Should the Megali idea in Greece be returned?

[Pyrghium]

And most “Turk” have no idea about it, either. Most of them have been indoctrinated their whole lives to believe they’re “Turkish”, and they only speak Turkish, so that doesn’t help. Most Turks also know nothing really about Orthodox Christianity, and the Constantinople Patriarchate has done very little evangelization among the “Turks” (which is a shame). I think we should be striving to win the “Turks” to our side, because most of them are our long-lost Greek brethren anyways; and we should be trying to show them that the Greek way is the better way.

Either way, I think it’s in the interests of both Countries to be one again; the major issue is that there are two rival Civilizations living on that real estate, both claiming it as their own; and one has to defeat the other, and only then can we have Peace and Unity.

Nah many turks are proud about their ancestry. They're not drones or a hivemind.

The problem is that the Greek Way of today is... well look at Greece and how it is being plundered by a corrupt politician caste and the popes.

Turkey does way better, though this is mostly the work of Ataturk who may have been a tracian greek ancestry himself. Regardless he created a new and better way, unfortunatly one Turkey has been abandoning increasingly in favor of erdoganism. (Erdogan is georgian btw)

Returning to the ancient greek way is a different story.

I agree. It’s nice to dream, but Modern Greece is in no state to receive Turkey, even if it was plopped into their lap for free. The ideal should be to return to its Byzantine, Classical roots (the Eastern Roman Empire preserves the best of Hellenism, but was also Christian); and enculturate the “Turks” into it slowly. Greece also doesn’t have to get ALL of Turkey, we’d just want Western Anatolia and Pontus. The Armenians, Kurds, and Syrians could take the rest.

[Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum]

There is no passage to racism, this land is a Turkish homeland and will remain Turkish.Let's talk about the Turks you murdered in Cyprus
[Bloody Christmas 1963]

(Image)

Why not talk about the Armenian Genocide first?

Why not talk about the Armenian Genocide first?

And the Greek Genocide too...

I'm always open to talking. The so-called,armenian genocide does not fall from the mouth of Turkish enemies.Armenians were exiled, from the Ottoman the goal was never genocide. EOKA kills Innocent people with weapons in Cyprus nobody talks about it

There is no passage to racism, this land is a Turkish homeland and will remain Turkish.Let's talk about the Turks you murdered in Cyprus
[Bloody Christmas 1963]

(Image)

Turkey’s biggest problem is that all their neighbours hate them, and want their land. So Turkey’s days are numbered, I think, and Erdogan isn’t helping things at all.

I agree with you

[SD_Film Artists]

I'm always open to talking. The so-called,armenian genocide does not fall from the mouth of Turkish enemies.Armenians were exiled, from the Ottoman the goal was never genocide. EOKA kills Innocent people with weapons in Cyprus nobody talks about it

Ethnic cleansing is genocide.

Ethnic cleansing doesn't always include death, whereas genocide does.

[The JELLEAIN Republic]

I would like to see it happen, but it unrealistic to say the least.

[Hammer Britannia]

Ναί

[The JELLEAIN Republic]

Why not talk about the Armenian Genocide first?

And the Greek Genocide too...

I'm always open to talking. The so-called,armenian genocide does not fall from the mouth of Turkish enemies.Armenians were exiled, from the Ottoman the goal was never genocide. EOKA kills Innocent people with weapons in Cyprus nobody talks about it

Turkey’s biggest problem is that all their neighbours hate them, and want their land. So Turkey’s days are numbered, I think, and Erdogan isn’t helping things at all.

I agree with you

I think the rest of the world disagrees with you on that middle point.
“So called Armenian genocide”

[SD_Film Artists]

Ethnic cleansing doesn't always include death, whereas genocide does.

It's hard to remove entire populations without people dying from disease, starvation, exposure, etc.

There isn't a single ethnic cleansing that hasn't also been accompanied by mass death.

It depends where they go to, what the conditions are. Ethnic cleansing is often accompanied by death and violence but it can exist without them.

[The JELLEAIN Republic]

It depends where they go to, what the conditions are. Ethnic cleansing is often accompanied by death and violence but it can exist without them.

When?

When not.
Is the better question.

[Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum]

I think the idea of ​​megali is a racist rag. Ignorant people will not break Turkish Greek brotherhood !

[Hammer Britannia]

I think the idea of ​​megali is a racist rag. Ignorant people will not break Turkish Greek brotherhood !

(Image)

Tell that to the Smyrnans

[Pyrghium]

Why not talk about the Armenian Genocide first?

