UK Politics Thread XII: The Lockdown

[Questarian New Yorkshire]

imagine unironically advocating we have a 2nd referendum after the 2019 election l m f a o

[The Huskar Social Union]

There is no way in hell you are getting another brexit referendum at this rate.

[Albrenia]

As stupid as the whole of Brexit is, it does seem quite clear people voted to get it over and done with.

[The Alma Mater]

As stupid as the whole of Brexit is, it does seem quite clear people voted to get it over and done with.

Was it stupid ? Currently the southern European countries are demanding that the other EU members "show solidarity" and give them many billions of aid without any strings or conditions attached. Britain safely got away from that.

[Albrenia]

As stupid as the whole of Brexit is, it does seem quite clear people voted to get it over and done with.

Was it stupid ? Currently the southern European countries are demanding that the other EU members "show solidarity" and give them many billions of aid without any strings or conditions attached. Britain safely got away from that.

From my perspective it was stupid, yeah. Although obviously, a majority of people in the UK disagreed at least enough to find getting it done more tolerable than the process continuing.

I'd go into more detail but I'm fairly sure everyone here (including me) is sick of talking about Brexit.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Was it stupid ? Currently the southern European countries are demanding that the other EU members "show solidarity" and give them many billions of aid without any strings or conditions attached. Britain safely got away from that.

From my perspective it was stupid, yeah. Although obviously, a majority of people in the UK disagreed at least enough to find getting it done more tolerable than the process continuing.

I'd go into more detail but I'm fairly sure everyone here (including me) is sick of talking about Brexit.

Everyone in the country is. That's why if labour tries to put this in its next manifesto it'll be seen as a joke.

[Dumb Ideologies]

The EU should have been a minimalist collective security organisation focused solely on national disarmament and a collective foreign policy to diminish the chance of future war among members.

This ever closer union bullshit and free trade/movement stuff is based on notions of capitalist peace where everyone will get along if you tie their economies together close enough. In the process it has become an elitist organisation and another tool of big business and banks, and as such the monetary policy keeps the poorer countries in debt and underdeveloped rather than raising them up, which in turn is increasingly undermining these supposedly sacred notions of European unity.

It flubbed the corona response, it fails to defend its borders either from "refugees" or pay its way militarily in supporting the Eastern Europeans. It's pretty unreformable, it might be best if it falls so we can start again.

Im not sure why anyone would still be fanatic about staying in. Maybe leaving isn't the best economic situation in current year but Europe is going to tank too so I'm not sure how much difference it makes.

I miss Jeremy Corbyn, the only man whose position on the EU was as torturously doubt ridden as mine. I've changed my mind so many times it's a bit cringe. Blame it on the ideology effect of it only being possible to see past the horizon of what exists when a crisis shows the flaws - EU looked good by comparison when we were constantly voting against every form of Brexit, now with the EU itself in crisis it's much easier to see the problems.

[Questarian New Yorkshire]

The EU should have been a minimalist collective security organisation focused solely on national disarmament and a collective foreign policy to diminish the chance of future war among members.

This ever closer union bullshit and free trade/movement stuff is based on notions of capitalist peace where everyone will get along if you tie their economies together close enough. In the process it has become an elitist organisation and another tool of big business and banks, and as such the monetary policy keeps the poorer countries in debt and underdeveloped rather than raising them up, which in turn is increasingly undermining these supposedly sacred notions of European unity.

It flubbed the corona response, it fails to defend its borders either from "refugees" or pay its way militarily in supporting the Eastern Europeans. It's pretty unreformable, it might be best if it falls so we can start again.

Im not sure why anyone would still be fanatic about staying in. Maybe leaving isn't the best economic situation in current year but Europe is going to tank too so I'm not sure how much difference it makes.

Basically agree.

[Kragholm Free States]

The EU should have been a minimalist collective security organisation

Yes

focused solely on national disarmament and a collective foreign policy to diminish the chance of future war among members.

God no, it should have focused on presenting a common front and an alliance of interests against the malign influence of the US, China, and Russia. The last thing it should do is render Europe powerless.

[Questarian New Yorkshire]

God no, it should have focused on presenting a common front and an alliance of interests against the malign influence of the US, China, and Russia. The last thing it should do is render Europe powerless.

I think DI meant the nations should reduce their own militaries and contribute to a broader European defence forces though (cos I saw them say that in another thread)

[Dumb Ideologies]

God no, it should have focused on presenting a common front and an alliance of interests against the malign influence of the US, China, and Russia. The last thing it should do is render Europe powerless.

I think DI meant the nations should reduce their own militaries and contribute to a broader European defence forces though (cos I saw them say that in another thread)

Yeah that's it. People will argue military independence is a big part of sovereignty but if you look past the ideology our independence is basically us being America's bitch and the Europeans doing nothing.

[Kragholm Free States]

God no, it should have focused on presenting a common front and an alliance of interests against the malign influence of the US, China, and Russia. The last thing it should do is render Europe powerless.

I think DI meant the nations should reduce their own militaries and contribute to a broader European defence forces though (cos I saw them say that in another thread)

Ah fair enough then, that's infinitely more sensible than how I interpreted it. I still think simple coordination and cooperation between national militaries would be a more effective way to handle common defence than making a "European army" at the expense of those national militaries - better dispersed capability for rapid reaction, no need to try and unify equipment and doctrine etc. - but that's just me.

[Questarian New Yorkshire]

Multinational armies do work and can be very effective (see: the British Indian Army) but they need a common core of officers and they need to be able to reliably source highly multilingual personnel (especially in combat service support.)

