UK Politics Thread XII: The Lockdown

[Ostroeuropa]

It's not practical as a response to a temporary issue or losing on a particular front, but if everything the country is doing makes you miserable you'd be happier elsewhere. The constant negativity from the left might be why we keep losing elections, yeah?

Remember Blair and how he framed things?

i mean i've already said repeatedly that in order to win elections in this country you need to trick the electorate into doing what's best for them so i'm not a stranger to this idea. the curious part is that if you examine the arguments for brexit and the political climate behind it, it seems that the british people are quite aware that there's something not quite right in britain. they just can't pinpoint what it is. and of course you're not really allowed to say what it is because they'll call you a shithead and slander you for talking down to them.

go present a positive version of britain in 2020 and make it stick. i'll wait.

We have a newfound sense of the direction we wish to travel, away from neoliberalism and progressivism as norms, and towards other goals. We should seize the moment to enact these changes and to liberate ourselves from the malaise gripping the country, and so on.

[Souseiseki]

wait did you just try a "the reason england ignores scotland is actually scotlands fault" on me

Idk. He's pretty much right in that appeasement with the left wing on issues doesn't work and they merely use it to pursue a goal you don't agree with while refusing to compromise. That could also arguably be why the right wing decided, fuck it, we're going to behave the same way beginning with Thatcher.

I certainly wouldn't acknowledge feminists or other progressive demands. Not one inch and so on. If he views the SNP as behaving similarly there's no point in giving them anything they ask for. Same as the unions run by Marxists trying to overthrow society during the thatcher era. Same as feminists and their anti-male crusade. Ideologues can't be reasoned with, they are best ignored.

If Scotland wants more powers, elect people who want more powers as an end goal. Don't elect people willing to be disingenuous about it to further some other agenda.

You know the right wing "strategy" of "We step to the right, then demand you compromise, then we step to the right, then demand you compromise"?

Do you think people should entertain that, or see it for what it is?

Here's the kicker;

It's not a right wing strategy. They appropriated it after they got sick of the left wing doing it.

how would you deal with the SNP, exactly? the current approach has clearly not worked. so what is your grand plan to save the union, and most importantly, why will westminster never do it?

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

Which is exactly what one could have said to Eurosceptics in 2015, so this is not exactly durable, is it?

Eurosceptics weren't so pervasively dominated by being miserable and doomsaying. They got angry instead and said we have a bright future when we defeat the foe.

Only if you look at the angriest Brexiteers and compare them to the saddest Remainers.

Come on, most Eurosceptics before the Brexit vote were all "We can't decide stuff for ourselves" and "things used to be better" and "the UK will be a vassal state of the EU". Was there anger? Sure. There is also anger with remainers. Was there a lot of complaining against a vague concept of the EU? That there was as well, obviously. Just look at all the Daily Mail headlines. Bananas can't be curvy! Sausages can't be called sausages anymore! Trapezists will have to wear hard hats! Doom!

[Ostroeuropa]

Idk. He's pretty much right in that appeasement with the left wing on issues doesn't work and they merely use it to pursue a goal you don't agree with while refusing to compromise. That could also arguably be why the right wing decided, fuck it, we're going to behave the same way beginning with Thatcher.

I certainly wouldn't acknowledge feminists or other progressive demands. Not one inch and so on. If he views the SNP as behaving similarly there's no point in giving them anything they ask for. Same as the unions run by Marxists trying to overthrow society during the thatcher era. Same as feminists and their anti-male crusade. Ideologues can't be reasoned with, they are best ignored.

If Scotland wants more powers, elect people who want more powers as an end goal. Don't elect people willing to be disingenuous about it to further some other agenda.

You know the right wing "strategy" of "We step to the right, then demand you compromise, then we step to the right, then demand you compromise"?

Do you think people should entertain that, or see it for what it is?

Here's the kicker;

It's not a right wing strategy. They appropriated it after they got sick of the left wing doing it.

how would you deal with the SNP, exactly? the current approach has clearly not worked. so what is your grand plan to save the union, and most importantly, why will westminster never do it?

I'm far too openly an asshole to ever be in government. I straight up would not deal with the SNP. I'd host a convention with "The major parties" to discuss the future of Scotland where each constituency branch sent an ordinary member who hadn't held office.

The SNP would not be invited and i'd be explicit as to why using the reasoning above; they are not good faith actors. Also, they aren't a major party.

