NationStates

Saiwania wrote:

The Republic of Fore wrote:That might make them unlucky, but what are the odds of that actually happening? If we're going to worry about the irrelevant one in a million, then why go to college at all? Any degree could become outdated.

A select few degrees are recession proof for the most part, but they tend to be very hard to execute on or stay dedicated to. But if you get in- man are you set for life. Dental school is expensive, but almost always pays off, even if you become just a hygenist. You can find work anywhere in the country or perhaps the world, if your qualifications are recognized.

If a bad tooth needs cleaning/fixing, it more or less has to be done. So the customer is a captive market.

Why do you think I chose medical school? My goal is to be a neurosurgeon. If someone needs the services of a neurosurgeon, chances are they're not in a condition to just say no thanks and go home. So you make that money.

Imperial Joseon wrote:

The Republic of Fore wrote:No you won't. There's many ways for doctors to get their loans forgiven.

Depends on which country you obtain your degree.

The US has dozens of loan forgiveness programs ranging from military service to non profit work. And most offer countries offer degrees free no?

The Republic of Fore wrote:

Saiwania wrote:
A select few degrees are recession proof for the most part, but they tend to be very hard to execute on or stay dedicated to. But if you get in- man are you set for life. Dental school is expensive, but almost always pays off, even if you become just a hygenist. You can find work anywhere in the country or perhaps the world, if your qualifications are recognized.

If a bad tooth needs cleaning/fixing, it more or less has to be done. So the customer is a captive market.

Why do you think I chose medical school? My goal is to be a neurosurgeon. If someone needs the services of a neurosurgeon, chances are they're not in a condition to just say no thanks and go home. So you make that money.

I wanted to be an anaesthesiologist, but I didn't have enough money to pursue that path. Student loan seemed overburdening, so I opted to pursue another path. Sometimes, student loans don't help you much.

Kubra wrote:

The Republic of Fore wrote:What if people who were dumb enough to waste six figures on an art history degree and now think It's society's fault they can't get a better job than Starbucks end up voting? Oh wait, they do.

Least they know the issues bro
went the university for that shit

No they probably don't. If you're dumb enough to do that I doubt you know the issues. Just because you went to university doesn't mean you're intelligent. It means you can hang a piece of paper on your wall. Memorizing facts long enough to pass a test doesn't mean you know something. I can recite the definition of a main sequence star. Doesn't mean I have knowledge of astronomy.

Imperial Joseon wrote:The problem is the student loan. Once you receive your dental degree and start working, you will have to pay off that debt until you're forty, say you become a dentist at the age of thirty.

If you don't live in an expensive locale, Dentistry is just such a lucrative profession that it can usually be paid off in 5 years or less. If you live on just half your salary and aggressively pay everything down, instead of enjoying your pay. Sometimes its even possible to get your medical education from overseas for much cheaper but still have it accredited later on. But its a bit complicated I'd expect.

Grenada is said to have a world famous medical school that's an absolute steal compared to any US based medical school. One of the doctors for my location got their training there, and got licensed for Florida anyways afterwards somehow.

Imperial Joseon wrote:

The Republic of Fore wrote:Why do you think I chose medical school? My goal is to be a neurosurgeon. If someone needs the services of a neurosurgeon, chances are they're not in a condition to just say no thanks and go home. So you make that money.

I wanted to be an anaesthesiologist, but I didn't have enough money to pursue that path. Student loan seemed overburdening, so I opted to pursue another path. Sometimes, student loans don't help you much.

That sounds like your problem.

The Republic of Fore wrote:

Imperial Joseon wrote:
I wanted to be an anaesthesiologist, but I didn't have enough money to pursue that path. Student loan seemed overburdening, so I opted to pursue another path. Sometimes, student loans don't help you much.

That sounds like your problem.

Student loan is supposed to cover that problem. Looks like you have the background that covers your debt for the student loan. Otherwise, it's literally terrible.

