2020 US General Election Thread IV: The Battle Begins

[Alien Space Bats]

The majority of Americans approve of Lockheed Martin's work, they build good aircraft, albeit a bit pricey. The typical civilian isn't some hippie peacenik. The prevailing view is to have the right wars for the right reasons. Would people prefer the US to not have air supremacy for its air force and etc?

You're missing the point.

Sanders pontificates about how everybody else is so corrupt, so utterly beholden to Corporate America, and how he alone is clean and pure. And then he does the same thing every other politician does. If doing this kind of thing — taking campaign donations from corporate sponsors and making sweetheart deals with them to bring jobs back to the home State or district — makes you corrupt, then how can Bernie claim that it doesn't make him corrupt as well?

And if it doesn't make him corrupt — because maybe he's just that good and pure and true — then where in the Hell does he get off saying that everybody else who does it is a feckless corporate shill?

"It's the hypocrisy, stupid!"¹

---

¹Not an insult, but a call out to Jim Carville and the Clinton Campaign of 1992 (you know, "It's the economy, stupid!"?)

[Aureumterra]

You’re arguing with an internationalist communist

I mean, it's simply correct that Christianity(or at least, mainstream Christianity) spent over a millennium trying to raise the age of marriage.

Yes but whataboutism

see what I did there?

[Diopolis]

I mean, it's simply correct that Christianity(or at least, mainstream Christianity) spent over a millennium trying to raise the age of marriage.

Yes but whataboutism

see what I did there?

Yes, but muh getting on my political enemies.

[Saiwania]

And if it doesn't make him corrupt — because maybe he's just that good and pure and true — then where in the Hell does he get off saying that everybody else who does it is a feckless corporate shill?

It doesn't detract from Bernie Sandars as much, if objectively speaking- he accepts donor money on a smaller scale or to a lesser extent than other politicians. What people like is his consistency. He's had the same message for decades, so everyone knows what he'll do if given power. Unless he just betrays everyone like Trump did to some of his supporters on certain things.

[Alien Space Bats]

The Republican party primaries to my knowledge, doesn't use superdelegates and did just fine in selecting Donald Trump.

I can't believe that any thinking person could ever utter the phrase "did just fine in selecting Donald Trump."

Just how far down the road to dismantling American democracy and declaring himself Grand-Mukkitywump-Poobah-For-Life does this guy have to go before you'll finally write him off as a bad job? I mean, do we have to get to the point where he hauls his political opponents off and has them shot, or will even that we OK with you?

[Diopolis]

The Republican party primaries to my knowledge, doesn't use superdelegates and did just fine in selecting Donald Trump.

I can't believe that any thinking person could ever utter the phrase "did just fine in selecting Donald Trump."

Just how far down the road to dismantling American democracy and declaring himself Grand-Mukkitywump-Poobah-For-Life does this guy have to go before you'll finally write him off as a bad job? I mean, do we have to get to the point where he hauls his political opponents off and has them shot, or will even that we OK with you?

I mean, their goal was to win the election. Which they did, by nominating the exact candidate who was going to take advantage of Clinton's weakness.

[Washington Resistance Army]

The Republican party primaries to my knowledge, doesn't use superdelegates and did just fine in selecting Donald Trump.

I can't believe that any thinking person could ever utter the phrase "did just fine in selecting Donald Trump."

Just how far down the road to dismantling American democracy and declaring himself Grand-Mukkitywump-Poobah-For-Life does this guy have to go before you'll finally write him off as a bad job? I mean, do we have to get to the point where he hauls his political opponents off and has them shot, or will even that we OK with you?

Tbf dismantling American democracy is hardly a bad thing given how shit the system is. I'd be vastly more concerned about his actions on the environment or the disastrous tax policies etc etc.

[Alien Space Bats]

Do most people here think Bloomberg's run is effectively over? He has money, but if he can't debate he won't make any progress in terms of support. Even everyone in the media knows that he had quite a bad night and that he's not the savior the rich or elite hoped for. He got wrecked or stopped and frisked so to speak, even by Joe Biden who's not doing that well either.

No.

There were quite a lot of people who didn't watch the debate, and he'll just drop another $100 million to maintain his position in the polls. That said, what we saw was the typical first-debate funk of a candidate who hasn't debated in years going up against people who've done it 8-9 times already this season.

Now, if he screws up his next debate, well then...

