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Compelled speech

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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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Compelled speech

Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:13 pm

I can think of at least 3 heavily debated contexts in which the phrase "compelled speech" is invoked. I'm going to rank the first 3 to come to mind, in ascending order of justifiability.

A: Pornography sites are required to call themselves inappropriate for those under 18.

B: Nutrition Information labels and/or cigarette health hazard warnings.

C: People working with kids and teenagers (teachers, youth center employees, etc.) are required to report when they have reason to believe a child or teenager is being abused.

For obvious reasons I rank C the highest. That said, I don't trust the profit motive of the private sector with schools and youth centers anyway, so if it were up to me, I'd nationalize them all and make reporting suspected abuse part of their contracts, rather than the law itself, to pre-emptively head off any "compelled speech" concerns. Not much of a "compelled" speech when you agreed to it.

I rank B above A for two reasons. Firstly, nutrition info can literally be a matter of life and death, especially for those with medical conditions requiring knowledge of certain foodstuff/vitamin/mineral content. (Though this one applies more to the food than to the cigarettes.

Secondly, the difference between porn warnings and food/cigarette labels is that the latter just give you the facts, and leave it up to you what to make of them. For instance, "cigarettes will poison your lungs" is probably a bit more pressing an issue for someone breathing in the clean air of Toronto than someone breathing in the polluted air of Tianjin. Porn warnings, on the other hand, rely on the support of a malign fusion of the religious right and radical feminists, (no way in hell would either group be numerous enough on their own to make society feel justified in resorting to compelled speech on their behalf) who have different reasons than each other for objecting to teenage viewing of pornography, which I suspect is likely why they call it inappropriate without stating why. Even if they specified their objections; and could get the radical feminists and religious right to agree on what objections to specify; it should be up to the individual viewer to agree or disagree with them.

Curiously, "label GMOs" legislation is more often opposed from a "you legitimize fear of GMOs" standpoint than a "but it's compelled speech" standpoint. You almost never hear "they legitimize fear of porn" for the porn one.

I don't think freedom of speech should be considered absolute, but I do think any limit on it should be met with a lot of scrutiny.

So, NSG, what do you make of these examples? Can you think of any other in which "compelled speech" concerns are often invoked?
Last edited by LimaUniformNovemberAlpha on Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:1. The PRC is not a Communist State, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
2. The CCP is not a Communist Party, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
3. Xi Jinping and his cronies are not Communists, as they have shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.

How do we know this? Because the first step toward Communism is Socialism, and none of the aforementioned are even remotely Socialist in any way, shape, or form.

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Sundiata
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Postby Sundiata » Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:28 pm

Well, the two freedoms that concern me most are economic and religious freedom (an aspect of speech). I don't think that education should be nationalized in the interest of preserving economic freedom. However, I certainly do think that public schools should be high quality and well-funded. Public schools should also allow prayer in the interest of preserving student's religious freedom.
Last edited by Sundiata on Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:04 pm, edited 7 times in total.
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Fartsniffage
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Postby Fartsniffage » Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:43 pm

Sundiata wrote:Well, the two freedoms that concern me most are economic and religious freedom. I don't think that education should be nationalized in the interest of preserving economic freedom. However, I certainly do think that public schools should be high quality and well-funded. Public schools should also allow prayer in the interest of preserving student's religious freedom.


You can pray whenever you want in a US public school.

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Dakini
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Postby Dakini » Thu Feb 06, 2020 1:56 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
Sundiata wrote:Well, the two freedoms that concern me most are economic and religious freedom. I don't think that education should be nationalized in the interest of preserving economic freedom. However, I certainly do think that public schools should be high quality and well-funded. Public schools should also allow prayer in the interest of preserving student's religious freedom.


You can pray whenever you want in a US public school.

Exactly. Public schools just aren't allowed to force students to pray or lead the students in prayer.

The students can pray as much as they damn well please as long as they're not being disruptive.

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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Thu Feb 06, 2020 2:56 pm

Sundiata wrote:Well, the two freedoms that concern me most are economic and religious freedom. I don't think that education should be nationalized in the interest of preserving economic freedom. However, I certainly do think that public schools should be high quality and well-funded. Public schools should also allow prayer in the interest of preserving student's religious freedom.

I have a lot to say about religious freedom, but being that it's off topic, I intend to save it for another thread. I ask that you do so as well.
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:1. The PRC is not a Communist State, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
2. The CCP is not a Communist Party, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
3. Xi Jinping and his cronies are not Communists, as they have shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.

How do we know this? Because the first step toward Communism is Socialism, and none of the aforementioned are even remotely Socialist in any way, shape, or form.

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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:43 pm

I am a little lost, are you saying compelled speech is a bad thing?
https://www.hvst.com/posts/the-clash-of ... s-wl2TQBpY

The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion … but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.
--S. Huntington

The most fundamental problem of politics is not the control of wickedness but the limitation of righteousness. 

