Why the us should cut useless courses from college degrees.

[The Republic of Fore]

OK, to be serious for a second ...

Why is this a discussion now?

Why are so many people clamoring now for colleges to close certain courses that promote things that they don't agree with?

Y'all do realize that gender studies courses, liberal arts departments, philosophy departments, and sociological studies departments have been offered and have existed in Western universities for quite literally centuries now, right? Hell, there are centuries-old schools dedicated to art, philosophy, theology, and sociology. These institutions were around before Tumblr, Anita Sarkeesian, and even your great-great-great-great grandfather.

What has changed now compared to, say, 100 years ago?

I should warn y'all who are all gung-ho about this that the only other times in human history were there is a significant push to abolish progressive social thought in universities, and abolish liberal arts programs is when a nation is slipping down into autocracy and authoritarianism, were absolutists wish to push progressives out, or when a dictator already in power wishes to consolidate his iron fist even harder on educational institutions. This same discussion was going on in Germany before and during Hitler's rise to power.

[[Yes, I realize that gender studies hasn't been around for over a century, and I'm sure you're going to call me out for the Ad Hitlerum comment, but it is true. I also recognize and agree that there are biases that occur in college campuses that go too far, but social media blows them out of proportion. Also, people lie. I also agree that there are certain departments and degrees that are--in practicality--useless, but that doesn't mean that they should be abolished, or that people interested in them should be barred from learning about them, and that also doesn't mean that there is no real-world application for them.]]

Nobody is calling for them to be closed. We're calling for the right to not be forced to study them. Reading comprehension is a great thing.

[The Black Forrest]

"Why does it matter so much to you what other people do?"

If you're not even going to bother to actually use your comprehension skills to read what's being said here to continue bitching you don't NEED it, so NO ONE SHOULD HAVE IT you're actually making my argument easier.

Go. To. A. School. That. Does. Not. Require. A. Core. Curriculum.
But don't sit here whining that the GOOD schools (aka schools you think will magically make you eligible for a six figure job) require you to take 'useless' courses.

There is a REASON those schools are held up as exemplary.

Why don't you try working on the reading comprehension you're so happy to lecture me about? I've never once said no one should have it. If you bothered to read my posts you could see that I've repeatedly said THEY SHOULD BE OPTIONAL! Is that too difficult of a concept for people here? Classes don't have to be effing mandatory to exist! Jesus Christ people. Stop. Forcing. Students. To. Study. Useless. Crap. There's no reason that any school good or not should require classes that a student doesn't need. If you want to study classes you don't need, then choose them yourself! Or, make them mandatory for relevant majors. Wow, what a concept.

*shrugs* Just because you deem it useless; doesn't make it so.

Well rounded people are good thing.

[Jebslund]

"Driving school is useless, because a driving school alone won't get you your driver's license!"

Besides the fact that that license thing (beyond maybe needing licenses to own/operate tv stations or make movies) is bullshit, your argument is asinine. An art degree gives you the foundational skills to get those jobs. It's like telling a lawyer there's no money in going to law school because he needs a license to practice law, or a doctor that med school won't earn him enough to make a living because he needs a medical license to practice medicine.

All of those people don't make that much though. Especially animators, who are losing their jobs to Korean sweatshops. Can't compare them to doctors and lawyers.

They don't make six figures, sure, but they make a decent living.

[The Republic of Fore]

Why don't you try working on the reading comprehension you're so happy to lecture me about? I've never once said no one should have it. If you bothered to read my posts you could see that I've repeatedly said THEY SHOULD BE OPTIONAL! Is that too difficult of a concept for people here? Classes don't have to be effing mandatory to exist! Jesus Christ people. Stop. Forcing. Students. To. Study. Useless. Crap. There's no reason that any school good or not should require classes that a student doesn't need. If you want to study classes you don't need, then choose them yourself! Or, make them mandatory for relevant majors. Wow, what a concept.

*shrugs* Just because you deem it useless; doesn't make it so.

Well rounded people are good thing.