That was easy for the British Indian Army. And the British Indian Army was pretty good, for what it was. Its also the biggest volunteer army in history.

The problem would be intensified for Europe. For a start, it's not clear what the lingua franca would be. Secondly, the individual militaries have a lot of heritage and history, especially British and French, that they will not be willing to throw away.

[Jack Thomas Lang]

This ever closer union bullshit and free trade/movement stuff is based on notions of capitalist peace where everyone will get along if you tie their economies together close enough.

Where have I heard this before?

[Ifreann]

And its becoming clearer that the government refused the offer of ventilators from the EU entirely for political reasons.

Second source.

Brexit is more important than breathing, after all.

It would be the logical decision for a government 'getting Brexit done' as Cummings wanted them to say. Presumably most people who voted for Brexit would support them doing that, even at the cost UK lives. Though not being a Brexit supporter I disagree with them.

Signs are that they are sticking to the Brexit transition deadline of December 31, even though very little is likely being done on negotiating with the EU while the government struggles with the Coronavirus issue.

I dread to think what a is going to happen to our already weakened economy if we end up with a no deal Brexit. It is absolutely stupid.

Hmm, I wonder if some Tories might not be thinking that if they go ahead with Brexit full-steam then any economic damage can be blamed on the 'rona. All of the Brexit, none of the responsibility.

[The New California Republic]

https://twitter.com/ivorbaddiel/status/ ... 74466?s=12

[Celritannia]

The other good things about the EU were the joint scientific and space programmes, and EU development funding, like my town got to help keep the library, arts groups, and community centres open.

I wasn't one for the capitalist side, and would like to see it improved.

But it still more logical to be apart of the EU.

[The Huskar Social Union]

The other good things about the EU were the joint scientific and space programmes, and EU development funding, like my town got to help keep the library, arts groups, and community centres open.

I wasn't one for the capitalist side, and would like to see it improved.

But it still more logical to be apart of the EU.

EU funding helped a lot with my home: infrastructure projects, jobs, cross community work, research programs, mobility programs etc and i wanted to see that continue. As far as i am concerned its been nothing but a benefit for NI.

[Celritannia]

The other good things about the EU were the joint scientific and space programmes, and EU development funding, like my town got to help keep the library, arts groups, and community centres open.

I wasn't one for the capitalist side, and would like to see it improved.

But it still more logical to be apart of the EU.

EU funding helped a lot with my home: infrastructure projects, jobs, cross community work, research programs, mobility programs etc and i wanted to see that continue. As far as i am concerned its been nothing but a benefit for NI.

Same for West Yorkshire. Yes, I understand the flaws in the political and capitalistic side of it, but the benefits of the EU for all countries of the UK outweighs the problems.

Multinational armies do work and can be very effective (see: the British Indian Army) but they need a common core of officers and they need to be able to reliably source highly multilingual personnel (especially in combat service support.)

That was easy for the British Indian Army. And the British Indian Army was pretty good, for what it was. Its also the biggest volunteer army in history.

The problem would be intensified for Europe. For a start, it's not clear what the lingua franca would be. Secondly, the individual militaries have a lot of heritage and history, especially British and French, that they will not be willing to throw away.

Not just the BIA, but the Allies of WW1 and WW2, the Napoleonic Wars, Wars of Austrian and Spanish succession. Heck, most of European history was formed due to multinational armies at one time or another.

But I would like to see a great European Defence Agreement, similar to NATO.

[Greed and Death]

The other good things about the EU were the joint scientific and space programmes, and EU development funding, like my town got to help keep the library, arts groups, and community centres open.

I wasn't one for the capitalist side, and would like to see it improved.

But it still more logical to be apart of the EU.

EU funding helped a lot with my home: infrastructure projects, jobs, cross community work, research programs, mobility programs etc and i wanted to see that continue. As far as i am concerned its been nothing but a benefit for NI.

Don't worry I am sure Boris will get all of that EU funding without having to be in the EU or contribute to it.

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

EU funding helped a lot with my home: infrastructure projects, jobs, cross community work, research programs, mobility programs etc and i wanted to see that continue. As far as i am concerned its been nothing but a benefit for NI.

Don't worry I am sure Boris will get all of that EU funding without having to be in the EU or contribute to it.

Boris who? Can't put a face to the name.

[Salandriagado]

And its becoming clearer that the government refused the offer of ventilators from the EU entirely for political reasons.

Second source.

Brexit is more important than breathing, after all.

It would be the logical decision for a government 'getting Brexit done' as Cummings wanted them to say. Presumably most people who voted for Brexit would support them doing that, even at the cost UK lives. Though not being a Brexit supporter I disagree with them.

Signs are that they are sticking to the Brexit transition deadline of December 31, even though very little is likely being done on negotiating with the EU while the government struggles with the Coronavirus issue.

I dread to think what a is going to happen to our already weakened economy if we end up with a no deal Brexit. It is absolutely stupid.

I'm fairly confident that if you asked Brexit voters how many UK lives they were willing to sacrifice to get Brexit done quicker, the overwhelming modal number would be zero.

[Ifreann]

Don't worry I am sure Boris will get all of that EU funding without having to be in the EU or contribute to it.

Boris who? Can't put a face to the name.

[The Huskar Social Union]

Boris who? Can't put a face to the name.

The Yeltsin himself.

Big ruskie vibes

[Vassenor]

Boris who? Can't put a face to the name.

-drinks-