I'd lean on devolution max as a solution and try to get the convention to back it.

If all parties do, great.
If just mine does, lol kay great.
If none do, whatever. No problem. "Scottish people who want more powers shouldn't join an independence party if they want their voices heard in future.".

[Souseiseki]

i mean i've already said repeatedly that in order to win elections in this country you need to trick the electorate into doing what's best for them so i'm not a stranger to this idea. the curious part is that if you examine the arguments for brexit and the political climate behind it, it seems that the british people are quite aware that there's something not quite right in britain. they just can't pinpoint what it is. and of course you're not really allowed to say what it is because they'll call you a shithead and slander you for talking down to them.

go present a positive version of britain in 2020 and make it stick. i'll wait.

We have a newfound sense of the direction we wish to travel, away from neoliberalism and progressivism as norms, and towards other goals. We should seize the moment to enact these changes and to liberate ourselves from the malaise gripping the country, and so on.

let us be real for a moment. you are a young liberal. a hetereodox liberal, but a liberal nonetheless. what do you have to offer as an alternative to progressivism that isn't just a cherry picked anglo-progressivism by any other name? i mean now that i write that down that would probably actually 100% work because modern progressivism already is a cherry-picked progressivism so go right ahead, but you're going to struggle with people that are actually against progressivism.

[The Nihilistic view]

The problem with all off this and why it's totally irrelevant is the SNP have one goal. Everything they do is to further that goal. Pandering to such bleating is not going to make them go away or will it leave you in the place you would prefer to be in.

The SNP have really made themselves get to the point of being ignored by their constant moaning whilst at the same time by many accounts performing quite badly at actually running Scotland. It's got to the point I think many people in England don't give a fuck and that's because of the SNP not anything else, you can't be constructive with that tyoe of destructive force and I think people in England are waking up to that whilst at the same time less bothered about Scotland in the union. More of a we might as well do what we want and if they stay they stay if they go they go but pandering neither stops the constant independence calls nor gives us what we want.

So being ignored, you can lay that at the SNPs own door really. If they weren't in charge and going on about independence all the time people outside of Scotland might have listened.

wait did you just try a "the reason england ignores scotland is actually scotlands fault" on me

Why would anybody outside of Scotland listen to what the SNP want? Their whole aim is independence and it's all they go on about in Parliment, out of Parliment, in the TV studio on the radio. You know what they could do a commercial for Colgate that is supposed to be about getting young people to take care of their teeth and it would somehow become about Scottish independence and how its all westminsters fault. There is no point engadging, listen if it happens next vote next generation it happens but very few people care anymore because their desire is so naked.

Do you expect them to be able to act like they can do and say what they want in a vacuum and people to care? Do you expect them to be able to simultaneously constantly call for independence yet still be listened to about UK wide issues...... a UK they don't even want to be in? Why listen to somebody who won't stick around for the fallout from the situation they helped happen if you let them have an input.

At no point did they say if we forget about independence for a generation like we already promised will you listen to us? No day one of brexit it was blah blah blah 2nd independance vote blah blah blah. So yeah nobody cares down here what they think it's not even worth trying with them.

[Gormwood]

Eurosceptics weren't so pervasively dominated by being miserable and doomsaying. They got angry instead and said we have a bright future when we defeat the foe.

Only if you look at the angriest Brexiteers and compare them to the saddest Remainers.

Come on, most Eurosceptics before the Brexit vote were all "We can't decide stuff for ourselves" and "things used to be better" and "the UK will be a vassal state of the EU". Was there anger? Sure. There is also anger with remainers. Was there a lot of complaining against a vague concept of the EU? That there was as well, obviously. Just look at all the Daily Mail headlines. Bananas can't be curvy! Sausages can't be called sausages anymore! Trapezists will have to wear hard hats! Doom!

Now the UK gets to be a vassal state of the US instead. Not a good thing, as someone living in the US.

[Ostroeuropa]

We have a newfound sense of the direction we wish to travel, away from neoliberalism and progressivism as norms, and towards other goals. We should seize the moment to enact these changes and to liberate ourselves from the malaise gripping the country, and so on.

let us be real for a moment. you are a young liberal. a hetereodox liberal, but a liberal nonetheless. what do you have to offer as an alternative to progressivism that isn't just a cherry picked anglo-progressivism by any other name? i mean now that i write that down that would probably actually 100% work because modern progressivism already is a cherry-picked progressivism so go right ahead, but you're going to struggle with people that are actually against progressivism.