Just because you deem well rounded people a good thing doesn't make it so. We would lose nothing by letting people make their own choices of what courses to take. Making people study things they have no interest in just leads to bitterness.

[The Republic of Fore]

All of those people don't make that much though. Especially animators, who are losing their jobs to Korean sweatshops. Can't compare them to doctors and lawyers.

They don't make six figures, sure, but they make a decent living.

A decent living you could surpass without spending 80 grand on a degree.

[Cannot think of a name]

"Driving school is useless, because a driving school alone won't get you your driver's license!"

Besides the fact that that license thing (beyond maybe needing licenses to own/operate tv stations or make movies) is bullshit, your argument is asinine. An art degree gives you the foundational skills to get those jobs. It's like telling a lawyer there's no money in going to law school because he needs a license to practice law, or a doctor that med school won't earn him enough to make a living because he needs a medical license to practice medicine.

All of those people don't make that much though. Especially animators, who are losing their jobs to Korean sweatshops. Can't compare them to doctors and lawyers.

Both of my animator friends make quite a comfortable living. Owns a house in LA, even contemplated a BMW i8 before deciding it was too flashy. Has a pair of horses and some goats, though. I suspect what has happened is you know one half fact about animation and have extrapolated too much from that.

[The Republic of Fore]

Art classes do help with getting high-salary jobs.

I've met doctors who had undergraduate degrees in the arts and lawyers who studied philosophy, classics, or sociology. I've met successful entrepreneuers who specialize in graphic design and have done quite well for themselves. I don't think the people asserting that the arts are useless understand education or the current labor market.

Congratulations, you've pointed out that exceptions exist. like they do for literally everything. But the people you've met don't apply to the other 98% of people with those majors.

[The Republic of Fore]

All of those people don't make that much though. Especially animators, who are losing their jobs to Korean sweatshops. Can't compare them to doctors and lawyers.

Both of my animator friends make quite a comfortable living. Owns a house in LA, even contemplated a BMW i8 before deciding it was too flashy. Has a pair of horses and some goats, though. I suspect what has happened is you know one half fact about animation and have extrapolated too much from that.

Good for them, your friends don't represent every animator. What is with this site and people saying "Hah you're wrong because I pointed out this one in 10 thousand exception! The average salary of an animator in the US is 66k a year. Nothing to sneeze at, but still nothing amazing either. Exceptions don't disprove the rule. Phillip Rivers claims he was mocked by a teacher for saying his future career was football player. Sure, he proved her wrong. But for 99.9% of kids she would've been right to tell him he was delusional.

[Cannot think of a name]

Both of my animator friends make quite a comfortable living. Owns a house in LA, even contemplated a BMW i8 before deciding it was too flashy. Has a pair of horses and some goats, though. I suspect what has happened is you know one half fact about animation and have extrapolated too much from that.

Good for them, your friends don't represent every animator. What is with this site and people saying "Hah you're wrong because I pointed out this one in 10 thousand exception! The average salary of an animator in the US is 66k a year. Nothing to sneeze at, but still nothing amazing either. Exceptions don't disprove the rule. Phillip Rivers claims he was mocked by a teacher for saying his future career was football player. Sure, he proved her wrong. But for 99.9% of kids she would've been right to tell him he was delusional.

I live in the shadow of the Cartoon Network. That's not a metaphor, the Cartoon Network building casts a shadow on my apartment building. I work in entertainment. These aren't 'people I've met', they're my peers.

I look forward to your survey that proves that a full 98% of animators are not able to earn a living. Graduates of CalArts which exclusively gives degrees in subjects you find useless beats the national median by 47% in their student's earnings. While my friends do well, they don't do so well as to yank a 98% of people not working into beating the national median.

In fact, despite your half learned factoid, the Bureau of Labor Statistics predicts a 4% growth in animation between now and 2028 which is on average for any job with an average income from animators pegged at scientific peak happiness of $72,520 a year, so my friends aren't really the exception you think they are.

But please, do go on.

EDIT: For context, here is a list of average incomes for various engineer positions also from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, which shows animators right there in the middle of the supposed Gold Standard of useful education, when we're trying to dismiss $6,000 a month as 'not very much money'.