Saiwania wrote:

Imperial Joseon wrote:The problem is the student loan. Once you receive your dental degree and start working, you will have to pay off that debt until you're forty, say you become a dentist at the age of thirty.

If you don't live in an expensive locale, Dentistry is just such a lucrative profession that it can usually be paid off in 5 years or less. If you live on just half your salary and aggressively pay everything down, instead of enjoying your pay. Sometimes its even possible to get your medical education from overseas for much cheaper but still have it accredited later on. But its a bit complicated I'd expect.

Grenada is said to have a world famous medical school that's an absolute steal compared to any US based medical school. One of the doctors for my location got their training there, and got licensed for Florida anyways afterwards somehow.

With how much of a shortage of doctors the US has, most places are getting less and less picky about where you went to school. A lot of Americans now study in the Caribbean, and It's not too hard to get licensed if you don't to a diploma mill. The only real reason to go to one of the top of the line schools is if you want to work for the CDC or something.

Imperial Joseon wrote:

The Republic of Fore wrote:That sounds like your problem.

Student loan is supposed to cover that problem. Looks like you have the background that covers your debt for the student loan. Otherwise, it's literally terrible.

No, I just know that I have to deal with it. I applied for as many scholarships as I could. And I'm considering joining the military for a few years after graduating. You want the education, It's on you to pay for it.

The Republic of Fore wrote:No, I just know that I have to deal with it. I applied for as many scholarships as I could. And I'm considering joining the military for a few years after graduating. You want the education, It's on you to pay for it.

Exactly.

The Republic of Fore wrote:

Imperial Joseon wrote:
Certificates or licenses, although the latter usually requires a college degree.

Or just working. If you're smart with your money you can survive. But you might not have an 800$ smart phone or money to waste getting coffee everyday. So a lot of people don't want that.

You're talking with the confidence of someone who hasn't had to struggle financially in a long term situation. Being so poor that you can't afford coffee is some rough shit. If you're that poor, screw coffee, you're barely paying for gas to get to work. Additionally, an emergency is gonna wipe you out. Nobody should be acting like that's in any way a good path.

The Republic of Fore wrote:

Cannot think of a name wrote:Just for giggles can we produce just one art major who had a six figure college education working at Starbucks and blaming it on society? I'm not looking for a statistically significant number of them, or any indication that such a creature has any bearing on any decision we make, I'd just like to see this one person actually existing since they're always brought up in these conversations.

I feel like I should have seen one by now, working in the arts and having friends who are artists, but I have yet to come across one myself.

Yeah, I knew more than a few of them when I lived in Seattle. Just because you haven't seen something doesn't mean that it doesn't exist.

Certainly if they're common enough we could get some sort of example other than some people you met? Keep in mind, producing such an individual is just for curiosity's sake. We'd still have to establish why such a person matters to anything. None of those people appear to be arguing here.

The Republic of Fore wrote: I also knew someone who was in college so long without even finishing her gen ED that the govt refused to keep letting her borrow student loans. Does she admit that failure? OF course not. It's the systems fault man!

Without details (that I do not trust you to provide) I have no way of knowing, really. My road through college was rough, man, and I really only got through it out of luck and a little privilege. I won't go into it here because it's irrelevant, but to say that I don't trust your anecdotal conclusions.

The Republic of Fore wrote:

Jebslund wrote:Because degrees aren't always so polite as to become obsolete before graduation or not at all (or even before withdrawal deadlines). If someone went into a degree with employment in a field that has more positions than applicants, but the market changes just after the deadline for withdrawal of the last semester, does that make them incompetent or unlucky?

That might make them unlucky, but what are the odds of that actually happening? If we're going to worry about the irrelevant one in a million, then why go to college at all? Any degree could become outdated.

Irrelevant one in a million? Try telling that to people with tech and engineering degrees who went to school when those jobs were in high demand and graduated just after those jobs got primarily outsourced to India. Tell that to the people who started med school because nurses and doctors were in high demand, but found out on graduating that those positions had since either been filled or dried up. Try telling that to people who studied architecture before the housing bubble burst. It happens more than you think.

