UK Politics Thread XII: The Lockdown

[Philjia]

Improbably, Liz Truss has become involved in a second cheese related gaffe.

Got a non-FT link?

Nope, they seem to be the only ones carrying it. Got a picture though.

[The New California Republic]

Got a non-FT link?

Nope, they seem to be the only ones carrying it. Got a picture though.

£102,000 of sales to a nation of 125 million people is really low; has she considered that they just don't like it?

Oh and cheers for the screenshot.

[Uiiop]

Improbably, Liz Truss has become involved in a second cheese related gaffe.

Got a non-FT link?

https://archive.is/kQfQC
Life has many doors.

[Hurdergaryp]

Got a non-FT link?

https://archive.is/kQfQC
Life has many doors.

The Japanese bureaucracy is notoriously capable of interpreting trade deals differently than their Western partners, so this could become even more interesting than the UK bargained for. And if you complain, the default response tends to be that it is a Japanese thing that you would not understand, so just be polite and accept it.

[The New California Republic]

Got a non-FT link?

https://archive.is/kQfQC
Life has many doors.

Thanks to you too.

Doing some sums for a guesstimate, let's imagine that each sale of Stilton in Japan is the equivalent of £5 (I don't actually know how much imported cheese sells for in Japan, so it's just a rough guess). 102,000/5 is 20,400, so 20,400 individual sales of Stilton. 125,000,000/20,400 is 6,127. So, ignoring that there will likely be some repeated sales which will mean the number is even worse, only 1 in 6,127 Japanese people buy Stilton. Now, that could just be solely caused by lack of availability, or it could mean that Japanese people just generally don't like Stilton and there is no demand for it.

But since Stilton is clearly just a tertiary issue in terms of trade at best, the fact she is making such a fuss about it is perplexing.

[The Free Joy State]

https://archive.is/kQfQC
Life has many doors.

Thanks to you too.

Doing some sums for a guesstimate, let's imagine that each sale of Stilton in Japan is the equivalent of £5 (I don't actually know how much imported cheese sells for in Japan, so it's just a rough guess). 102,000/5 is 20,400, so 20,400 individual sales of Stilton. 125,000,000/20,400 is 6,127. So, ignoring that there will likely be some repeated sales which will mean the number is even worse, only 1 in 6,127 Japanese people buy Stilton. Now, that could just be solely caused by lack of availability, or it could mean that Japanese people just generally don't like Stilton and there is no demand for it.

But since Stilton is clearly just a tertiary issue in terms of trade at best, the fact she is making such a fuss about it is perplexing.

Well, to say that cheeses like cheddar, mozzarella and Red Leicester all apparently sell better in the UK... don't we have something else that we can barter in a trade deal for cars, rather than Stilton? I mean, for anybody, liking Stilton is a bit of a crapshoot.

[Celritannia]

Imagine thinking that nationalising the UK railway system, alongside a nationalised healthcare system, a nationalised fire service, a nationalised police service, a nationalised welfare system, a nationalised road system, a nationalised education system will somehow lead towards Stalinism.

Oh, look how evil and communistic the Nordic Countries are, or New Zealand is. Oh the horror of their better societies.

[Salandriagado]

https://archive.is/kQfQC
Life has many doors.

Thanks to you too.

Doing some sums for a guesstimate, let's imagine that each sale of Stilton in Japan is the equivalent of £5 (I don't actually know how much imported cheese sells for in Japan, so it's just a rough guess). 102,000/5 is 20,400, so 20,400 individual sales of Stilton. 125,000,000/20,400 is 6,127. So, ignoring that there will likely be some repeated sales which will mean the number is even worse, only 1 in 6,127 Japanese people buy Stilton. Now, that could just be solely caused by lack of availability, or it could mean that Japanese people just generally don't like Stilton and there is no demand for it.

But since Stilton is clearly just a tertiary issue in terms of trade at best, the fact she is making such a fuss about it is perplexing.

Trying to get the previous cheese-related gaff off the front page of google searches for "Liz Truss Cheese"?

[The Free Joy State]

Thanks to you too.

Doing some sums for a guesstimate, let's imagine that each sale of Stilton in Japan is the equivalent of £5 (I don't actually know how much imported cheese sells for in Japan, so it's just a rough guess). 102,000/5 is 20,400, so 20,400 individual sales of Stilton. 125,000,000/20,400 is 6,127. So, ignoring that there will likely be some repeated sales which will mean the number is even worse, only 1 in 6,127 Japanese people buy Stilton. Now, that could just be solely caused by lack of availability, or it could mean that Japanese people just generally don't like Stilton and there is no demand for it.

But since Stilton is clearly just a tertiary issue in terms of trade at best, the fact she is making such a fuss about it is perplexing.

