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UK Politics Thread XII: The Lockdown

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Should the UK Take a Harder Line Against Russia on the Basis of the ISC Report?

Yes
56
67%
No
14
17%
No *vote amended by GRU*
13
16%
 
Total votes : 83

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Vassenor
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Vassenor » Mon Jul 27, 2020 4:36 am

Hirota wrote:
An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:C L R James wasn't British Hirota.
Neither was Noor Inayat Khan, if that's the criteria. She was born in Russia.

However you are wrong - both CLR James and Seacole (the other one you listed) were born in British colonies at a time when the empire was still a thing.

Not that it really matters to me, but you were the one who raised "British" as a requirement.

If "British" nationality isn't an issue (and it shouldn't really), but rather their service for this country (such as Seacole and Inayat Khan) how about something honouring the ghurkas?


Something commemorating the Eastern European squadrons in exile from the Battle of Britain just to troll the ultranats.
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The Free Joy State
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Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby The Free Joy State » Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:04 am

The Archregimancy wrote:
Vassenor wrote:So the Birmingham Museums Trust is in financial difficulty.

Wonder what the "removing statues is erasing history and must be stopped" crowd has to say about the damage to the sector that the pandemic is doing and what to do about it.


Among your many weird one- or two-sentence posts, this one surely ranks among the weirdest.

These are challenging times across the heritage sector; the BMT is hardly unique in looking closely at current staffing needs, and it puzzles me as why you'd choose a single post from the Chair of the BMT Board of Trustees as representative of a sector-wide issue given the very different challenges faced by within the heritage sector generally and the bizarre tangent you then make over statues.

Secondly, while facing challenges, the BMT is financially secure enough to have recently engaged with recruiting a new Chief Executive (which is not the same as Niels de Vos's post as board chair). Recruitment is now closed, but you can see the LinkedIn advert here. The BMT is the largest independent museum charitable trust in the UK; like many heritage organisations it is currently facing painful staffing decisions (which is the crux of the cited post), but - unlike some smaller museums - it will survive. It's also directly engaged in long-term planning for the post-COVID world, so it's hardly sitting around in the vague hope that a vaccine will turn up next month and save the City Museum and Art Gallery.

Finally, there is absolutely no explicit direct link between Niels de Vos's cited post and 'the "removing statues is erasing history and must be stopped" crowd', nor is it clear what you expect the link to be, or why you expect that 'crowd' to react with a single voice towards the staffing decisions of a museum charitable trust, nor is it clear what you expect them to do about it. Give more money? Protest about staff redundancies at Midlands museums? Write firm letters to the government asking them to give more money to the National Trust? Picket the Tower of London until Historic Royal Palaces agrees not to lay off any Beefeaters?

I mean, I know a thing or two about the heritage sector - likely just a teensy bit more than you, dare I say - and I have no idea what point you're trying to make. Certainly it's not a helpful one that anyone in the sector would recognise as a constructive contribution to debate.

And please don't bother to reply to this post with one of your one-sentence rhetorical questions. I'll ignore it. An actual substantive discussion point, in contrast, I would be delighted to follow up on.

The whole cultural sector is experiencing difficult times right now. As a theatre fan, I'm most concerned about the plight and future of the theatres (especially the smaller ones, and especially the ones where I learned to love the stage).

At least one theatre in England has already closed. Many British creative freelancers have been exempt from government support during the pandemic. Up to 70% of British theatres may be out of money and out of business by the end of this year (with a huge loss of jobs, not to mention a huge loss to our cultural landscape.

I have to admit, I do worry about what will become some of the British culture and heritage sites. I'm not sure how many of the smaller organisations, galleries, theatres, etc. will be able to survive this period. Hopefully, the effects won't be as drastic and is feared.

An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:
The Huskar Social Union wrote:Who do they wana put on a note?


https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/0 ... tes-first/

Mary Seacole, Noor Inayat Khan

Both very worthy people to be put on a coin.

Noor Inayat Khan's heroism well deserves remembering. Mary Seacole's work in the Crimean war also deserves far more prominence than it generally receives.

It would be a shame if these were £5 coins, rather than coins in general circulation though. To deservedly honour people with dedicated coinage before making it so the honour isn't easily accessible seems to me to be rather defeating the object.
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The New California Republic
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Mon Jul 27, 2020 5:35 am

Watson-Watt should have his own coin or banknote. I'd even settle for him on one of the notes issued by the Scottish banks.

Image
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
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The Archregimancy
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Postby The Archregimancy » Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:25 am

The New California Republic wrote:Watson-Watt should have his own coin or banknote. I'd even settle for him on one of the notes issued by the Scottish banks.


Already too late to replace James Watt with Robert Watson-Watt, what.

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The New California Republic
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:35 am

The Archregimancy wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:Watson-Watt should have his own coin or banknote. I'd even settle for him on one of the notes issued by the Scottish banks.