The Republic of Fore wrote:

Imperial Joseon wrote:
Student loan is supposed to cover that problem. Looks like you have the background that covers your debt for the student loan. Otherwise, it's literally terrible.

No, I just know that I have to deal with it. I applied for as many scholarships as I could. And I'm considering joining the military for a few years after graduating. You want the education, It's on you to pay for it.

I know.

Cannot think of a name wrote:

Kubra wrote: the difference with uni's and polytechnics is they're super up-front that they're there to teach you stuff to get a job with, so it's a simple matter: "here's the median salary, here's the grad employment rate, this is what it'll cost you. Take it or leave it." Sure, it's still a gamble, but because what you can do with it isn't so varied (a degree in anything can take you almost anywhere, from the real highs to the *real* lows) it's much easier to figure out how you're gonna do with it.

My university gave me graduation rates, employment rates, and salary ranges for the school and the various majors. This is not really a distinction. Also, my university which is part of a system that's considered one of the better ones in the country didn't cost twelve and half grand a year.

There was a bit of a blood bath a few years ago when a lot of these private trade schools were shut down either for false promises or just unable to sustain themselves. There's a bit too much caveat emptor in those numbers for everyone.

The problem is income range. As we both say, a degree can take you almost anywhere. Meanwhile, a trade certification is going to take you to a much narrower set of possibilities, as well as incomes. You know, a median might be a more accurate way of stating a middle estimate, but it can't tell you what the highs and lows are.

If those trade schools were making full on claims that's obviously a problem. Simply displaying, say, publicly available census data is another. I really dunno what to say regarding private trade schools where you're from, in town there's really only one trade school of note and it's considered a full-on public university, so I admit I tend to speak from that background. They don't cost 12 grand a god damn year, but they cost tuition same as the rest, so for folks paranoid of their prospects it's easier to get a handle on.
We do have some private schools that got into hot water over that sort of thing, but one would be hard pressed to call em trade schools. Mostly overrating how much they'd learn if they'd took a course on Microsoft Excel, that sort of thing.

Totenborg wrote:

The Republic of Fore wrote:Or just working. If you're smart with your money you can survive. But you might not have an 800$ smart phone or money to waste getting coffee everyday. So a lot of people don't want that.

You're talking with the confidence of someone who hasn't had to struggle financially in a long term situation. Being so poor that you can't afford coffee is some rough shit. If you're that poor, screw coffee, you're barely paying for gas to get to work. Additionally, an emergency is gonna wipe you out. Nobody should be acting like that's in any way a good path.

But I have. I survived it, there's no reason others cant. And if you're too poor to afford gas, then walk. Humans have legs. Get on Medicaid or one of the cheap Obamacare plans. It's rough but you can survive till you find something better.

Jebslund wrote:

The Republic of Fore wrote:That might make them unlucky, but what are the odds of that actually happening? If we're going to worry about the irrelevant one in a million, then why go to college at all? Any degree could become outdated.

Irrelevant one in a million? Try telling that to people with tech and engineering degrees who went to school when those jobs were in high demand and graduated just after those jobs got primarily outsourced to India. Tell that to the people who started med school because nurses and doctors were in high demand, but found out on graduating that those positions had since either been filled or dried up. Try telling that to people who studied architecture before the housing bubble burst. It happens more than you think.

Nurses and doctors haven't been filled or dried up. At least not stateside. There's a huge shortage of them. And people are still getting jobs with tech and engineering degrees. And the housing bubble is over. Even considering all of those, It's still their problem.

The Republic of Fore wrote:

Totenborg wrote:You're talking with the confidence of someone who hasn't had to struggle financially in a long term situation. Being so poor that you can't afford coffee is some rough shit. If you're that poor, screw coffee, you're barely paying for gas to get to work. Additionally, an emergency is gonna wipe you out. Nobody should be acting like that's in any way a good path.