Trying to get the previous cheese-related gaff off the front page of google searches for "Liz Truss Cheese"?

Personally, if I were Liz Truss (a sentence which I don't like saying, incidentally), I would just stop talking about cheese. I mean, does she forever want to be remembered as the MP who gave a lot of speeches on cheese?

[Celritannia]

Trying to get the previous cheese-related gaff off the front page of google searches for "Liz Truss Cheese"?

Personally, if I were Liz Truss (a sentence which I don't like saying, incidentally), I would just stop talking about cheese. I mean, does she forever want to be remembered as the MP who gave a lot of speeches on cheese?

At least she's a consistent politician.

[Salandriagado]

Trying to get the previous cheese-related gaff off the front page of google searches for "Liz Truss Cheese"?

Personally, if I were Liz Truss (a sentence which I don't like saying, incidentally), I would just stop talking about cheese. I mean, does she forever want to be remembered as the MP who gave a lot of speeches on cheese?

I've also just learned something else relevant: the Japanese population is 70% lactose intolerant. Surely our government should have (a) been able to find that out, and (b) been able to join the dots.

[Vassenor]

Personally, if I were Liz Truss (a sentence which I don't like saying, incidentally), I would just stop talking about cheese. I mean, does she forever want to be remembered as the MP who gave a lot of speeches on cheese?

I've also just learned something else relevant: the Japanese population is 70% lactose intolerant. Surely our government should have (a) been able to find that out, and (b) been able to join the dots.

That would require them being actually competent though. As we've seen so far over the last decade that's very much an alien concept to this government.

[The Blaatschapen]

Trying to get the previous cheese-related gaff off the front page of google searches for "Liz Truss Cheese"?

Personally, if I were Liz Truss (a sentence which I don't like saying, incidentally), I would just stop talking about cheese. I mean, does she forever want to be remembered as the MP who gave a lot of speeches on cheese?

So many cheese puns, but in order to not derail this thread, I won't start. Just imagine two pages full of gouda old fashioned puns.

[The Nihilistic view]

Check out Thatcher’s Children, Blair’s Babies.

Thatcherism won. The property-owning democracy was invincible. Then, mere months after the article was published, this generational consensus came crashing down - I really think people don't get how effective Labour's 2017 online campaign was at targeting the young and turning them from socially liberal Thatcherites (see how they voted in 2015) into socially liberal Corbynites. If the Conservatives had abolished tuition fees, had made sure the young didn't feel the impact of austerity, and had extended the property-owning democracy to them, right now they would be as dominant as Japan's LDP.

But instead they fucked it all up.

Young people voting Conservative went up by a couple of % from 2017 to 2019 and the tipping point for voting Conservative over Labour came down from 47 to 39. So I don't think it's some kind of trend in one direction caused by corbyn because it started to go back the other way last election. May being useless on the campaign trail has a large part to do with it.

[Celritannia]

Check out Thatcher’s Children, Blair’s Babies.

Thatcherism won. The property-owning democracy was invincible. Then, mere months after the article was published, this generational consensus came crashing down - I really think people don't get how effective Labour's 2017 online campaign was at targeting the young and turning them from socially liberal Thatcherites (see how they voted in 2015) into socially liberal Corbynites. If the Conservatives had abolished tuition fees, had made sure the young didn't feel the impact of austerity, and had extended the property-owning democracy to them, right now they would be as dominant as Japan's LDP.

But instead they fucked it all up.

Young people voting Conservative went up by a couple of % from 2017 to 2019 and the tipping point for voting Conservative over Labour came down from 47 to 39. So I don't think it's some kind of trend in one direction caused by corbyn because it started to go back the other way last election. May being useless on the campaign trail has a large part to do with it.

Remember, proportionally, most people did not vote for the Tory Party.

EDIT

Also, here is a poll of voting intentions showing the votes per age group.

Voters 39 and below were still learning towards the non-right-wing parties.

SECOND EDIT

Here is the 2017 comparison of voting intentions.

So no, young conservatives did not tip the vote in the 2019 election.

[The Nihilistic view]

Young people voting Conservative went up by a couple of % from 2017 to 2019 and the tipping point for voting Conservative over Labour came down from 47 to 39. So I don't think it's some kind of trend in one direction caused by corbyn because it started to go back the other way last election. May being useless on the campaign trail has a large part to do with it.

Remember, proportionally, most people did not vote for the Tory Party.

EDIT

Also, here is a poll of voting intentions showing the votes per age group.

Voters 39 and below were still learning towards the non-right-wing parties.

SECOND EDIT

Here is the 2017 comparison of voting intentions.