Already too late to replace James Watt with Robert Watson-Watt, what.

The Scottish banks could actually bring back the £1 note, with Watson-Watt on it, to satisfy two things that I want at the same time. But alas, I don't think such a thing is even on the radar.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

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Hirota
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Founded: Jan 22, 2004
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Hirota » Mon Jul 27, 2020 6:56 am

Both very worthy people to be put on a coin.

Noor Inayat Khan's heroism well deserves remembering. Mary Seacole's work in the Crimean war also deserves far more prominence than it generally receives.
The problem I have is that I don't think they'd be being talked about in the same category as some of the nominees for the 50 quid note a few years back. Stephen Hawking, Alexander Fleming , Dorothy Hodgkin, Michael Faraday, Ada Lovelace, Alexander Graham Bell, John Herschel, John Locke, Isambard Kingdom Brunel were all in the running.

Thought of another candidate though that also ticks the diversity box - Srinivasa Ramanujan
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The Archregimancy
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Democratic Socialists

Postby The Archregimancy » Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:30 am

Hirota wrote:
Both very worthy people to be put on a coin.

Noor Inayat Khan's heroism well deserves remembering. Mary Seacole's work in the Crimean war also deserves far more prominence than it generally receives.
The problem I have is that I don't think they'd be being talked about in the same category as some of the nominees for the 50 quid note a few years back. Stephen Hawking, Alexander Fleming , Dorothy Hodgkin, Michael Faraday, Ada Lovelace, Alexander Graham Bell, John Herschel, John Locke, Isambard Kingdom Brunel were all in the running.


Surely not Faraday?

Only because, well, we've been there and done that fairly recently.

Image

That was only withdrawn from circulation in 2001.

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Hirota
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Founded: Jan 22, 2004
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Hirota » Mon Jul 27, 2020 7:36 am

The Archregimancy wrote:
Hirota wrote:The problem I have is that I don't think they'd be being talked about in the same category as some of the nominees for the 50 quid note a few years back. Stephen Hawking, Alexander Fleming , Dorothy Hodgkin, Michael Faraday, Ada Lovelace, Alexander Graham Bell, John Herschel, John Locke, Isambard Kingdom Brunel were all in the running.


Surely not Faraday?

Only because, well, we've been there and done that fairly recently.

Image

That was only withdrawn from circulation in 2001.
<shrugs> He was one of the nominees. Mind you, so was Harry Maguire Riding An Inflatable Unicorn, so worse things are known than using the same person for a second time I suppose.
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Isn't it curious how people will claim they are against tribalism, then pigeonhole themselves into tribes?

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
I use obviously in italics to emphasise the conveying of sarcasm. If I've put excessive obviously's into a post that means I'm being sarcastic

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The Notorious Mad Jack
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Democratic Socialists

Postby The Notorious Mad Jack » Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:33 am

The New California Republic wrote:
The Archregimancy wrote:
Already too late to replace James Watt with Robert Watson-Watt, what.

The Scottish banks could actually bring back the £1 note, with Watson-Watt on it, to satisfy two things that I want at the same time. But alas, I don't think such a thing is even on the radar.

Why would you want the £1 note back?
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Fartsniffage
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Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Fartsniffage » Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:34 am

The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:The Scottish banks could actually bring back the £1 note, with Watson-Watt on it, to satisfy two things that I want at the same time. But alas, I don't think such a thing is even on the radar.

Why would you want the £1 note back?


So one can "make it rain" without breaking the bank.
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The Notorious Mad Jack
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Democratic Socialists

Postby The Notorious Mad Jack » Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:54 am

Fartsniffage wrote:
The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:Why would you want the £1 note back?


So one can "make it rain" without breaking the bank.

Just throw coins at them.
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The New California Republic
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:56 am

The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:The Scottish banks could actually bring back the £1 note, with Watson-Watt on it, to satisfy two things that I want at the same time. But alas, I don't think such a thing is even on the radar.

Why would you want the £1 note back?

Because they were such a novelty, and I liked using them.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

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Ostroeuropa
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Mon Jul 27, 2020 8:59 am

I just saw 5 black birds (IDK!) on my neighbors roof. Two started fighting and one was pecking the shit out of another pinned to the roof while the other 3 went mental with a noise i'd never heard them make before.

Then like, dozens and dozens flew in to land on the roof and circle it and starting cawing at the fight until it stopped. The aggressor flew away.

I'm stunned.

Defund the police and make birds the police?
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It's true that more men are dying from COVID, but that's not exactly a cause for celebration.
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Alvecia
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Alvecia » Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:18 am

The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
So one can "make it rain" without breaking the bank.

Just throw coins at them.

Would that be considered tips or hazard pay?
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Nuroblav
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Nuroblav » Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:24 am

Alvecia wrote:Would that be considered tips or hazard pay?