And the Greek Genocide too...

I'm always open to talking. The so-called,armenian genocide does not fall from the mouth of Turkish enemies.Armenians were exiled, from the Ottoman the goal was never genocide. EOKA kills Innocent people with weapons in Cyprus nobody talks about it

Turkey’s biggest problem is that all their neighbours hate them, and want their land. So Turkey’s days are numbered, I think, and Erdogan isn’t helping things at all.

I agree with you

I’m no fan of Ataturk for obvious reasons, but I have to hand it to him, he knew how to steer Turkey clear of trouble, and who to align with, etc. He was very strategic.

[Dogmeat]

I think the idea of ​​megali is a racist rag. Ignorant people will not break Turkish Greek brotherhood !

(Image)

Tell that to the Smyrnans

I don't drink vodka.

[Krasny-Volny]

I’ve been to Istanbul, it’s a thoroughly Turkish (albeit Westernized) city. The people there seemed to be extremely progressive and were much like citizens in the Western nations of the EU in terms of taste, fashion, employment and education priorities, political and social attitudes, etc. But they diverged in one major way: they were proudly and unapologetically Turkish. There is a fundamental deep rooted nationalism there that one doesn’t normally see in Germany, Belgium, Italy, the Netherlands, etc unless national sports is involved.

I saw emotive ties to Ataturk and the very concept of the modern nation of Turkey (read: Turkish republicanism, which today’s western Turks support as a bulwark against the more conservative, religious, and authoritarian attitudes of eastern Turkey) more comparable to the reverence in which Americans hold their founders and republican system than anything I observed in the EU.

Istanbul’s Turks may not be the rabid flag waving neo-imperialists who support blowing Greek Cyprus out of the water or annexing northern Syria, but they’re devout patriots nonetheless, and their ties to the Turkish nation are inseparable. They will react violently if they have to live under Greek rule.

Maybe handing over Istanbul to Greece was plausible a hundred years ago before the population exchanges of the 1920s. But that’s not the case today. And frankly Greece is incapable of paying the economic cost of a Thracian annexation. It simply cannot fund the integration and administration of another province.

[Krasny-Volny]

Nah many turks are proud about their ancestry. They're not drones or a hivemind.

The problem is that the Greek Way of today is... well look at Greece and how it is being plundered by a corrupt politician caste and the popes.

Turkey does way better, though this is mostly the work of Ataturk who may have been a tracian greek ancestry himself. Regardless he created a new and better way, unfortunatly one Turkey has been abandoning increasingly in favor of erdoganism. (Erdogan is georgian btw)

Returning to the ancient greek way is a different story.

I agree. It’s nice to dream, but Modern Greece is in no state to receive Turkey, even if it was plopped into their lap for free. The ideal should be to return to its Byzantine, Classical roots (the Eastern Roman Empire preserves the best of Hellenism, but was also Christian); and enculturate the “Turks” into it slowly. Greece also doesn’t have to get ALL of Turkey, we’d just want Western Anatolia and Pontus. The Armenians, Kurds, and Syrians could take the rest.

The dismemberment of Turkey was maybe possible a hundred years ago, it cannot be done now because Ataturk and his successors have been very successful at instilling Pan-Turkish nationalism into the once-diverse population and suppressing minority groups.

What used to be Pontus and Trebizond is now populated entirely by extremely conservative Muslims who are fundamentalist by Turkish standards and seriously devout patriots. Greece trying to retake control of Pontus would be like Mexico trying to retake Texas. Its not possible, and the local population would resist fanatically.

[SD_Film Artists]

It depends where they go to, what the conditions are. Ethnic cleansing is often accompanied by death and violence but it can exist without them.

When?

You mean when there was a bloodless ethnic cleansing or when there were deaths involved?

If you mean the former then it's difficult to say in terms of when does 'some violance' turn into 'genocide'. Perhaps the Jewish exodus from Spain to Turkey as the Jews were treated well in Istanbul and still have a community and Hebrew-Spanish language there today. It wasn't bloodless as the Spanish government/Spanish Catholic church killed many Jews as 'heretics', but with the exodus itself the Jews were able to either convert or be expelled from the country; deplorable though it was, they at least had that choice which is a choice they didn't get with Nazi Germany.

Territory handovers such as Israel leaving Gaza may be a kind of voluntary ethnic cleansing.