Most people aren't against equality and progress according to polls.

[Souseiseki]

how would you deal with the SNP, exactly? the current approach has clearly not worked. so what is your grand plan to save the union, and most importantly, why will westminster never do it?

I'm far too openly an asshole to ever be in government. I straight up would not deal with the SNP. I'd host a convention with "The major parties" to discuss the future of Scotland where each constituency branch sent an ordinary member who hadn't held office.

The SNP would not be invited and i'd be explicit as to why using the reasoning above; they are not good faith actors.

I'd lean on devolution max as a solution and try to get the convention to back it.

If all parties do, great.
If just mine does, lol kay great.
If none do, whatever. No problem. "Scottish people who want more powers shouldn't join an independence party if they want their voices heard in future.".

yeah the SNP were elected by scotland so if you try to cut them out it looks like you're trying to cut the elected voice of scotland out (which you basically are) which is a terrible idea and plays right into their hands. like imagine how much of a complete clown you'd look like inviting the "major parties" with like 5-6 seats between them and cutting out the party with 50+ seats. now keep in mind westminster is already basically doing this.

[Ostroeuropa]

I'm far too openly an asshole to ever be in government. I straight up would not deal with the SNP. I'd host a convention with "The major parties" to discuss the future of Scotland where each constituency branch sent an ordinary member who hadn't held office.

The SNP would not be invited and i'd be explicit as to why using the reasoning above; they are not good faith actors.

I'd lean on devolution max as a solution and try to get the convention to back it.

If all parties do, great.
If just mine does, lol kay great.
If none do, whatever. No problem. "Scottish people who want more powers shouldn't join an independence party if they want their voices heard in future.".

yeah the SNP were elected by scotland so if you try to cut them out it looks like you're trying to cut the elected voice of scotland out (which you basically are) which is a terrible idea and plays right into their hands. like imagine how much of a complete clown you'd look like inviting the "major parties" with like 5-6 seats between them and cutting out the party with 50+ seats. now keep in mind westminster is already basically doing this.

Leaning into it is fine. "I'm cutting out the voice of the SNP because our electoral system is broken and I reckon most SNP voters will prefer our solution to independence, and if they don't, they can vote SNP next time too. But we're not going to deal with the SNP.". Then you note how the parties you have attending represent a supermajority of actual voters in Scotland. This becomes more difficult if it ended up just being Labour being like "Devo max" and nobody agreed. At that point i'd be like; "Okay, devo max.".

"Wah wah, undemocratic." -> respond with "Okay. That's fine. i'm okay with not being democratic to save the union."

[Souseiseki]

let us be real for a moment. you are a young liberal. a hetereodox liberal, but a liberal nonetheless. what do you have to offer as an alternative to progressivism that isn't just a cherry picked anglo-progressivism by any other name? i mean now that i write that down that would probably actually 100% work because modern progressivism already is a cherry-picked progressivism so go right ahead, but you're going to struggle with people that are actually against progressivism.

Most people aren't against equality and progress according to polls.

exactly. so they're progressives up until the point where they personally don't like it anymore at which point oh no we've gone too far. again, the archetypal liberal.

so now you have a country that loves to talk about how progressive it is but also hates progressivism, but is also not really that progressive in the first place but they're all secretely reactionaries that have just convinced themselves they're progressives because they love gay people now. so you have people that aren't progressives that think they are progressive but also want to pretend they don't think they're progressives even though they do despite the fact they aren't. this is the kind of shit we need to deal with.

e: "we love free speech but only for us" is one amazing example of this.

[Ostroeuropa]

Most people aren't against equality and progress according to polls.

exactly. so they're progressives up until the point where they personally don't like it anymore at which point oh no we've gone too far. again, the archetypal liberal.

so now you have a country that loves to talk about how progressive it is but also hates progressivism, but is also not really that progressive in the first place but they're all secretely reactionaries that have just convinced themselves they're progressives because they love gay people now. so you have people that aren't progressives that think they are progressive but also want to pretend they don't think they're progressives even though they do despite the fact they aren't. this is the kind of shit we need to deal with.

Acting like the intersectional ideology types are necessarily closer to the goal of equality is the whole problem.