[Genivaria]

I can't believe that any thinking person could ever utter the phrase "did just fine in selecting Donald Trump."

Just how far down the road to dismantling American democracy and declaring himself Grand-Mukkitywump-Poobah-For-Life does this guy have to go before you'll finally write him off as a bad job? I mean, do we have to get to the point where he hauls his political opponents off and has them shot, or will even that we OK with you?

Tbf dismantling American democracy is hardly a bad thing given how shit the system is. I'd be vastly more concerned about his actions on the environment or the disastrous tax policies etc etc.

'American Democracy', we need someone to cross the RubiconPotomac and restore the Republic to the people.

[Thermodolia]

Tbf dismantling American democracy is hardly a bad thing given how shit the system is. I'd be vastly more concerned about his actions on the environment or the disastrous tax policies etc etc.

'American Democracy', we need someone to cross the RubiconPotomac and restore the Republic to the people.

I humbly nominate myself

[Thermodolia]

I can't believe that any thinking person could ever utter the phrase "did just fine in selecting Donald Trump."

Just how far down the road to dismantling American democracy and declaring himself Grand-Mukkitywump-Poobah-For-Life does this guy have to go before you'll finally write him off as a bad job? I mean, do we have to get to the point where he hauls his political opponents off and has them shot, or will even that we OK with you?

Tbf dismantling American democracy is hardly a bad thing given how shit the system is. I'd be vastly more concerned about his actions on the environment or the disastrous tax policies etc etc.

Ya Trumps actions on the environment and his tax policies are absolutely shit and something I care about far more than “american democracy”

[United States of Devonta]

I think everyone should probably calm down, we don't need a religious threadjack getting us all in trouble here.

NSG blows up do to Muslim's likeing Sanders. Suprised. I'm not.

[Saiwania]

There is no way Muslims in the US like Bernie Sanders, it goes against the conventional wisdom I know- which is that most Muslims on average are more antisemitic by default because most are anti-Israel. Bernie Sanders is Jewish, therefore they shouldn't want to back him by default.

There were no shortage of Muslims from Turkey or the Balkans that fought for the Axis or Nazi Germany from 1941 until the very end in 1945. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem supported what Hitler was doing. That Israel was established afterwards on what is holy or contested land, that has the Muslim world more angry about it than would otherwise be the case; if the Jews in the Palestine region were still living like how they had to endure under the Ottoman empire.

[Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana]

Tbf dismantling American democracy is hardly a bad thing given how shit the system is. I'd be vastly more concerned about his actions on the environment or the disastrous tax policies etc etc.

'American Democracy', we need someone to cross the RubiconPotomac and restore the Republic to the people.

Occupy Washington sounds better than Occupy Wall Street

'American Democracy', we need someone to cross the RubiconPotomac and restore the Republic to the people.

I humbly nominate myself

Need a soldier to help out

[Genivaria]

There is no way Muslims in the US like Bernie Sanders, it goes against the conventional wisdom I know- which is that most Muslims on average are more antisemitic by default because most are anti-Israel. Bernie Sanders is Jewish, therefore they shouldn't want to back him by default.

There were no shortage of Muslims from Turkey or the Balkans that fought for the Axis or Nazi Germany from 1941 until the very end in 1945. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem supported what Hitler was doing. That Israel was established afterwards on what is holy or contested land, that has the Muslim world more angry about it than would otherwise be the case; if the Jews in the Palestine region were still living like how they had to endure under the Ottoman empire.

Yes we know that you don't understand a worldview that isn't tinged with ignorant bigotry.

[Ifreann]

So what was up with every Democrat except Sanders saying they don't believe in democracy? That was weird.

[Kowani]

So what was up with every Democrat except Sanders saying they don't believe in democracy? That was weird.

They’re losing.

[Sougra]

There is no way Muslims in the US like Bernie Sanders, it goes against the conventional wisdom I know- which is that most Muslims on average are more antisemitic by default because most are anti-Israel. Bernie Sanders is Jewish, therefore they shouldn't want to back him by default.

There were no shortage of Muslims from Turkey or the Balkans that fought for the Axis or Nazi Germany from 1941 until the very end in 1945. The Grand Mufti of Jerusalem supported what Hitler was doing. That Israel was established afterwards on what is holy or contested land, that has the Muslim world more angry about it than would otherwise be the case; if the Jews in the Palestine region were still living like how they had to endure under the Ottoman empire.