[Pyrghium]

I agree. It’s nice to dream, but Modern Greece is in no state to receive Turkey, even if it was plopped into their lap for free. The ideal should be to return to its Byzantine, Classical roots (the Eastern Roman Empire preserves the best of Hellenism, but was also Christian); and enculturate the “Turks” into it slowly. Greece also doesn’t have to get ALL of Turkey, we’d just want Western Anatolia and Pontus. The Armenians, Kurds, and Syrians could take the rest.

The dismemberment of Turkey was maybe possible a hundred years ago, it cannot be done now because Ataturk and his successors have been very successful at instilling Pan-Turkish nationalism into the once-diverse population and suppressing minority groups.

What used to be Pontus and Trebizond is now populated entirely by extremely conservative Muslims who are fundamentalist by Turkish standards and seriously devout patriots. Greece trying to retake control of Pontus would be like Mexico trying to retake Texas. Its not possible, and the local population would resist fanatically.

Ataturk and his colleagues resorted to violence to force the “Turkish” identity on millions of people. Millions of Greeks, Armenians, and Assyrians who lived in the former Ottoman Empire (or what was left of it after WWI) were given 3 options:

1) Convert to Islam and assimilate to the “Turkish” identity; leaving behind the previous history and culture.

2) Leave Turkey; to go to Greece, Syria, Persia, or the Soviet Union.

3) Die.

A lot of people, who did not wish to leave, and did not wish to die, chose option 1, in a situation of duress. A lot of these people who call themselves “Turks” are not Turks; a lot of these people who call themselves “Muslim” are not Muslim; a lot of them are crypto-Christians - crypto Greeks, crypto Armenians, crypto Assyrians, etc. These people have no deep-seated loyalty to Turkey or to being “Turkish”. Turkey is a Nation (ie. a legitimate national identity) that exists only in a fantasyland, and has to be maintained forcefully, via coercion and purposeful twisting and forgetting of History; but like the Soviet Union, and all artificial states, it will come to an end, eventually.

Will it be a fulfillment of the Megali Idea? Almost certainly not. Turkey will likely be divvied up among the neighbouring countries (and Greece might get a piece), according to the interests of the Great Powers. Turkey is becoming more and more of a nuisance, not only to its neighbours, but also to the Great Powers - the United States and Russia - who I could see at some point, deciding to act against Turkey.

[Krasny-Volny]

The dismemberment of Turkey was maybe possible a hundred years ago, it cannot be done now because Ataturk and his successors have been very successful at instilling Pan-Turkish nationalism into the once-diverse population and suppressing minority groups.

What used to be Pontus and Trebizond is now populated entirely by extremely conservative Muslims who are fundamentalist by Turkish standards and seriously devout patriots. Greece trying to retake control of Pontus would be like Mexico trying to retake Texas. Its not possible, and the local population would resist fanatically.

Ataturk and his colleagues resorted to violence to force the “Turkish” identity on millions of people. Millions of Greeks, Armenians, and Assyrians who lived in the former Ottoman Empire (or what was left of it after WWI) were given 3 options:

1) Convert to Islam and assimilate to the “Turkish” identity; leaving behind the previous history and culture.

2) Leave Turkey; to go to Greece, Syria, Persia, or the Soviet Union.

3) Die.

A lot of people, who did not wish to leave, and did not wish to die, chose option 1, in a situation of duress. A lot of these people who call themselves “Turks” are not Turks; a lot of these people who call themselves “Muslim” are not Muslim; a lot of them are crypto-Christians - crypto Greeks, crypto Armenians, crypto Assyrians, etc. These people have no deep-seated loyalty to Turkey or to being “Turkish”. Turkey is a Nation (ie. a legitimate national identity) that exists only in a fantasyland, and has to be maintained forcefully, via coercion and purposeful twisting and forgetting of History; but like the Soviet Union, and all artificial states, it will come to an end, eventually.

Will it be a fulfillment of the Megali Idea? Almost certainly not. Turkey will likely be divvied up among the neighbouring countries (and Greece might get a piece), according to the interests of the Great Powers. Turkey is becoming more and more of a nuisance, not only to its neighbours, but also to the Great Powers - the United States and Russia - who I could see at some point, deciding to act against Turkey.

Yeah I’m fully aware that millions of so-called Turks actually are not ethnically Turkish. The population of modern day Pontus is an admixture of Russian Circassians, indigenous Pontic people of Antiquity, Balkan sipahis relocated there by the Ottomans, Laz people who are basically Muslim Georgians, and Armenians who converted to Islam. There are even a few people left there who are Muslim but ethnically Greek and still speak a very archaic Greek dialect.

