UK Politics Thread XII: The Lockdown

[Agarntrop]

This sounds like you're willing to take a blind eye to the atrocities of our history for the sake of something as abstract as "heritage". Anyone who claims to be against a generic agenda is usually pushing one themselves.

Atrocities such as?

The Mau Mau war crimes, Boer concentration camps, Jallianwala Bagh massacre....

[North German Realm]

Atrocities such as?

The Mau Mau war crimes, Boer concentration camps, Jallianwala Bagh massacre....

90% of the shit that was going on in India, the stuff that happened in Malaysia in 1948, the stuff that happened in Kenya in 1952-60...

[Alvecia]

"This is the end for sure" they exclaimed, once again.

[Kragholm Free States]

I hope I am still alive in a century's time, when the dogma of the cult of progress has morphed into a new, even more ridiculous form. I hope I am alive then so I can laugh when the statues of black activists that will inevitably soon be raised are declared anathema for some absurd manufactured reason and torn down to much rejoicing by the progressive mobs of the future.

[The Islands of Versilia]

The Mau Mau war crimes, Boer concentration camps, Jallianwala Bagh massacre....

90% of the shit that was going on in India, the stuff that happened in Malaysia in 1948, the stuff that happened in Kenya in 1952-60...

There was also the stuff with the Tasmanian Aborigines. The killing all the men and hanging their heads around their wives’ necks sort of thing...

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

Complaining about things being reviewed seems hysterical to me. The world changes all the time, get used to it.

[Thanatttynia]

Consistent behaviour from such elites indicating their contempt for our heritage; Khan's admission that he wants there 'to be a proper process for the removal of any statues that do not reflect London’s values.' (where London's values is read as the elite class' luxury ideology.)

This is just the bureaucratisation of the base destructive impulse and hatred for community in neoliberalism. Global capital looks on in glee, I assure you

Where "Global Capital" means what, exactly?

Also I see we've abandoned the idea that the statue that got torn down should've been removed through the "proper" channels if we're just going to call trying to do that an equally heinous attack on our whitewashed idea of British Heritage.

Capital in the globalised age

A democratic initiative to move a particular statue in a provincial city is a long way off an unelected body made up of cultural elites being given the cultural heritage of our nation's capital to do with what they will. But, you're right, I oppose the legitimising of the destruction of our history whether the mob tears the statue down themselves or subcontracts such work out to a moving company

[Vassenor]

Complaining about things being reviewed seems hysterical to me. The world changes all the time, get used to it.

"You can't tear statues down! You need to go through the proper channels to remove them."

"OK, we're forming a commission to evaluate which statues should probably be removed."

"No, not like that."

[Vassenor]

Where "Global Capital" means what, exactly?

Also I see we've abandoned the idea that the statue that got torn down should've been removed through the "proper" channels if we're just going to call trying to do that an equally heinous attack on our whitewashed idea of British Heritage.

Capital in the globalised age

A democratic initiative to move a particular statue in a provincial city is a long way off an unelected body made up of cultural elites being given the cultural heritage of our nation's capital to do with what they will. But, you're right, I oppose the legitimising of the destruction of our history whether the mob tears the statue down themselves or subcontracts such work out to a moving company

And we're back to "statues are the only way to preserve history".

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

I have yet to see any statues of historically important politicians/kings that are not propaganda pieces fwiw.

[Thanatttynia]

Capital in the globalised age

A democratic initiative to move a particular statue in a provincial city is a long way off an unelected body made up of cultural elites being given the cultural heritage of our nation's capital to do with what they will. But, you're right, I oppose the legitimising of the destruction of our history whether the mob tears the statue down themselves or subcontracts such work out to a moving company

And we're back to "statues are the only way to preserve history".

No, that's not even remotely what I'm saying.

[Vassenor]

And we're back to "statues are the only way to preserve history".

No, that's not even remotely what I'm saying.

So how does removing statues destroy our history and heritage then?

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

I like how British nuclear power is going to be half PRC'ian in the future. Totally not alarming.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Complaining about things being reviewed seems hysterical to me. The world changes all the time, get used to it.