So no, young conservatives did not tip the vote in the 2019 election.

Well done for addressing things I didn't say.

[Celritannia]

Remember, proportionally, most people did not vote for the Tory Party.

EDIT

Also, here is a poll of voting intentions showing the votes per age group.

Voters 39 and below were still learning towards the non-right-wing parties.

SECOND EDIT

Here is the 2017 comparison of voting intentions.

So no, young conservatives did not tip the vote in the 2019 election.

Well done for addressing things I didn't say.

But you still forgot that, proportionally, the Conservatives are finding it harder to get the people on their side.

[Ostroeuropa]

Young people voting Conservative went up by a couple of % from 2017 to 2019 and the tipping point for voting Conservative over Labour came down from 47 to 39. So I don't think it's some kind of trend in one direction caused by corbyn because it started to go back the other way last election. May being useless on the campaign trail has a large part to do with it.

Remember, proportionally, most people did not vote for the Tory Party.

EDIT

Also, here is a poll of voting intentions showing the votes per age group.

Voters 39 and below were still learning towards the non-right-wing parties.

SECOND EDIT

Here is the 2017 comparison of voting intentions.

So no, young conservatives did not tip the vote in the 2019 election.

This ignores turnout. The older demographics mobilize whereas the younger ones don't, in part because they dislike all the major parties. While they don't vote conservative, they don't vote Labour either. 47% of young people turnout compared to 74% of older people. Within that 30-ish percent of youth who aren't turning out who do for older demographics, a substantial number won't vote for a right wing economic plan, but become disillusioned with Labour on sociocultural issues and so decline to vote. Part of that disillusion is due to criticism of the progressive left from right-wing culture commentators and younger conservatives. (As well as a smattering of left-wing critics of the progressive left on sociocultural issues.).

They don't need to convince people to vote Tory to win, just need to convince them to abandon Labour.

The Tories also aren't exactly a principled party. They are utility maximizers. As the population ages and older demographics die off we'll see the Tories shift leftward on economics to triangulate how right wing they can be while still convincing the new electorate to vote for them based on opposition to Labour cultural policy. (The older demographics are actually substantially left wing on a number of economic topics, but have higher tolerance for right wing economics if it means keeping Labour out of power. The younger demographic appears to be less willing to tolerate this, but there is a threshhold where they will, and the Tories will adjust to meet that threshhold as it becomes necessary.).

Once you adjust for Turnout, you appear to be suggesting that Labour is some kind of barnstorming popular movement because it can get 1/3rd of young people to vote for it and almost nobody else.

[Vassenor]

Well done for addressing things I didn't say.

But you still forgot that, proportionally, the Conservatives are finding it harder to get the people on their side.

Basically this government is a worked example of the problems with FPTP and opposition splitting.

[Celritannia]

Remember, proportionally, most people did not vote for the Tory Party.

EDIT

Also, here is a poll of voting intentions showing the votes per age group.

Voters 39 and below were still learning towards the non-right-wing parties.

SECOND EDIT

Here is the 2017 comparison of voting intentions.

So no, young conservatives did not tip the vote in the 2019 election.

This ignores turnout. The older demographics mobilize whereas the younger ones don't, in part because they dislike all the major parties. While they don't vote conservative, they don't vote Labour either. 47% of young people turnout compared to 74% of older people. Within that 30-ish percent of youth who aren't turning out who do for older demographics, a substantial number won't vote for a right wing economic plan, but become disillusioned with Labour on sociocultural issues and so decline to vote. Part of that disillusion is due to criticism of the progressive left from right-wing culture commentators and younger conservatives. (As well as a smattering of left-wing critics of the progressive left on sociocultural issues.).

They don't need to convince people to vote Tory to win, just need to convince them to abandon Labour.

The Tories also aren't exactly a principled party. They are utility maximizers. As the population ages and older demographics die off we'll see the Tories shift leftward on economics to triangulate how right wing they can be while still convincing the new electorate to vote for them based on opposition to Labour cultural policy. (The older demographics are actually substantially left wing on a number of economic topics, but have higher tolerance for right wing economics if it means keeping Labour out of power. The younger demographic appears to be less willing to tolerate this, but there is a threshhold where they will, and the Tories will adjust to meet that threshhold as it becomes necessary.).

Once you adjust for Turnout, you appear to be suggesting that Labour is some kind of barnstorming popular movement because it can get 1/3rd of young people to vote for it and almost nobody else.

And this, right here, is why FPTP needs to go.
Otherwise it will be a never ending game of tactical voting.

I am not saying the young are voting for labour predominately, I am just saying the actual vote shares are not giving the Tories the majority of votes.

