NationStates

Posted: **Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:15 pm**

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Chan Island wrote:
Kneejerks are not good, but it's obvious that we have to seriously review and reform the way in which we do sentences. We've now had multiple times where we've released crazy madmen and terrorists from prison and they've gone on to immediately go hurt or kill people.

I would be very uncomfortable with punishing people for crimes committed by others though. Crime prevention never calls for pre-emptive action against people we've no proof are going to do anything.

of course. that's why the great free west takes the approach of making something they think might be connected itself a crime. that way you can punish people for that crime instead of punishing them for a future crime, even though the only reason that thing itself is a crime is because of its connection to future crime. so now you've got a way to punish people for future crimes or the crimes of others while pretending you aren't through your invented crime. it's genius!

Posted: **Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:17 pm**

Gormwood wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:If we lose intel sharing and law enforcement cooperation with the EU by losing ECHR membership, this is a hard decision.
I despise intelligence and law enforcement sharing. I also wish to remain in the ECHR.

Law enforcement and intelligence agencies not sharing is how 9/11 was allowed to happen. Do you want your own 9/11?

Shit Gauthier, I didn't know you were a Bush admin guy now. No wonder you support literally everything Uncle Sam does to spy on us when you throw out lines like that.

Posted: **Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:20 pm**

Gormwood wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:If we lose intel sharing and law enforcement cooperation with the EU by losing ECHR membership, this is a hard decision.
I despise intelligence and law enforcement sharing. I also wish to remain in the ECHR.

Law enforcement and intelligence agencies not sharing is how 9/11 was allowed to happen. Do you want your own 9/11?

Them sharing is how a lot of shady shit goes down though.

Posted: **Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:36 pm**

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Gormwood wrote:Law enforcement and intelligence agencies not sharing is how 9/11 was allowed to happen. Do you want your own 9/11?

Them sharing is how a lot of shady shit goes down though.

Like?

Posted: **Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:38 pm**

Gormwood wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Them sharing is how a lot of shady shit goes down though.

Like?

Mass surveillance of their own citizens. Oh wait, I forgot you think that's a good thing. I'm so glad we gave Trump that power, aren't you Gauth :^)

Posted: **Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:40 pm**

The East Marches II wrote:
Gormwood wrote:Like?

Mass surveillance of their own citizens. Oh wait, I forgot you think that's a good thing. I'm so glad we gave Trump that power, aren't you Gauth :^)

Today in "shit nobody said"...

Posted: **Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:43 pm**

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Gormwood wrote:Law enforcement and intelligence agencies not sharing is how 9/11 was allowed to happen. Do you want your own 9/11?

Them sharing is how a lot of shady shit goes down though.

GVH: a small number of deaths is a price we should pay for releasing terrorists due to their incarceration being against their human rights.

Posted: **Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:44 pm**

Vassenor wrote:
The East Marches II wrote:
Mass surveillance of their own citizens. Oh wait, I forgot you think that's a good thing. I'm so glad we gave Trump that power, aren't you Gauth :^)

Today in "shit nobody said"...

That so called intelligence sharing is how they get around rules on spying on their own citizens. Gauthier has repeatedly said he is infavor of such things in the name of security. Even saying Trump is too dumb to abuse them. I am disappointed to find he supports tyranny wherever it appears globally apparently. I wish he would engage in a healthy debate over it's merits with me. Which is what I was trying to instigate.

Posted: **Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:44 pm**

Celritannia wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Them sharing is how a lot of shady shit goes down though.

GVH: a small number of deaths is a price we should pay for releasing terrorists due to it being against human rights.

Maybe if we cut off NHS and social service assistance for terrorists he'd be fine with it.

Posted: **Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:49 pm**

Celritannia wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Them sharing is how a lot of shady shit goes down though.

GVH: a small number of deaths is a price we should pay for releasing terrorists due to their incarceration against human rights.

Human rights are a pretty big thing to me. It's what I study at university full time.

Posted: **Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:54 pm**

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Celritannia wrote:
GVH: a small number of deaths is a price we should pay for releasing terrorists due to their incarceration against human rights.

Human rights are a pretty big thing to me. It's what I study at university full time.

Human Rights are also a big thing for me, but releasing a convicted terrorist early who went out to stab people is not in the interest of human rights if he is taking away people's lives.

Posted: **Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:57 pm**

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Human rights are a pretty big thing to me. It's what I study at university full time.

A reminder that human rights are dependent on humanity in order to exist.

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:'Humanity' and 'Society' can completely collapse for all I care. What do they matter lol

Posted: **Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:01 pm**

Celritannia wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Human rights are a pretty big thing to me. It's what I study at university full time.

Human Rights are also a big thing for me, but releasing a convicted terrorist early who went out to stab people is not in the interest of human rights if he is taking away people's lives.

I see human rights as a negative obligation on the government. They generally don't oblige them to do certain things, more to refrain from doing them. For example, not making people serve longer sentences based on arbitrary criteria. Not monitoring ethnic groups based on arbitrary criteria.

