn a language, I wouldn't consider any language beyond whatever parts of facial and body language are innate within us as 'default'.

Even more so than religion though, someone remaining in that 'default' state for long would be incredibly rare.

[The Emerald Legion]

They're already made up of your genetics. Why should you not pass on the memetics that enable you to make use of those genetically granted abilities best?

It's one thing to enforce a faith on someone who clearly doesn't want it. Another entirely to simply teach a child who doesn't know anything about the subject.

I always find the argument that children shouldn't be taught religious doctrine when children rather humorous. Do you also expect parents not to give their children any form of moral compass? Clearly you don't want them passing their own on, but who else's would they use? Yours?

Whether you decide to teach your kid about the religion you profess or not is a very personal choice. You can tell them but don’t force them. Belief should definitely be an organic thing, not feel like an imposition. The best a religious parent can hope for is that their child will follow their religion happily. But being overly pushy about it can result in a child abandoning it all once they reach adulthood. It’s resented.

That’s what I think, at least. If you want to teach them about your beliefs, go ahead, just don’t be forceful. You want your child to genuinely believe in that, not do it because if they don’t, mommy and daddy are going to get mad.

Obviously. There is a sight of difference between forcing your child to abide by religious tenets they hate, and thumping the Bible every chance they get.... And just teaching your child the way you would teach them anything else.

This difference is often ignored in these discussions, where any form of religious upbringing is treated as malevolent brainwashing.

[Nanatsu no Tsuki]

Whether you decide to teach your kid about the religion you profess or not is a very personal choice. You can tell them but don’t force them. Belief should definitely be an organic thing, not feel like an imposition. The best a religious parent can hope for is that their child will follow their religion happily. But being overly pushy about it can result in a child abandoning it all once they reach adulthood. It’s resented.

That’s what I think, at least. If you want to teach them about your beliefs, go ahead, just don’t be forceful. You want your child to genuinely believe in that, not do it because if they don’t, mommy and daddy are going to get mad.

Obviously. There is a sight of difference between forcing your child to abide by religious tenets they hate, and thumping the Bible every chance they get.... And just teaching your child the way you would teach them anything else.

This difference is often ignored in these discussions, where any form of religious upbringing is treated as malevolent brainwashing.

Agreed. But you do know religion evinces strong reactions from people, depending too on personal experience. I don’t think an adult that was forced into something as a child and had a bad experience with it would have a positive reaction to the idea of teaching a child about a particular creed.

Anecdotal: my mother’s half brother is a bible thumping minister. He forced his three kids into his faith and church morning, noon and night. Every week, no matter what. It was grueling and controlling. Those kids couldn’t even reasonably question things once they gained the ability and desire to. If they tried, there was hell to pay. As they grew into adults, guess how many of them still attend church or believe the way their dad does? None.

[The Alma Mater]

Disgusting, yet so true.

The propegation of my religion isn't comparable to child rape.

Well, if you are a Catholic it literally is - the Catholic Church after all was the worlds largest pedophile ring for decades if not centuries.

[Salus Maior]

The propegation of my religion isn't comparable to child rape.

Well, if you are a Catholic it literally is - the Catholic Church after all was the worlds largest pedophile ring for decades if not centuries.

An exaggeration to the extreme, as you typically do, Alma.

The Catholic Church is hardly the only one that didn't deal with pedophiles properly before recent decades when people really started paying attention to these things and making reforms. The Boy Scouts are a notorious example, and oddly enough pedophiles keep popping up in our public education system. Not to mention our government is still filled with Epstein's buddies.

That being said, the Church has made reforms, and they seem to be working. There have been far fewer reports in recent decades as opposed to earlier. And errant clergy are losing their jobs. Unlike the Clintons.

[Albrenia]

Well, if you are a Catholic it literally is - the Catholic Church after all was the worlds largest pedophile ring for decades if not centuries.

An exaggeration to the extreme, as you typically do, Alma.

The Catholic Church is hardly the only one that didn't deal with pedophiles properly before recent decades when people really started paying attention to these things and making reforms. The Boy Scouts are a notorious example, and oddly enough pedophiles keep popping up in our public education system. Not to mention our government is still filled with Epstein's buddies.

That being said, the Church has made reforms, and they seem to be working. There have been far fewer reports in recent decades as opposed to earlier. And errant clergy are losing their jobs. Unlike the Clintons.

They didn't exactly come to those reforms or punishments for the guilty clergy easily though. It's going to take a long time before many (including myself) are convinced that they're not still covering for those who commit crimes which can be covered up to save face.

You are right that it appears to be at least lessening now, though. I'm still waiting for the Church to really put their hearts into it and start excommunicating priests found guilty of such crimes.

As for the off-colour joke about religion being like pieces of male anatomy, I admit to having a chuckle about it. Teaching one's children what beliefs and values you hold is fine, as is sharing the traditions and customs. It's when you get to the point of trying to force it on them that's the problem.

[Satuga]

Religion is not a 'default state of humanity'. Before language existed and even now, humans weren't born knowing how to speak. Humans weren't born knowing relgion, it's a thing people did to fulfill their natural curiosity and help them sleep at night.

Curiosity is a 'default state of humanity' a hell of a lot more than religion is, and even then that's not entirely correct. ;]

Religion has been used to teach morals, give a "purpose" to life, and to explain things that humans at the time could not comprehend. The only reason that it didn't become widespread before the creation of civilization was because it would be an individual case of religion where every human thought of a different god in their own vision. I'm saying this as a person who isn't religious. It just so happens that humans use religion to explain the unexplained (to them).

[Imperial Joseon]

The propegation of my religion isn't comparable to child rape.

Well, if you are a Catholic it literally is - the Catholic Church after all was the worlds largest pedophile ring for decades if not centuries.

That doesn't apply to all Cahtolics.