--H. Kissenger

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Senkaku
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Postby Senkaku » Thu Feb 06, 2020 3:46 pm

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:Porn warnings, on the other hand, rely on the support of a malign fusion of the religious right and radical feminists, (no way in hell would either group be numerous enough on their own to make society feel justified in resorting to compelled speech on their behalf) who have different reasons than each other for objecting to teenage viewing of pornography, which I suspect is likely why they call it inappropriate without stating why. Even if they specified their objections; and could get the radical feminists and religious right to agree on what objections to specify; it should be up to the individual viewer to agree or disagree with them.


You almost never hear "they legitimize fear of porn" for the porn one.

is that not basically the argument you just implicitly made
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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Thu Feb 06, 2020 4:58 pm

Senkaku wrote:
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:Porn warnings, on the other hand, rely on the support of a malign fusion of the religious right and radical feminists, (no way in hell would either group be numerous enough on their own to make society feel justified in resorting to compelled speech on their behalf) who have different reasons than each other for objecting to teenage viewing of pornography, which I suspect is likely why they call it inappropriate without stating why. Even if they specified their objections; and could get the radical feminists and religious right to agree on what objections to specify; it should be up to the individual viewer to agree or disagree with them.


You almost never hear "they legitimize fear of porn" for the porn one.

is that not basically the argument you just implicitly made

How so? Where are you going with this?
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:1. The PRC is not a Communist State, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
2. The CCP is not a Communist Party, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
3. Xi Jinping and his cronies are not Communists, as they have shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.

How do we know this? Because the first step toward Communism is Socialism, and none of the aforementioned are even remotely Socialist in any way, shape, or form.

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Trollzyn the Infinite
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:14 pm

The porn warnings are so the sites don't get sued when a shitty parent finds out their 15 year old son was watching anal fisting videos and would rather blame the website for not having any 'warning' that will magically make Lil Jimmy go "Golly gee willikers, this website is inappropriate for me! Back to Disney.com (with my parents' permission) pronto!"
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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:22 pm

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:The porn warnings are so the sites don't get sued when a shitty parent finds out their 15 year old son was watching anal fisting videos and would rather blame the website for not having any 'warning' that will magically make Lil Jimmy go "Golly gee willikers, this website is inappropriate for me! Back to Disney.com (with my parents' permission) pronto!"

And they all have these warnings by some kind of complete and total coincidence?
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:1. The PRC is not a Communist State, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
2. The CCP is not a Communist Party, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
3. Xi Jinping and his cronies are not Communists, as they have shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.

How do we know this? Because the first step toward Communism is Socialism, and none of the aforementioned are even remotely Socialist in any way, shape, or form.

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Fartsniffage
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Postby Fartsniffage » Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:25 pm

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:The porn warnings are so the sites don't get sued when a shitty parent finds out their 15 year old son was watching anal fisting videos and would rather blame the website for not having any 'warning' that will magically make Lil Jimmy go "Golly gee willikers, this website is inappropriate for me! Back to Disney.com (with my parents' permission) pronto!"

And they all have these warnings by some kind of complete and total coincidence?


There are plenty of porn sites I've seen that have no warning about anything. Maybe you're just looking at lame porn?

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Estado Novo Portugues
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Postby Estado Novo Portugues » Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:26 pm

There's no law that says you have to have a porn site, so I don't see this as "compelled speech". If you don't want the age warning, just don't put porn on your website. And if you don't want to show a license plate (could also be seen as "compelled speech"), don't drive a car. Simple.
Last edited by Estado Novo Portugues on Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:26 pm

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:The porn warnings are so the sites don't get sued when a shitty parent finds out their 15 year old son was watching anal fisting videos and would rather blame the website for not having any 'warning' that will magically make Lil Jimmy go "Golly gee willikers, this website is inappropriate for me! Back to Disney.com (with my parents' permission) pronto!"

And they all have these warnings by some kind of complete and total coincidence?

Pornsites have warnings?
https://www.hvst.com/posts/the-clash-of ... s-wl2TQBpY

The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion … but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.
--S. Huntington

The most fundamental problem of politics is not the control of wickedness but the limitation of righteousness. 

--H. Kissenger

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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:26 pm

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:The porn warnings are so the sites don't get sued when a shitty parent finds out their 15 year old son was watching anal fisting videos and would rather blame the website for not having any 'warning' that will magically make Lil Jimmy go "Golly gee willikers, this website is inappropriate for me! Back to Disney.com (with my parents' permission) pronto!"

And they all have these warnings by some kind of complete and total coincidence?

The barest of minimum of self policing to keep their bases clear from sue happy folks.

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Trollzyn the Infinite
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:26 pm

LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:The porn warnings are so the sites don't get sued when a shitty parent finds out their 15 year old son was watching anal fisting videos and would rather blame the website for not having any 'warning' that will magically make Lil Jimmy go "Golly gee willikers, this website is inappropriate for me! Back to Disney.com (with my parents' permission) pronto!"

