UK Politics Thread XII: The Lockdown

[Vassenor]

Op Ed: Boris Johnson has given us a new mantra: Leave home. Forget the NHS. Save Pret

So yeah, looks like clapping didn't help the STONKS enough. Or we're back to putting the wiggly line ahead of human lives because reasons.

[The Nihilistic view]

https://www.businessforscotland.com/poll-70-would-trust-scottish-government-with-powers-to-run-economy/

dear god. 59% trust the scottish government more with the economy, 15% are unsure and 26% trust westminster more with the economy. 48% agree that independence would be good for the economy, 14% were unsure and 38% disagreed. excluding don't knows that's 70% trust the scottish government more with the economy and 55% think independence would be good for the economy. unbelievable. the union is absolutely roasted and toasted.

Odd considering Scotland's deficit has grown faster than rUK.

The might be good on a single issue but Independance parties are rarely good at running a country. But it's also not why they are elected in the first place.

[The Nihilistic view]

I really don't understand Brexit supporters who are against Scottish independence.

Traditional Labour voters that know an independent Scotland means 30 years of Tory power or New Labour 2.0?

[The Nihilistic view]

scotland would have been a country on the level or switzerland or norway thanks to the north sea oil had it been allowed to go independent and invest in itself in the 70s. the UK government, having realized this during its own internal reports, declared the reports top secret and hid them then proceeded to use the oil revenues to prop up its own government and failed to properly invest in scotland. decades later, this is used as an argument in favour of remaining in the UK.

Don't pretend it wouldn't go on aquiring Mars Corperation!

[Dumb Ideologies]

Op Ed: Boris Johnson has given us a new mantra: Leave home. Forget the NHS. Save Pret

So yeah, looks like clapping didn't help the STONKS enough. Or we're back to putting the wiggly line ahead of human lives because reasons.

It's a bit more complicated than that. It is not a simple matter of "line vs lives". The way in which the government messed up the early stages of the lockdown has given us both more deaths AND a line that has gone further down.

I should also mention that the "wiggly line" going down has impacts on jobs, usually leads to cuts in welfare, and has substantial impacts on people's ability to afford food and shelter. This in turn has significant net physical and mental health impacts across society that worsen with the length and depth of the recession, both in times of decreased quality of life and on actual increased deaths. Bear in mind also that pre-COVID studies found that people started off enjoying working from home but after a year the majority of them were suffering from depression and social isolation and were desperate to return. We are also pretty likely to have a second wave by Christmas and if we don't get some economic activity in by then even more jobs are likely to go.

The problem is not prioritising the "wiggly line" but that there is a complete vacuum of leadership and that policy is fairly obviously made up on ad-hoc basis by a small clique who have very little idea of what they're doing, and are willing to contravene their own rules and then pretend that's okay. Policies are not only regularly seen doing u-turns but elaborate sequences of drifts around London's elusive parking spots. We've seen the effects of this already, and we'll see it again in the event of a second lockdown. But I suppose a proper analysis doesn't easily fit into a hashtag or a nice post-and-run zero-effort one liner.

[The Blaatschapen]

I didn't vote for Brexit, but given how much we fund Scotland - to the tune of 15 billion last fiscal year to make up their shortfall, if they want to leave I'd let them.

That''s 288 million a week that could go to the NHS, if anyone fancies putting it on a bus

And it's been a constant deficit for a generation.

one of the most disgusting effects of london being an economic and political blackhole is that the rest of the UK is systematically under developed and atrophied then when they complain about it or suggest they'd be better off by themselves they're told "but aaaah hmm are you sure you're not too poor for that?"

Ah yeah, I remember "Spain’s top diplomat" to Scotland saying that. I'm sure that was reassuring.

Just like I'm sure he's got the authority to say that for certain right?

At best you can say it's not clear if they would or wouldn't.

based on that article it seems like the big problem was about him saying scotland would not need to queue up to rejoin the EU, not about the blocking due to secession part. and the comment he made that in response to was about someone suggesting spain would veto scotland if it left during brexit and it would need to queue up to join the EU after. so nothing in your links suggests that spain would actually veto the application of a legally independent scotland.

while it's certainly possible they could still veto broadly speaking the idea th
at spain is going to fight every independence movement ever in every country to own the catalans is silly

Just get some Scottish military in Gibraltar. Declare both independent at the same time.

Then subjugate Gibraltar to Spanish rule in trade for entrance to the EU.

[The New California Republic]

Just get some Scottish military in Gibraltar. Declare both independent at the same time.

That was actually one of the questions I had during the independence referendum: where would Scotland obtain military hardware from? The rUK likely wouldn't sell it to them, and I can guarantee they'd remove everything when the MOD bases were withdrawn.

[Souseiseki]

Just get some Scottish military in Gibraltar. Declare both independent at the same time.