[Jebslund]

They don't make six figures, sure, but they make a decent living.

A decent living you could surpass without spending 80 grand on a degree.

You got any examples?

[The Republic of Fore]

Good for them, your friends don't represent every animator. What is with this site and people saying "Hah you're wrong because I pointed out this one in 10 thousand exception! The average salary of an animator in the US is 66k a year. Nothing to sneeze at, but still nothing amazing either. Exceptions don't disprove the rule. Phillip Rivers claims he was mocked by a teacher for saying his future career was football player. Sure, he proved her wrong. But for 99.9% of kids she would've been right to tell him he was delusional.

I live in the shadow of the Cartoon Network. That's not a metaphor, the Cartoon Network building casts a shadow on my apartment building. I work in entertainment. These aren't 'people I've met', they're my peers.

I look forward to your survey that proves that a full 98% of animators are not able to earn a living. Graduates of CalArts which exclusively gives degrees in subjects you find useless beats the national median by 47% in their student's earnings. While my friends do well, they don't do so well as to yank a 98% of people not working into beating the national median.

In fact, despite your half learned factoid, the Bureau of Labor Statistics predicts a 4% growth in animation between now and 2028 which is on average for any job with an average income from animators pegged at scientific peak happiness of $72,520 a year, so my friends aren't really the exception you think they are.

But please, do go on.

EDIT: For context, here is a list of average incomes for various engineer positions also from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, which shows animators right there in the middle of the supposed Gold Standard of useful education, when we're trying to dismiss $6,000 a month as 'not very much money'.

When I said the 98% I was responding to a different post, but okay sure. And 6 grand a month isn't that amazing when you're living in an expensive ass city like LA. An engineer can make that or more in a city where they don't pay 2 grand a month for housing. And sure, people who find jobs with those degrees might do okay. Like they would with literally any other major. How about we study the ones that don't? Why would I advise all wannabe premed students to avoid biology? Because you need a backup plan and It's so oversaturated It's one of the worst majors for unemployment rates. Sure you might make a good living if you do get a job, but that's a big if.

[Cannot think of a name]

I live in the shadow of the Cartoon Network. That's not a metaphor, the Cartoon Network building casts a shadow on my apartment building. I work in entertainment. These aren't 'people I've met', they're my peers.

I look forward to your survey that proves that a full 98% of animators are not able to earn a living. Graduates of CalArts which exclusively gives degrees in subjects you find useless beats the national median by 47% in their student's earnings. While my friends do well, they don't do so well as to yank a 98% of people not working into beating the national median.

In fact, despite your half learned factoid, the Bureau of Labor Statistics predicts a 4% growth in animation between now and 2028 which is on average for any job with an average income from animators pegged at scientific peak happiness of $72,520 a year, so my friends aren't really the exception you think they are.

But please, do go on.

EDIT: For context, here is a list of average incomes for various engineer positions also from the Bureau of Labor Statistics, which shows animators right there in the middle of the supposed Gold Standard of useful education, when we're trying to dismiss $6,000 a month as 'not very much money'.

When I said the 98% I was responding to a different post, but okay sure. And 6 grand a month isn't that amazing when you're living in an expensive ass city like LA.

I live in LA. $6,000 a month will do fine.

An engineer can make that or more in a city where they don't pay 2 grand a month for housing. And sure, people who find jobs with those degrees might do okay. Like they would with literally any other major.

So what are we talking about here?

EDIT: Also, if you don't think there are a fuckton of engineers living in Los Angeles you know less about LA than you do animation.

How about we study the ones that don't?

Are you under the impression that medical and engineering people can end up not making it as well? Because if we're focusing only on failure there's a lawyer friend of mine that momentarily contimplated seeing if he could live on patreon money because being a lawyer isn't what it use to be. Should we stop teaching lawyers because one can't find a job?

Why would I advise all wannabe premed students to avoid biology? Because you need a backup plan and It's so oversaturated It's one of the worst majors for unemployment rates. Sure you might make a good living if you do get a job, but that's a big if.

None of this made any sense whatsoever.