[Souseiseki]

yeah the SNP were elected by scotland so if you try to cut them out it looks like you're trying to cut the elected voice of scotland out (which you basically are) which is a terrible idea and plays right into their hands. like imagine how much of a complete clown you'd look like inviting the "major parties" with like 5-6 seats between them and cutting out the party with 50+ seats. now keep in mind westminster is already basically doing this.

Leaning into it is fine. "I'm cutting out the voice of the SNP because our electoral system is broken and I reckon most SNP voters will prefer our solution to independence, and if they don't, they can vote SNP next time too. But we're not going to deal with the SNP.". Then you note how the parties you have attending represent a supermajority of actual voters in Scotland. This becomes more difficult if it ended up just being Labour being like "Devo max" and nobody agreed. At that point i'd be like; "Okay, devo max.".

"Wah wah, undemocratic." -> respond with "Okay. That's fine. i'm okay with not being democratic to save the union."

disaster

[Ostroeuropa]

Leaning into it is fine. "I'm cutting out the voice of the SNP because our electoral system is broken and I reckon most SNP voters will prefer our solution to independence, and if they don't, they can vote SNP next time too. But we're not going to deal with the SNP.". Then you note how the parties you have attending represent a supermajority of actual voters in Scotland. This becomes more difficult if it ended up just being Labour being like "Devo max" and nobody agreed. At that point i'd be like; "Okay, devo max.".

"Wah wah, undemocratic." -> respond with "Okay. That's fine. i'm okay with not being democratic to save the union."

disaster

*shrug*
You could also try; "Well they were promised devo max so there we go.".

[Souseiseki]

exactly. so they're progressives up until the point where they personally don't like it anymore at which point oh no we've gone too far. again, the archetypal liberal.

so now you have a country that loves to talk about how progressive it is but also hates progressivism, but is also not really that progressive in the first place but they're all secretely reactionaries that have just convinced themselves they're progressives because they love gay people now. so you have people that aren't progressives that think they are progressive but also want to pretend they don't think they're progressives even though they do despite the fact they aren't. this is the kind of shit we need to deal with.

Acting like the intersectional ideology types are necessarily closer to the goal of equality is the whole problem.

yeah i'm sure you'll be able to turn britain from schizophrenic progressive tories into socialist egalitarians if only they could hear your voice

remember when we thought that britain, which generally supports jeremy corbyn's left-wing policies, would come around if only they could see through the lies of the billionaire press

the miracle never happen

[Ostroeuropa]

Acting like the intersectional ideology types are necessarily closer to the goal of equality is the whole problem.

yeah i'm sure you'll be able to turn britain from schizophrenic progressive tories into socialist egalitarians if only they could hear your voice

remember when we thought that britain, which generally supports jeremy corbyn's left-wing policies, would come around if only they could see through the lies of the billionaire press

the miracle never happen

Certainly not, i'm way too abrasive and i'd troll people for basically no reason. I'd be a toxic candidate whose only hope was relying on the bantz vote.

We haven't tried nationalism and anti-progressive socialism yet. If the public rejects that, i'll concede we've tried everything and it's tories all the way down.

[Souseiseki]

yeah i'm sure you'll be able to turn britain from schizophrenic progressive tories into socialist egalitarians if only they could hear your voice

remember when we thought that britain, which generally supports jeremy corbyn's left-wing policies, would come around if only they could see through the lies of the billionaire press

the miracle never happen

Certainly not, i'm way too abrasive and i'd troll people for basically no reason. I'd be a toxic candidate whose only hope was relying on the bantz vote.

We haven't tried nationalism and anti-progressive socialism yet. If the public rejects that, i'll concede we've tried everything and it's tories all the way down.

you're not anti-progressive

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

let us be real for a moment. you are a young liberal. a hetereodox liberal, but a liberal nonetheless. what do you have to offer as an alternative to progressivism that isn't just a cherry picked anglo-progressivism by any other name? i mean now that i write that down that would probably actually 100% work because modern progressivism already is a cherry-picked progressivism so go right ahead, but you're going to struggle with people that are actually against progressivism.

Most people aren't against equality and progress according to polls.

They aren't against the concept, until they know what it entails. Like, the love for equality and progress and the disgust for racism is imprinted on every child in school, and rightly so. But it is done while pointing at Nazi Germany, for example, so people believe that anything short of putting people in concentration camps cannot be racism. The collective idea of a racist is someone so comically open about racism that they don't actually exist. As soon as racism and sexism become even the tiniest bit nuanced, then people stop seeing it as racism and sexism.