That was actually one of the questions I had during the independence referendum: where would Scotland obtain military hardware from? The rUK likely wouldn't sell it to them, and I can guarantee they'd remove everything when the MOD bases were withdrawn.

the answer lies somewhere between "france and germany probably, maybe america" and "it doesn't really matter because we'd never have more than a token force like ireland does"

[The New California Republic]

That was actually one of the questions I had during the independence referendum: where would Scotland obtain military hardware from? The rUK likely wouldn't sell it to them, and I can guarantee they'd remove everything when the MOD bases were withdrawn.

the answer lies somewhere between "france and germany probably, maybe america" and "it doesn't really matter because we'd never have more than a token force like ireland does"

And/or we'd just have Bear bombers flying down the Forth and Sturgeon wouldn't bother her arse.

[Dumb Ideologies]

Some might say that the evening of a Bank Holiday Weekend just before most kids return back to school is an unusual time to release guidance on how schools should prepare for the possibility of local lockdowns. Possibly said guidance would have been much easier to apply if released at a time when schools were much quieter and not already right at the climax of balls-deep chaotic preparation for an entirely impractical no-negotiation, full-curriculum, all-classes reopening.

Oh well, I'm sure the government has its reasons!

[Novus America]

Since the support for it wasn't strong in the 70s the point is moot.

i mean the point about the oil revenues being squandered and the lack of investment in scotland aren't made moot at all by that. and considering the fact that the reason they hid the report in the first place was because they were worried that releasing it would increase support for scottish independence, i'd say it's very relevant. the key point is that scotland was treated like shit and will continue to be treated like shit.

The problem is what are your more interested in, revenge or economic viability? It is no longer the 70s so just because independence might have worked in the 1970s is not really relevant to whether or not it would work in the 2020s.

But sure if you think you are still being mistreated you should wish to address that, but the best way to address it might also be different.

Although this is why the U.K. needs federalism, then the federal constitution could prevent the abuses you gave problems with.

But I think the U.K. moves to slowly to save itself, I mean after all people were telling you “we need federalism to save Ireland and the Empire” but nope. Waited until it was way too late.

[Souseiseki]

i mean the point about the oil revenues being squandered and the lack of investment in scotland aren't made moot at all by that. and considering the fact that the reason they hid the report in the first place was because they were worried that releasing it would increase support for scottish independence, i'd say it's very relevant. the key point is that scotland was treated like shit and will continue to be treated like shit.

The problem is what are your more interested in, revenge or economic viability? It is no longer the 70s so just because independence might have worked in the 1970s is not really relevant to whether or not it would work in the 2020s.

But sure if you think you are still being mistreated you should wish to address that, but the best way to address it might also be different.

Although this is why the U.K. needs federalism, then the federal constitution could prevent the abuses you gave problems with.

But I think the U.K. moves to slowly to save itself, I mean after all people were telling you “we need federalism to save Ireland and the Empire” but nope. Waited until it was way too late.

well yes, but the problem with constitutional reform is what do you do when the country with the most political power doesn't want a new constitution?

[Novus America]

The problem is what are your more interested in, revenge or economic viability? It is no longer the 70s so just because independence might have worked in the 1970s is not really relevant to whether or not it would work in the 2020s.

But sure if you think you are still being mistreated you should wish to address that, but the best way to address it might also be different.

Although this is why the U.K. needs federalism, then the federal constitution could prevent the abuses you gave problems with.

But I think the U.K. moves to slowly to save itself, I mean after all people were telling you “we need federalism to save Ireland and the Empire” but nope. Waited until it was way too late.

well yes, but the problem with constitutional reform is what do you do when the country with the most political power doesn't want a new constitution?

A legitimate concern. I think the only way will probably be an is an ultimatum. Have a a referendum on constitutional reform, rather than independence. Then use that to give England a choice. Accept constitutional reform, or lose the U.K.

The problem with the SNP is they are more interested in grandstanding and making a crisis worse. then actually working out a compromise solution to avert a crisis. And why would the English negotiate in good faith with someone not negotiating in good faith?

If the English refuse to budge, then I would say you might want to leave, but if you go with “we want leave anyway, regardless of what you do” that will not work either.

But I agree it is very possible the English might pick refusing constitutional reform over saving the U.K., leaving you little choice but I would say at least try it.

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

Just get some Scottish military in Gibraltar. Declare both independent at the same time.

That was actually one of the questions I had during the independence referendum: where would Scotland obtain military hardware from? The rUK likely wouldn't sell it to them, and I can guarantee they'd remove everything when the MOD bases were withdrawn.

I would have thought it was in the rest of the UK's interest to not have a poorly defended back door. If the Queen was the Commander in Chief of both countrys' militaries, that might help.

[Vassenor]

So it seems that fast tracking the COVID vaccine is also going to include legislation stripping away our right to compensation if it goes wrong.

Not sure why I am surprised this government cares more about protecting corporations from consequence than about keeping its people alive.