Do you even know what it is you're arguing at this point?

[United Muscovite Nations]

OK, to be serious for a second ...

Why is this a discussion now?

Why are so many people clamoring now for colleges to close certain courses that promote things that they don't agree with?

Y'all do realize that gender studies courses, liberal arts departments, philosophy departments, and sociological studies departments have been offered and have existed in Western universities for quite literally centuries now, right? Hell, there are centuries-old schools dedicated to art, philosophy, theology, and sociology. These institutions were around before Tumblr, Anita Sarkeesian, and even your great-great-great-great grandfather.

What has changed now compared to, say, 100 years ago?

I should warn y'all who are all gung-ho about this that the only other times in human history were there is a significant push to abolish progressive social thought in universities, and abolish liberal arts programs is when a nation is slipping down into autocracy and authoritarianism, were absolutists wish to push progressives out, or when a dictator already in power wishes to consolidate his iron fist even harder on educational institutions. This same discussion was going on in Germany before and during Hitler's rise to power.

[[Yes, I realize that gender studies hasn't been around for over a century, and I'm sure you're going to call me out for the Ad Hitlerum comment, but it is true. I also recognize and agree that there are biases that occur in college campuses that go too far, but social media blows them out of proportion. Also, people lie. I also agree that there are certain departments and degrees that are--in practicality--useless, but that doesn't mean that they should be abolished, or that people interested in them should be barred from learning about them, and that also doesn't mean that there is no real-world application for them.]]

Nobody is calling for them to be closed. We're calling for the right to not be forced to study them. Reading comprehension is a great thing.

People should be forced to study philosophy (at least ethical philosophy) and history.

[Cannot think of a name]

Nobody is calling for them to be closed. We're calling for the right to not be forced to study them. Reading comprehension is a great thing.

People should be forced to study philosophy (at least ethical philosophy) and history.

And to be clear, when we're talking about 'being forced to learn' most of the cases we're talking about 3-6 units, one or two classes in a broad topic with many different choices in that category to pick from. The horror, THE HORROR!

[Fahran]

Nobody is calling for them to be closed. We're calling for the right to not be forced to study them. Reading comprehension is a great thing.

Some elite universities offer you the option to forego general classes and hurl yourself headlong into your course work if you have credits from advanced high school education. You still have to take some electives and ensure that your writing is up to snuff but that approach offers a great deal more flexibility. That said, being "forced" to do something you find tedious is good preparation for a career where many people have to tend mundane responsibilities that might not appeal to them from time to time.

[Post War America]

People should be forced to study philosophy (at least ethical philosophy) and history.

And to be clear, when we're talking about 'being forced to learn' most of the cases we're talking about 3-6 units, one or two classes in a broad topic with many different choices in that category to pick from. The horror, THE HORROR!

Yeah but like any minor deviation away from a narrow focus on being the perfectly oiled cog in the Capitalist machine you want to be is clearly an enormous waste of time and money, and should be done away with. I wonder who might benefit from a narrowly skilled, uncritical mob of consumers? :think:

[Champagne Socialist Sharifistan]

Nobody is calling for them to be closed. We're calling for the right to not be forced to study them. Reading comprehension is a great thing.

People should be forced to study philosophy (at least ethical philosophy) and history.

I agree,
Ethical Philosophy, history and a religion(but they can choose what that religion is)

[Saranidia]

People should be forced to study philosophy (at least ethical philosophy) and history.

I agree,
Ethical Philosophy, history and a religion(but they can choose what that religion is)

I am the same player as this nation.

This will mean that those with power on our society will think about the ethical and historical
Impacts of their decisions.

[SD_Film Artists]

Yeah. Graphic designers, ad people, magazine people, concept artists, and animators totally don't make a living...

With art degree alone, you can't. Those people have licenses.

I've found that the media/arts industry is more about who you know rather than what you know. Unless you're lucky enough to land a job in a big company like the BBC or a Hollywood studio you're going to have to do a lot of freelancing and 'networking'.

Also it doesn't help that many job adverts love to throw the word "media" around when the job is actually more about marketing or IT rather than cameras and video editing.