And they all have these warnings by some kind of complete and total coincidence?


Not wanting to be sued and shut down is a "coincidence" now?
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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:28 pm

Ethel mermania wrote:
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:And they all have these warnings by some kind of complete and total coincidence?

Pornsites have warnings?

A check box were you promise to tell the website that you’re not lying about being older the 18.

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Trollzyn the Infinite
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Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:30 pm

Heloin wrote:
Ethel mermania wrote:Pornsites have warnings?

A check box were you promise to tell the website that you’re not lying about being older the 18.


Strangely enough, Pornhub doesn't seem to have this.
☆ American Patriot ☆ Civic Nationalist ☆ Rocker & Metalhead ☆ Heretical Christian ☆
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right."

Reminder that Donald J. Trump is officially a traitor to the United States of America as of January 6th, 2021
The Paradox of Tolerance
永远不会忘记1989年6月4日天安门广场大屠杀
Ես Արցախի կողքին եմ
Wanted Fugitive of the Chinese Communist Party
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Heloin
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Postby Heloin » Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:32 pm

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Heloin wrote:A check box were you promise to tell the website that you’re not lying about being older the 18.


Strangely enough, Pornhub doesn't seem to have this.

I think it’s a case of there’s no way someone looking up pornhub doesn’t know what the sites going to be about.

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Estado Novo Portugues
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Postby Estado Novo Portugues » Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:33 pm

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Heloin wrote:A check box were you promise to tell the website that you’re not lying about being older the 18.


Strangely enough, Pornhub doesn't seem to have this.

Not all countries have a required minimum age for consumers. Maybe their server is hosted in such a country.
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Czechostan
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Postby Czechostan » Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:36 pm

I think what you're getting at here is disclosures/disclaimers. Like when selling a house or car, you have to tell the prospective buyer information that would affect its value. Or when you're selling a pharmaceutical product, you have to inform the user how to use the medication, what products you shouldn't take with it, possible side-affects, etc. And yeah, they're a good idea, so that we don't endanger the health and safety of the people who might use the product.

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Fartsniffage
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Postby Fartsniffage » Thu Feb 06, 2020 5:40 pm

Estado Novo Portugues wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Strangely enough, Pornhub doesn't seem to have this.

Not all countries have a required minimum age for consumers. Maybe their server is hosted in such a country.


Pornhub is a pornographic video sharing and pornography website.[6][7] It was launched in Montreal, in 2007.[8] Pornhub also has offices and servers in San Francisco, Houston, New Orleans and London.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pornhub

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Ethel mermania
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Postby Ethel mermania » Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:04 pm

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Heloin wrote:A check box were you promise to tell the website that you’re not lying about being older the 18.


Strangely enough, Pornhub doesn't seem to have this.

Porn sites dont. sites like you tube or tumblr with r or x rated content has them. porn sites dont.

As another poster said, it's usually internally generated from the company.
Last edited by Ethel mermania on Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
https://www.hvst.com/posts/the-clash-of ... s-wl2TQBpY

The West won the world not by the superiority of its ideas or values or religion … but rather by its superiority in applying organized violence. Westerners often forget this fact; non-Westerners never do.
--S. Huntington

The most fundamental problem of politics is not the control of wickedness but the limitation of righteousness. 

--H. Kissenger

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LimaUniformNovemberAlpha
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Postby LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:26 pm

Estado Novo Portugues wrote:There's no law that says you have to have a porn site, so I don't see this as "compelled speech". If you don't want the age warning, just don't put porn on your website. And if you don't want to show a license plate (could also be seen as "compelled speech"), don't drive a car. Simple.

I see. And would you be okay with "if you don't want the age warning, don't put political speech some people wish they could censor on your website" as well?
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:1. The PRC is not a Communist State, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
2. The CCP is not a Communist Party, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
3. Xi Jinping and his cronies are not Communists, as they have shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.

How do we know this? Because the first step toward Communism is Socialism, and none of the aforementioned are even remotely Socialist in any way, shape, or form.

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Rojava Free State
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Postby Rojava Free State » Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:28 pm

Gotta love how we're worried about 16 year old boys watching porn, as if that isn't normal.
Rojava Free State wrote:Listen yall. I'm only gonna say it once but I want you to remember it. This ain't a world fit for good men. It seems like you gotta be monstrous just to make it. Gotta have a little bit of darkness within you just to survive. You gotta stoop low everyday it seems like. Stoop all the way down to the devil in these times. And then one day you look in the mirror and you realize that you ain't you anymore. You're just another monster, and thanks to your actions, someone else will eventually become as warped and twisted as you. Never forget that the best of us are just the best of a bad lot. Being at the top of a pile of feces doesn't make you anything but shit like the rest. Never forget that.

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Cekoviu
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Postby Cekoviu » Thu Feb 06, 2020 6:31 pm

C > B, and A should not exist
pro: women's rights
anti: men's rights

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