[The Blaatschapen]

That was actually one of the questions I had during the independence referendum: where would Scotland obtain military hardware from? The rUK likely wouldn't sell it to them, and I can guarantee they'd remove everything when the MOD bases were withdrawn.

I would have thought it was in the rest of the UK's interest to not have a poorly defended back door. If the Queen was the Commander in Chief of both countrys' militaries, that might help.

NATO would very likely want to keep Scotland inside. That helps too.

[The New California Republic]

I would have thought it was in the rest of the UK's interest to not have a poorly defended back door. If the Queen was the Commander in Chief of both countrys' militaries, that might help.

NATO would very likely want to keep Scotland inside. That helps too.

It depends really, as Sturgeon and the SNP likely wouldn't have any love for NATO; remember the whole "bairns not bombs" crap?

[Agarntrop]

NATO would very likely want to keep Scotland inside. That helps too.

It depends really, as Sturgeon and the SNP likely wouldn't have any love for NATO; remember the whole "bairns not bombs" crap?

The policy was altered in 2012

[The New California Republic]

It depends really, as Sturgeon and the SNP likely wouldn't have any love for NATO; remember the whole "bairns not bombs" crap?

The policy was altered in 2012

Yes I'm aware of that, but the fact that the "bairns not bombs" thing was in SNP materials well after that, as well as the younger SNP folk still opposing NATO, in all likelihood there would be a change in policy in the next several years, and that in the event of independence that opposition would rear up again to take precedence.

[Ifreann]

Op Ed: Boris Johnson has given us a new mantra: Leave home. Forget the NHS. Save Pret

So yeah, looks like clapping didn't help the STONKS enough. Or we're back to putting the wiggly line ahead of human lives because reasons.

It's a bit more complicated than that. It is not a simple matter of "line vs lives". The way in which the government messed up the early stages of the lockdown has given us both more deaths AND a line that has gone further down.

I should also mention that the "wiggly line" going down has impacts on jobs, usually leads to cuts in welfare,

Which is to say, the Tories will take advantage of economic hardship to cut welfare at a time when people need it most. It isn't the case that the line going down automatically cuts welfare, welfare payments are not calculated as a function of the line, it's that there are a powerful cadre of people who are ideologically opposed to welfare in and of itself.

---

Just get some Scottish military in Gibraltar. Declare both independent at the same time.

That was actually one of the questions I had during the independence referendum: where would Scotland obtain military hardware from? The rUK likely wouldn't sell it to them, and I can guarantee they'd remove everything when the MOD bases were withdrawn.

Somehow I don't think that the same people who routinely sign off on sales of arms to Saudi Arabia will balk at the idea of taking a few hundred million of these strange new Scottish pounds for some guns and tanks and maybe a wee warship.

[Hurdergaryp]

Somehow I don't think that the same people who routinely sign off on sales of arms to Saudi Arabia will balk at the idea of taking a few hundred million of these strange new Scottish pounds for some guns and tanks and maybe a wee warship.

It is also entirely possible that a number of nearby countries, out of the goodness of their hearts, will be more than willing to provide the Republic of Scotland with a variety of decently priced military hardware.

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

Somehow I don't think that the same people who routinely sign off on sales of arms to Saudi Arabia will balk at the idea of taking a few hundred million of these strange new Scottish pounds for some guns and tanks and maybe a wee warship.

It is also entirely possible that a number of nearby countries, out of the goodness of their hearts, will be more than willing to provide the Republic of Scotland with a variety of decently priced military hardware.

Just say the French.

[Ifreann]

It is also entirely possible that a number of nearby countries, out of the goodness of their hearts, will be more than willing to provide the Republic of Scotland with a variety of decently priced military hardware.

Just say the French.

The Auld Alliance returns.

[Novus America]

It's a bit more complicated than that. It is not a simple matter of "line vs lives". The way in which the government messed up the early stages of the lockdown has given us both more deaths AND a line that has gone further down.

I should also mention that the "wiggly line" going down has impacts on jobs, usually leads to cuts in welfare,

Which is to say, the Tories will take advantage of economic hardship to cut welfare at a time when people need it most. It isn't the case that the line going down automatically cuts welfare, welfare payments are not calculated as a function of the line, it's that there are a powerful cadre of people who are ideologically opposed to welfare in and of itself.

---

That was actually one of the questions I had during the independence referendum: where would Scotland obtain military hardware from? The rUK likely wouldn't sell it to them, and I can guarantee they'd remove everything when the MOD bases were withdrawn.

Somehow I don't think that the same people who routinely sign off on sales of arms to Saudi Arabia will balk at the idea of taking a few hundred million of these strange new Scottish pounds for some guns and tanks and maybe a wee warship.

Sure, but Saudi Arabia spends some 10% of GDP on defense. Someone will sell you stuff, but it will not be cheap.
Having the rest of the U.K. shoulder the cost means Scotland does not have to spend as much.

[Cerinda]

Flag of the BUF appears at London protests

Tis a curious thing.