[Cannot think of a name]

With art degree alone, you can't. Those people have licenses.

I've found that the media/arts industry is more about who you know rather than what you know. Unless you're lucky enough to land a job in a big company like the BBC or a Hollywood studio you're going to have to do a lot of freelancing and 'networking'.

Also it doesn't help that many job adverts love to throw the word "media" around when the job is actually more about marketing or IT rather than cameras and video editing.

A lot of that networking and knowing people comes from going to school. I've gotten most of my work through contacts I made at school or contacts I made via contacts I made at school, and i went to a terrible school for networking. If I had gone to USC or UCLA or CalArts or something I'd be way better off. The UCLA graduate in one of my writers groups is currently in Georgia working on one of the Marvel Disney+ shows, something she can trace back a few steps to her contacts at college.

That's more of 'how do you end up knowing people" question rather than if people should have to take electives or majors you don't want to do shouldn't exist...

[Salandriagado]

It becomes your problem and your responsibility every time you choose to continue to live in a society.

I didn't choose to, I was forced. And even then, no it isn't. There's no law that says what happens to you is my problem. I don't care about an imaginary social contract.

No you aren't. You can leave any time you like.

[Salandriagado]

"Driving school is useless, because a driving school alone won't get you your driver's license!"

Besides the fact that that license thing (beyond maybe needing licenses to own/operate tv stations or make movies) is bullshit, your argument is asinine. An art degree gives you the foundational skills to get those jobs. It's like telling a lawyer there's no money in going to law school because he needs a license to practice law, or a doctor that med school won't earn him enough to make a living because he needs a medical license to practice medicine.

All of those people don't make that much though. Especially animators, who are losing their jobs to Korean sweatshops. Can't compare them to doctors and lawyers.

Repeating lies does not make them true.

[Salandriagado]

*shrugs* Just because you deem it useless; doesn't make it so.

Well rounded people are good thing.

Just because you deem well rounded people a good thing doesn't make it so. We would lose nothing by letting people make their own choices of what courses to take. Making people study things they have no interest in just leads to bitterness.

Your universities think it's a good thing. They aren't willing to give you a degree without at least a token effort at becoming such. Fucking deal with it. You don't get to dictate the terms on which someone else is willing to do business with you. Welcome to capitalism.

[The East Marches II]

Just because you deem well rounded people a good thing doesn't make it so. We would lose nothing by letting people make their own choices of what courses to take. Making people study things they have no interest in just leads to bitterness.

Your universities think it's a good thing. They aren't willing to give you a degree without at least a token effort at becoming such. Fucking deal with it. You don't get to dictate the terms on which someone else is willing to do business with you.

If I challenge you on this Salan, will you run to the mods? I just want to know before we get started.

[SD_Film Artists]

I've found that the media/arts industry is more about who you know rather than what you know. Unless you're lucky enough to land a job in a big company like the BBC or a Hollywood studio you're going to have to do a lot of freelancing and 'networking'.

Also it doesn't help that many job adverts love to throw the word "media" around when the job is actually more about marketing or IT rather than cameras and video editing.

A lot of that networking and knowing people comes from going to school. I've gotten most of my work through contacts I made at school or contacts I made via contacts I made at school, and i went to a terrible school for networking. If I had gone to USC or UCLA or CalArts or something I'd be way better off. The UCLA graduate in one of my writers groups is currently in Georgia working on one of the Marvel Disney+ shows, something she can trace back a few steps to her contacts at college.

That's more of 'how do you end up knowing people" question rather than if people should have to take electives or majors you don't want to do shouldn't exist...

Yes, in both college and university I gained more practical knowledge outside of class in semi-independent activities such as filming ice hockey matches. The classes/lectures were more about post-modernism and Israeli-Palestinian relations.

More on-topic, it would have been better if they had warned me what the real-world media industry was like rather than my young optimistic mind getting lured-in by dreams of Hollywood (I was 14 years old when I took my first media class), but overall it's still a legitimate subject and it shouldn't be removed just because of snobbish luddites.