Posted: **Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:22 pm**

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Celritannia wrote:
Human Rights are also a big thing for me, but releasing a convicted terrorist early who went out to stab people is not in the interest of human rights if he is taking away people's lives.

I see human rights as a negative obligation on the government. They generally don't oblige them to do certain things, more to refrain from doing them. For example, not making people serve longer sentences based on arbitrary criteria. Not monitoring ethnic groups based on arbitrary criteria.

Says the person who dislikes government intervention in anything, including basic human rights for healthcare, housing, benefits, basic living wage, regulating businesses for better environment protection, etc.

Furthermore this was not arbitrary, the person in question was a convicted terrorist. Key word, terrorist, meaning to cause terror amongst the population.
Whose human rights matter when the person who you are defending wishes to take the lives of others?

Posted: **Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:37 pm**

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Alvecia wrote:It's not really spite, it's just good sense for them.

The EU first and foremost has to look after its members. Now that we're not one, it's under no obligation to support us. Spain on the other hand is still a member, thus it benefits the EU to side with it's member over a non-member.

Thinking they wouldn't is naivety of the highest order.

It sets a very bad precedent if they back Spain's (laughable) claim. There's a legally-binding treaty setting out who owns Gibraltar. It is international law that goes undisputed aside from by Spain.

The Treaty of Utrecht is not in question. What is happening is that unless UK gets Spain to agree on a trade deal there will be no trade deal, and people in Gibraltar are going to pay customs on eggs and milk bought in Spanish supermarkets and carried over the border. Although per BoJo's plan they are going to be forced to pay those customs anyway.

Posted: **Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:58 pm**

The thing that surprises me is they were ever treated like normal criminals in the first place.

Posted: **Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:58 pm**

The East Marches II wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
Today in "shit nobody said"...

That so called intelligence sharing is how they get around rules on spying on their own citizens. Gauthier has repeatedly said he is infavor of such things in the name of security. Even saying Trump is too dumb to abuse them. I am disappointed to find he supports tyranny wherever it appears globally apparently. I wish he would engage in a healthy debate over it's merits with me. Which is what I was trying to instigate.

It's quite clear what you were trying to instigate. No one cares about your ongoing, frankly quite boring feud with Gauthier. Please keep it out of our thread cos as previously said, it's really really boring fam.

Posted: **Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:29 pm**

Apparently if you have cancer then the NHS will pay for a gym membership at a local gym so you can build some muscle before they start chemo. How awesome is that?

Posted: **Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:31 pm**

Fartsniffage wrote:Apparently if you have cancer then the NHS will pay for a gym membership at a local gym so you can build some muscle before they start chemo. How awesome is that?

I learned something today.

Posted: **Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:16 pm**

The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:
The East Marches II wrote:
That so called intelligence sharing is how they get around rules on spying on their own citizens. Gauthier has repeatedly said he is infavor of such things in the name of security. Even saying Trump is too dumb to abuse them. I am disappointed to find he supports tyranny wherever it appears globally apparently. I wish he would engage in a healthy debate over it's merits with me. Which is what I was trying to instigate.

It's quite clear what you were trying to instigate. No one cares about your ongoing, frankly quite boring feud with Gauthier. Please keep it out of our thread cos as previously said, it's really really boring fam.

Oh, is he still trying? Pffft. Blocked him long ago, that's pretty sad and pathetic that he has nothing better to do in his life than try to dunk on people and get an angry rise out of them.

Posted: **Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:42 pm**

Emergency legislation will be introduced to end the automatic early release from prison of terror offenders, the government has said.

Justice Secretary Robert Buckland told MPs the change would apply to both current and future offenders.

Terror offenders will only be considered for release once they have served two-thirds of their sentence and with the approval of the Parole Board.

It follows two attacks by men convicted of terror offences in recent months.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51364047

Posted: **Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:44 pm**

The New California Republic wrote:
Emergency legislation will be introduced to end the automatic early release from prison of terror offenders, the government has said.

Justice Secretary Robert Buckland told MPs the change would apply to both current and future offenders.

Terror offenders will only be considered for release once they have served two-thirds of their sentence and with the approval of the Parole Board.

It follows two attacks by men convicted of terror offences in recent months.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51364047

That's gonna mean a bunch of legal challenges. Not on the Parole Board bit, but on the increase from half to two thirds.

Posted: **Mon Feb 03, 2020 4:08 pm**

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Chan Island wrote:
Kneejerks are not good, but it's obvious that we have to seriously review and reform the way in which we do sentences. We've now had multiple times where we've released crazy madmen and terrorists from prison and they've gone on to immediately go hurt or kill people.

I would be very uncomfortable with punishing people for crimes committed by others though. Crime prevention never calls for pre-emptive action against people we've no proof are going to do anything.

Why is anyone taking a page from minority report on crime prevention?

Posted: **Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:20 pm**

new poll showing support for scottish independence at 52%

the magic number

e: oh and a comfortable predicted win for pro-independence parties at the next scottish parliament election

Posted: **Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:22 pm**

Souseiseki wrote:new poll showing support for scottish independence at 52%

the magic number

What would said process be called, Scexit? That sounds wrong...

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UK Politics Thread XII: The Lockdown