"You can't tear statues down! You need to go through the proper channels to remove them."

"OK, we're forming a commission to evaluate which statues should probably be removed."

"No, not like that."

I don't see why statues should be toarn down though?
Unless we get to some insane situation in which we are struggling for land because of the legions of statues.

[Thanatttynia]

No, that's not even remotely what I'm saying.

So how does removing statues destroy our history and heritage then?

The committee will 'consider murals, street art, street names, statues and other memorials' i.e. any public visual culture aside from buildings (for now.) Public visual culture is important because this is how the masses interact with art and history in their everyday lives.

Destroying statues (or their functional destruction by being hidden away) is literally destruction of heritage for very obvious reasons. This is bad because: removing or destroying our heritage in service of a political ideology a) is another kneecapping of nationhood and community and b) allows that political ideology to present itself as intractable or incontrovertible and thus suppress dissent in the same manner (though obv not degree) as a Terror increases a regime's authority by 'removing' actual critics.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

So how does removing statues destroy our history and heritage then?

The committee will 'consider murals, street art, street names, statues and other memorials' i.e. any public visual culture aside from buildings (for now.) Public visual culture is important because this is how the masses interact with art and history in their everyday lives.

Destroying statues (or their functional destruction by being hidden away) is literally destruction of heritage for very obvious reasons. This is bad because: removing or destroying our heritage in service of a political ideology a) is another kneecapping of nationhood and community and b) allows that political ideology to present itself as intractable or incontrovertible and thus suppress dissent in the same manner (though obv not degree) as a Terror increases a regime's authority by 'removing' actual critics.

And what are the criteria?

Saint Volodomyr was a horrible man, who (and I'm not even bullshitting here) went out religion shopping and found orthodox Christianity. He forceably converted millions of people to it. I'm a lifelong Pagan; and this man, through coersive force, converted millions of Pagans.

Am I offended? Of course not, because it was over a thousand years ago. Where do we draw the line?

[Ostroeuropa]

So how does removing statues destroy our history and heritage then?

The committee will 'consider murals, street art, street names, statues and other memorials' i.e. any public visual culture aside from buildings (for now.) Public visual culture is important because this is how the masses interact with art and history in their everyday lives.

Destroying statues (or their functional destruction by being hidden away) is literally destruction of heritage for very obvious reasons. This is bad because: removing or destroying our heritage in service of a political ideology a) is another kneecapping of nationhood and community and b) allows that political ideology to present itself as intractable or incontrovertible and thus suppress dissent in the same manner (though obv not degree) as a Terror increases a regime's authority by 'removing' actual critics.

"This anti-capitalist poster isn't intersectional, it's class reductionist racism. On the other hand, this poster that actively inflames racial tensions and divides the working classes is good, because it's minorities asserting themselves against the evil white man through a bunch of race-baiting misinformation and slurs. This divide and rule strategy is how we show we've moved past colonialism as a society.".

Big Brain Moves here from the progressive left, let's see how it works out.

British Elites In An Area: "No, because see, the reason we're elevating this particular minority above the majority is because historically they are oppressed by the uncivilized forces here, whose culture must be put under endless scrutiny and torn down." tale as old as time.

[Dumb Ideologies]

I like how British nuclear power is going to be half PRC'ian in the future. Totally not alarming.

I wonder what the Chinese think of the baizuo kowtowing for the unique evils of Anglo economic and political history at the same time as they're literally allowing themselves to be colonised. Perhaps there's a reason why we're heading towards a Chinese century.

[Ostroeuropa]

Complaining about things being reviewed seems hysterical to me. The world changes all the time, get used to it.

"You can't tear statues down! You need to go through the proper channels to remove them."

"OK, we're forming a commission to evaluate which statues should probably be removed."

"No, not like that."

There is a difference between an imposed decision by a group of ideologues and a popular local rejection of the statue. Culture does not belong to only a subset of the population.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

"You can't tear statues down! You need to go through the proper channels to remove them."