How many people say 'I am not racist BUT' followed by some statement of egregious racism? That's exactly that. They don't recognise themselves as the overt racists they see in movies, so they think that they are not racists, while making racists statements is what makes someone a racist. If you say 'I think it would be better if all Muslims went back to the Middle East on their own accord', that's racist, even if you don't want to open concentration camps. Those stereotype racists in fiction aren't actually there to challenge racism, they are there to make nuanced racists feel okay about their racism, which is why you find so many people with racist views opposing racism.

[The Nihilistic view]

Mate I'd vote for the bantz!

Wasn't there that survation poll where only about 10% of people identified as feminists yet most people believe in equality. You'd think that would be a wake up call.

[Souseiseki]

Mate I'd vote for the bantz!

Wasn't there that survation poll where only about 10% of people identified as feminists yet most people believe in equality. You'd think that would be a wake up call.

yes. you're clearly willing to support politicians who act clowns and play into their PR game of pretending to be cool bantz guys. your support of johnson and farage already proves this.

[Rojava Free State]

Most people aren't against equality and progress according to polls.

They aren't against the concept, until they know what it entails. Like, the love for equality and progress and the disgust for racism is imprinted on every child in school, and rightly so. But it is done while pointing at Nazi Germany, for example, so people believe that anything short of putting people in concentration camps cannot be racism. The collective idea of a racist is someone so comically open about racism that they don't actually exist. As soon as racism and sexism become even the tiniest bit nuanced, then people stop seeing it as racism and sexism.

How many people say 'I am not racist BUT' followed by some statement of egregious racism? That's exactly that. They don't recognise themselves as the overt racists they see in movies, so they think that they are not racists, while making racists statements is what makes someone a racist. If you say 'I think it would be better if all Muslims went back to the Middle East on their own accord', that's racist, even if you don't want to open concentration camps. Those stereotype racists in fiction aren't actually there to challenge racism, they are there to make nuanced racists feel okay about their racism, which is why you find so many people with racist views opposing racism.

I think we as a society are noticing these nuanced racists more now though. People are starting to become aware of those folks who say things like "im not racist but can't those black boys stop shooting each other?" Overall I think most people in at least my country are neither all out racists nor in the closet ones. From my own experience, most people are pretty open to folks of different races and nationalities although there are many who are not

[Ostroeuropa]

Mate I'd vote for the bantz!

Wasn't there that survation poll where only about 10% of people identified as feminists yet most people believe in equality. You'd think that would be a wake up call.

I'd straight up be a danger to international stability. My response to the catholic church scandal was to propose we bring in the pope for questioning then have him put into a black site after which I would claim that I had witnessed a divine intervention in the crisis and have converted to being a catholic, since before my very eyes, the pope was transformed into the very likeness of the archbishop of cantebury. Then you present the archbishop of cantebury as his holiness the pope.

Then you just act hysterically angry with people for lacking faith and ask if they don't believe in miracles when they get angry with you for this, say they need more faith in jesus and the holy catholic churches teachings, and so on.

Under no circumstances should I be allowed to run a country.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

Mate I'd vote for the bantz!

Wasn't there that survation poll where only about 10% of people identified as feminists yet most people believe in equality. You'd think that would be a wake up call.

You'd think it be a wake up call, yes. But yet, here we are, with you still believing the nonsense peddled about feminism by alt right pundits.

[The Nihilistic view]

Mate I'd vote for the bantz!

Wasn't there that survation poll where only about 10% of people identified as feminists yet most people believe in equality. You'd think that would be a wake up call.

yes. you're clearly willing to support politicians who act clowns and play into their PR game of pretending to be cool bantz guys. your support of johnson and farage already proves this.

Maybe the SNP have epic bantz we just dont see it down here, if they could just display it south of the border sometimes thats all I ask.

[The Nihilistic view]

Mate I'd vote for the bantz!

Wasn't there that survation poll where only about 10% of people identified as feminists yet most people believe in equality. You'd think that would be a wake up call.

You'd think it be a wake up call, yes. But yet, here we are, with you still believing the nonsense peddled about feminism by alt right pundits.

Yeah damn BBC that bastion of the alt right.