The problem is, none of these still people still identify as Georgians, Greeks, Armenians, Pontics, or Russians. They’ve intermarried with each other and the migrating Turkish tribes and have accepted a pan-Turkish identity for themselves.

I saw a conversation with a Turk from Istanbul in this forum being asked why people from Trabzon were so conservative. He said it was because most were not ethnically Turkish, but knew of no other nation or culture to identify with; therefore they felt the need to prove their Turkishness by adopting more hardline nationalist and ultra-religious positions than the descendants of actual Turkish tribes. Bear in mind this was just a theory but to me it has merit.

So Ataturk won. He succeeded at forced cultural assimilation where the Soviets failed.

Millions of these diverse peoples who live in Turkey don’t remember their past culture and have intermarried with the Turks. They have adopted the Turkish language and culture. And they are some of the most hardline Turkish patriots of all.

The Soviet Union did not assimilate the various diverse peoples of the old Russian Empire into the Russian colonial population. Instead they let them have their own nominally autonomous republics and ethnonationalist leaders. Yugoslavia did the same thing. Therefore the identities, cultures, and religions of those diverse groups remained intact long enough for them to survive as distinct national identity which re-asserted themselves after the fall of communism.

[Tarchuna and Ravenna]

Atatürk did win, but he is dead.

Now, Erdogan wishes to resurrect the Ottoman Empire. I believe we should resurrect the Austrian Empire or the Eastern Roman Empire, if not both, to counterbalance the Turks.

[Rojava Free State]

And most “Turk” have no idea about it, either. Most of them have been indoctrinated their whole lives to believe they’re “Turkish”, and they only speak Turkish, so that doesn’t help. Most Turks also know nothing really about Orthodox Christianity, and the Constantinople Patriarchate has done very little evangelization among the “Turks” (which is a shame). I think we should be striving to win the “Turks” to our side, because most of them are our long-lost Greek brethren anyways; and we should be trying to show them that the Greek way is the better way.

Either way, I think it’s in the interests of both Countries to be one again; the major issue is that there are two rival Civilizations living on that real estate, both claiming it as their own; and one has to defeat the other, and only then can we have Peace and Unity.

Nah many turks are proud about their ancestry. They're not drones or a hivemind.

The problem is that the Greek Way of today is... well look at Greece and how it is being plundered by a corrupt politician caste and the popes.

Turkey does way better, though this is mostly the work of Ataturk who may have been a tracian greek ancestry himself. Regardless he created a new and better way, unfortunatly one Turkey has been abandoning increasingly in favor of erdoganism. (Erdogan is georgian btw)

Returning to the ancient greek way is a different story.

Why not just let the turks be turks? As long as they aren't being racist and killing people, I don't have a problem

Also Greece and Turkey will both be better when Christianity and Islam are forgotten

[Rojava Free State]

Atatürk did win, but he is dead.

Now, Erdogan wishes to resurrect the Ottoman Empire. I believe we should resurrect the Austrian Empire or the Eastern Roman Empire, if not both, to counterbalance the Turks.

I imagine this would be how world war III would occur. By setting up all the conditions that led to the first world war

[Genivaria]

I think the idea of ​​megali is a racist rag. Ignorant people will not break Turkish Greek brotherhood !

(Image)

I'm just in support of a pro-NATO nation holding the straights, if that means Erdogan getting replaced or Turkey getting kicked out of Constantinople amounts to the same to me.

[Samudera Darussalam]

Atatürk did win, but he is dead.

Now, Erdogan wishes to resurrect the Ottoman Empire. I believe we should resurrect the Austrian Empire or the Eastern Roman Empire, if not both, to counterbalance the Turks.

That's a bit overkill, don't you think? The Turkey we have now is different than the early Ottoman back then.

[Senkaku]

Megali revived, NATO and Greece found dead in a ditch, Ottoman Empire restored, Turkish army marches on Vienna, EU crumbles before Sultan Erdogan, the Sword of Islam

[United Muscovite Nations]

Megali revived, NATO and Greece found dead in a ditch, Ottoman Empire restored, Turkish army marches on Vienna, EU crumbles before Sultan Erdogan, the Sword of Islam

Stop, Senkaku. Marches, Jochi, and I can only get so erect.

[Senkaku]

Megali revived, NATO and Greece found dead in a ditch, Ottoman Empire restored, Turkish army marches on Vienna, EU crumbles before Sultan Erdogan, the Sword of Islam

Stop, Senkaku. Marches, Jochi, and I can only get so erect.

Oh I'm sure the end result there would probably just be that Germany re-arms and Russia and the US glass everything between Armenia and Bulgaria lol