Trust me, most Muslims, specifically in the US, are on the left, even the ones that are anti-Semitic. And despite Sanders being Jewish, he's been questioned about his Jewishness from the Jewish right for a while, specifically because he, to my knowledge, doesn't practice the religion much. And he's probably one of the most supportive of Palestine in the Democratic party. I'd say a majority of Muslims aren't anti-Semitic, and since for many of them are involved in social justice and/or are supportive of Palestine, he's a natural choice. Him being Jewish doesn't matter as much since he hasn't made it a central figure of his campaign, so some of them might not even realize that even if they are anti-Semitic.

[Vetalia]

So what was up with every Democrat except Sanders saying they don't believe in democracy? That was weird.

Admittedly I don't believe in democracy either so that is a selling point...

[Ifreann]

So what was up with every Democrat except Sanders saying they don't believe in democracy? That was weird.

They’re losing.

Seems like the kind of thing that should sink all their candidacies, given how the last presidential election went.

[Zurkerx]

So what was up with every Democrat except Sanders saying they don't believe in democracy? That was weird.

They’re losing.

I was surprised Warren would even brace such a position.

[United Dependencies]

Of course this doesn’t exonerate Sanders at all, just makes it so it’s not immediately damning to progressives. In Australia, companies have done shady stuff like getting employees to donate to parties using company money in order to skirt the corporate donations limit. It’s definitely possible to guess that Lockheed-Martin could be doing something similar but that’s just unfounded speculation at the moment.

Still doesn’t look great. Just not terrible. Hopefully more information comes out as people dig into it.

ASB was talking about what kind of campaign ads he would call out if he were running. Since everybody treats the dollar amounts at OpenSecrets as having come directly out of some companies coffers, talking about the numbers there are still effective lines of attack.

It also is worth noting that Sanders voted for the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter at the same time that there was a promise to build a parts production plant in his home state. Again, not that the f-35 or our military are always bad things to be spending money on, but it still works to undercut the notion that Sanders, unlike his opponents, is untouched by corporate interests.

[True Refuge]

Of course this doesn’t exonerate Sanders at all, just makes it so it’s not immediately damning to progressives. In Australia, companies have done shady stuff like getting employees to donate to parties using company money in order to skirt the corporate donations limit. It’s definitely possible to guess that Lockheed-Martin could be doing something similar but that’s just unfounded speculation at the moment.

Still doesn’t look great. Just not terrible. Hopefully more information comes out as people dig into it.

ASB was talking about what kind of campaign ads he would call out if he were running. Since everybody treats the dollar amounts at OpenSecrets as having come directly out of some companies coffers, talking about the numbers there are still effective lines of attack.

It also is worth noting that Sanders voted for the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter at the same time that there was a promise to build a parts production plant in his home state. Again, not that the f-35 or our military are always bad things to be spending money on, but it still works to undercut the notion that Sanders, unlike his opponents, is untouched by corporate interests.

I was replying to RFSI, since RFSI was saying that the donations were a factor in their opinions of Sanders. It seemed like they hadn't seen the post that I quoted from you.

Sounds debatable as to whether he was lobbied to vote or he was voting according to his state's interests. It's fishy, but nowhere near enough to be a smoking gun. My opinion would depend on how pointless it would've been to vote against the program, Sanders' remarks on it, and Lockheed-Martin donations to him or related persons at the time, and I can't find that information at the moment.

[Saiwania]

This picture was just too good for me to pass up. I'm thinking I should keep it at least until Mike Bloomberg drops out or loses against Trump. Bonus points for those who understand the reference.

But that is the sense I get from Bloomberg because of last night. His power or potential is all one big illusion but really he's very weak and if exposed or opposed he can become undone so easily, no matter how much money he spends on this race.

[United Dependencies]

Sounds debatable as to whether he was lobbied to vote or he was voting according to his state's interests. It's fishy, but nowhere near enough to be a smoking gun. My opinion would depend on how pointless it would've been to vote against the program, Sanders' remarks on it, and Lockheed-Martin donations to him or related persons at the time, and I can't find that information at the moment.

The problem isn't the vote itself. The vote is completely understandable and perfectly fine. Well, within the usual levels of what politicians do at least. The issue is that this is the same sort of behavior that gets other non-Bernie candidates labeled as corrupt. It also undercuts his message of being opposed to the military-industrial complex.