"OK, we're forming a commission to evaluate which statues should probably be removed."

"No, not like that."

There is a difference between an imposed decision by a group of ideologues and a popular local rejection of the statue. Culture does not belong to only a subset of the population.

I would argue that culture doesn't even belong to a majority of the population. For a short but enlightened time, the centrepiece of our political culture was freedom of expression; I see no reason why, if an organisation has purchased an area of land or if a council has agreed to host a statue on public land for an organisation, anybody external to said organisation should get to decide whether it is taken down, unless the lease on said plot of land expires.

[Ifreann]

Who is endangered by people writing true things on a statue of Churchill?

With that reasoning i guess you would have no objections to random people writing on your car and front door something inflamatory but true. It would be true, afterall.

I asked a specific question about a specific comment. Kindly do not twist that into a general statement of support for all vandalism.

Hint, asking who gets endangered by vandalism is just shifting the point.

No it isn't, because I was responding to a post that seemed to suggest that vandalism is endangering people. A point which has since been clarified by the poster in question.

Though I will say that it is strange that you did not notice that while editing my post to include the link from your post but exclude the post I was responding to. Almost as if you are being deliberately disingenuous.

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This is the Cenotaph in London.

(Image)

This picture requires no further context.

Terribly unsafe way to set fire to a flag. I do hope someone helped him to take the it down and burn it on the ground.

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So how does acknowledging the darker side of our heritage destroy our heritage?

No one's 'acknowledging' anything. This isn't a committee dedicated to 'acknowledging' the darker sides of our heritage; we've had plenty of them and permanent groups continually do the same work. I'm all for historiographical nuance. This is a committee dedicated to the scrubbing of our heritage in service of a political ideology

Quite the opposite. If anyone is scrubbing your heritage in service of a political ideology it is the people wringing their hands about statues being taken down. They want to carry on celebrating figures like Churchill so they ignore their crimes. Maybe they make token acknowledgements, watered down with excuses about living in a different time, but they refuse to actually incorporate into their thinking facts such as that Winston Churchill was a genocidal racist, because then they raise the possibility that they shouldn't be celebrating him. Very uncomfortable line of thinking, mustn't follow it, best to just leave his statues up forever, how dare anyone suggest otherwise, [angry British noises].

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Where "Global Capital" means what, exactly?

Also I see we've abandoned the idea that the statue that got torn down should've been removed through the "proper" channels if we're just going to call trying to do that an equally heinous attack on our whitewashed idea of British Heritage.

White washed? Oh were the britons that Rome civilized suddenly brown?

Several of the Romans that invaded Britain were.

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"You can't tear statues down! You need to go through the proper channels to remove them."

"OK, we're forming a commission to evaluate which statues should probably be removed."

"No, not like that."

I don't see why statues should be toarn down though?

Because the people paying for its upkeep decided they didn't want it around any more, pretty simples.

[Ostroeuropa]

Should Pankhursts statue be taken down?

[Ostroeuropa]

It's telling the examples the far-left is using as comparisons are all from invaded countries or overthrown governments (Iraq, Germany). Almost like this is revolutionary and extremist behavior, and they are admitting that they are so far removed from mainstream British society and history that them gaining influence in it is comparable to a revolution or foreign invasion that displaces the old culture.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

I like how British nuclear power is going to be half PRC'ian in the future. Totally not alarming.

I wonder what the Chinese think of the baizuo kowtowing for the unique evils of Anglo economic and political history at the same time as they're literally allowing themselves to be colonised. Perhaps there's a reason why we're heading towards a Chinese century.

I imagine they are quite pleased watching Britons bitch and whinge amongst themselves about who was the evulest while they threaten its government.

[Vassenor]

Where "Global Capital" means what, exactly?

Also I see we've abandoned the idea that the statue that got torn down should've been removed through the "proper" channels if we're just going to call trying to do that an equally heinous attack on our whitewashed idea of British Heritage.

White washed? Oh were the britons that Rome civilized suddenly brown?

When did whitewashing in terms of historical revisionism become an exclusively racial term?