[Ostroeuropa]

This ignores turnout. The older demographics mobilize whereas the younger ones don't, in part because they dislike all the major parties. While they don't vote conservative, they don't vote Labour either. 47% of young people turnout compared to 74% of older people. Within that 30-ish percent of youth who aren't turning out who do for older demographics, a substantial number won't vote for a right wing economic plan, but become disillusioned with Labour on sociocultural issues and so decline to vote. Part of that disillusion is due to criticism of the progressive left from right-wing culture commentators and younger conservatives. (As well as a smattering of left-wing critics of the progressive left on sociocultural issues.).

They don't need to convince people to vote Tory to win, just need to convince them to abandon Labour.

The Tories also aren't exactly a principled party. They are utility maximizers. As the population ages and older demographics die off we'll see the Tories shift leftward on economics to triangulate how right wing they can be while still convincing the new electorate to vote for them based on opposition to Labour cultural policy. (The older demographics are actually substantially left wing on a number of economic topics, but have higher tolerance for right wing economics if it means keeping Labour out of power. The younger demographic appears to be less willing to tolerate this, but there is a threshhold where they will, and the Tories will adjust to meet that threshhold as it becomes necessary.).

Once you adjust for Turnout, you appear to be suggesting that Labour is some kind of barnstorming popular movement because it can get 1/3rd of young people to vote for it and almost nobody else.

And this, right here, is why FPTP needs to go.
Otherwise it will be a never ending game of tactical voting.

I mean, I agree. It's just that the immediate result would be a left wing economics, right wing sociocultural party of power that remains in office for decades. Given that this is the exact opposite of both major parties elites priorities, it's not going to happen.

I'd also suggest to you that the progressive left can't help itself and if they become comfortable in the polls, the mask will come off and a bunch of extremist sociocultural stuff will pour out, leading to those apathetic young voters immediate polarizing to vote Tory.

Currently the apathetic youth don't vote because they don't need to. Labour will lose anyway, and this way they get a clear conscience of not voting for the Tory economic plan. When Labour looks set to win, that becomes a shakier prospect.

Corbyn did well by focusing heavily on class and economics and ignoring the sociocultural bollocks, as that's what really unites the youth. When he lost, it was because he failed to keep that framework up.

[Vassenor]

And this, right here, is why FPTP needs to go.
Otherwise it will be a never ending game of tactical voting.

I mean, I agree. It's just that the immediate result would be a left wing economics, right wing sociocultural party of power that remains in office for decades. Given that this is the exact opposite of both major parties elites priorities, it's not going to happen.

I'd also suggest to you that the progressive left can't help itself and if they become comfortable in the polls, the mask will come off and a bunch of extremist sociocultural stuff will pour out, leading to those apathetic young voters immediate polarizing to vote Tory.

Funny how everything always comes back to "progressivism = evil, right-wing sociocultural policy = good".

[Ostroeuropa]

I mean, I agree. It's just that the immediate result would be a left wing economics, right wing sociocultural party of power that remains in office for decades. Given that this is the exact opposite of both major parties elites priorities, it's not going to happen.

I'd also suggest to you that the progressive left can't help itself and if they become comfortable in the polls, the mask will come off and a bunch of extremist sociocultural stuff will pour out, leading to those apathetic young voters immediate polarizing to vote Tory.

Funny how everything always comes back to "progressivism = evil, right-wing sociocultural policy = good".

Not everything. Some things come back to "right wing economics = evil, left wing economics = good".

[-Ra-]

Young people are increasingly turning away from Labour because they are incompetent. Give it a few decades.

Funny how everything always comes back to "progressivism = evil, right-wing sociocultural policy = good".

Yeah I wonder why that is...

[Celritannia]

And this, right here, is why FPTP needs to go.
Otherwise it will be a never ending game of tactical voting.

I mean, I agree. It's just that the immediate result would be a left wing economics, right wing sociocultural party of power that remains in office for decades. Given that this is the exact opposite of both major parties elites priorities, it's not going to happen.

I'd also suggest to you that the progressive left can't help itself and if they become comfortable in the polls, the mask will come off and a bunch of extremist sociocultural stuff will pour out, leading to those apathetic young voters immediate polarizing to vote Tory.

Currently the apathetic youth don't vote because they don't need to. Labour will lose anyway, and this way they get a clear conscience of not voting for the Tory economic plan. When Labour looks set to win, that becomes a shakier prospect.

Corbyn did well by focusing heavily on class and economics and ignoring the sociocultural bollocks, as that's what really unites the youth. When he lost, it was because he failed to keep that framework up.

A lot of members of Labour do actually have a strong base for moving to a PR system and is one thing Keir Starmer is adamant about, along with several of the other parties like Lib Dems and Greens.