But I have. I survived it, there's no reason others cant. And if you're too poor to afford gas, then walk. Humans have legs.

And if they live outside of reasonable walking distance for their job?

The Republic of Fore wrote:And I'm considering joining the military for a few years after graduating. You want the education, It's on you to pay for it.

Before you go to a military recruiter, be sure that you'll be able to pass a physical and mentally prepare yourself for that sort of life.

Any number of things could disqualify you from military service. I'm not quite as bad off as Clone Trooper 99 from Star Wars but the idea is similar- I do not meet the absolute minimum vision requirement of 20/20 in one eye, and 20/400 in the other eye.

The dream of any formal military service is forever denied to me.

Neu California wrote:

The Republic of Fore wrote:But I have. I survived it, there's no reason others cant. And if you're too poor to afford gas, then walk. Humans have legs.

And if they live outside of reasonable walking distance for their job?

The average human can walk 100 miles in a day. If your job is over 100 miles away you have bigger issues. And hey, America might not have such an obesity problem if a few more people walked an extra two miles to work. But even then, busses exist.

Still tho guys there might legit be some courses that could perhaps be trimmed without too much consternation.
I mean midwifery always seemed like a dubious bachelors degree to me, I mean it's not that it doesn't pay but as far as childbirth professionals go it's the one that strikes me as, well, kind of niche.

Saiwania wrote:

The Republic of Fore wrote:And I'm considering joining the military for a few years after graduating. You want the education, It's on you to pay for it.

Before you go to a military recruiter, be sure that you'll be able to pass a physical and mentally prepare yourself for that sort of life.

Any number of things could disqualify you from military service. I'm not quite as bad off as Clone Trooper 99 from Star Wars but the idea is similar- I do not meet the absolute minimum vision requirement of 20/20 in one eye, and 20/400 in the other eye.

The dream of any formal military service is forever denied to me.

Oh I already know I can pass the physical. And I'm well prepared for that life, but thanks for the advice.

Saiwania wrote:

The Republic of Fore wrote:And I'm considering joining the military for a few years after graduating. You want the education, It's on you to pay for it.

Before you go to a military recruiter, be sure that you'll be able to pass a physical and mentally prepare yourself for that sort of life.

Any number of things could disqualify you from military service. I'm not quite as bad off as Clone Trooper 99 from Star Wars but the idea is similar- I do not meet the absolute minimum vision requirement of 20/20 in one eye, and 20/400 in the other eye.

The dream of any formal military service is forever denied to me.

If you're in the military, you're probably going to go overseas to places like Japan, Korea, England, and France. Beware of any calamities, and if you're staying in the Pacific theatre, beware of the coronavirus. Try not to travel close to the Yellow Sea, which is close to China, if you're traveling by plane or ship.

Kubra wrote:Still tho guys there might legit be some courses that could perhaps be trimmed without too much consternation.
I mean midwifery always seemed like a dubious bachelors degree to me, I mean it's not that it doesn't pay but as far as childbirth professionals go it's the one that strikes me as, well, kind of niche.

Yeah, and or encouraged to be studied at cheaper universities. Johns Hopkins, a school that can cost 70 grand a year offers a degree in agriculture systems. What sort of job does that degree offer that could pay off nearly 300 grand in student loans?

The Republic of Fore wrote:

Neu California wrote:And if they live outside of reasonable walking distance for their job?

The average human can walk 100 miles in a day. If your job is over 100 miles away you have bigger issues. And hey, America might not have such an obesity problem if a few more people walked an extra two miles to work. But even then, busses exist.

If you're walking fifty miles each way to and from work, how long is is that timewise? Does that leave time for extracurricular activities, sleep, etc.?

Because I'm sure people don't want to live solely to work.

And not every place has a good mass transit network. Austin, iirc, is a large city that doesn't have one and the voters refuse to vote to implement one