A bit of both perhaps?
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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:28 am

Is there any real reason we need to have one person on each coin? Is it really that much harder to discover counterfeits if we have a few for each?
The plague has been worse for women.
It's true that more men are dying from COVID, but that's not exactly a cause for celebration.
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Fartsniffage
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Postby Fartsniffage » Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:33 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:Is there any real reason we need to have one person on each coin? Is it really that much harder to discover counterfeits if we have a few for each?


Do you mean notes? Because there are loads of different images on coins.
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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:34 am

Fartsniffage wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:Is there any real reason we need to have one person on each coin? Is it really that much harder to discover counterfeits if we have a few for each?


Do you mean notes? Because there are loads of different images on coins.


Yeah, notes I mean. Surely coins demonstrate proof of concept. It's not like specific and complex anti-forgery measures are available to most, and they don't seem to rely on the person on the note rather than the verification sections.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Mon Jul 27, 2020 9:35 am, edited 2 times in total.
The plague has been worse for women.
It's true that more men are dying from COVID, but that's not exactly a cause for celebration.
https://i.redd.it/oqy5p3p1ayv41.png

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The Archregimancy
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Postby The Archregimancy » Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:01 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:Is there any real reason we need to have one person on each coin? [Ostro meant banknotes; see above] Is it really that much harder to discover counterfeits if we have a few for each?


I imagine it's saving money via economies of scale rather than issues of identifying counterfeits.

Given the number of anti-counterfeiting measures in most modern bank notes, and the sheer volume of bank notes produced, it would likely be expensive to set up individual printing runs for multiple designs of the same denomination, even in an era of digital designing.

Also note that, unlike coins (still exclusively manufactured by the Royal Mint), Bank of England bank notes are not produced by the government, but are printed under contract by the commercial company De La Rue - UK-based, but the world's most important private producer of bank notes for a large number of countries around the world. So commercial issues will be a partial consideration.

The Bank of England does have a short YouTube video about £5 note production:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eRbKkfkAH2s

It's not necessarily very informative, but it does give some idea about both scale and complexity.


Finally, just to be pedantic, there are already at least two people on every note - one of them the Queen - and three people on the current £50 note (the reverse features both Matthew Boulton and James Watt). What you actually mean is 'Is there any real reason we need to have the same design on the reverse of each note of the same denomination?'



Edit:
Rather than double post, a minor piece of vaguely interesting trivia... When the new £50 comes out next year, Alan Turing will become the first person born in the 20th century (1912) to appear on a Bank of England note (other than the Queen, of course). I could be wrong, but offhand I think Churchill (1874) and Elgar (1857) are the only two previous figures to feature who were born as late as the second half of the 19th century.
Last edited by The Archregimancy on Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Vassenor
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Vassenor » Tue Jul 28, 2020 2:21 am

So I'm trying to figure out the logic behind this new push for extra sales tax on online purchases and deliveries.

Especially now, when you'd think that we'd be pushing online shopping as much as possible in order to make social distancing easier, and to make sure people who have to isolate can still get food and such. Or is this another case of the government pushing the economy over human lives?

And this is before we get to the arguments regarding who's likely to be worst hit, with the wealthier end of the spectrum being better able to weather this increase and so not be forced back to the brick-and-mortar shops like people in lower income brackets will be. Although given the attitudes of this government so far, it wouldn't shock me too much if that was the point of the whole exercise.
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Novus America
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:13 am

Vassenor wrote:So I'm trying to figure out the logic behind this new push for extra sales tax on online purchases and deliveries.

Especially now, when you'd think that we'd be pushing online shopping as much as possible in order to make social distancing easier, and to make sure people who have to isolate can still get food and such. Or is this another case of the government pushing the economy over human lives?

And this is before we get to the arguments regarding who's likely to be worst hit, with the wealthier end of the spectrum being better able to weather this increase and so not be forced back to the brick-and-mortar shops like people in lower income brackets will be. Although given the attitudes of this government so far, it wouldn't shock me too much if that was the point of the whole exercise.


I get why one might criticize this as a bad way to go about things but the “economy over lives” is a dumb meme that seems to contradict your point here. If you goal is to improve the poor’s access to goods, how is disregarding the economy a good thing?

If the economy is bad, the poor is hurt the worse too.
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Vassenor
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Founded: Nov 11, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Vassenor » Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:16 am

Novus America wrote:
Vassenor wrote:So I'm trying to figure out the logic behind this new push for extra sales tax on online purchases and deliveries.

Especially now, when you'd think that we'd be pushing online shopping as much as possible in order to make social distancing easier, and to make sure people who have to isolate can still get food and such. Or is this another case of the government pushing the economy over human lives?

And this is before we get to the arguments regarding who's likely to be worst hit, with the wealthier end of the spectrum being better able to weather this increase and so not be forced back to the brick-and-mortar shops like people in lower income brackets will be. Although given the attitudes of this government so far, it wouldn't shock me too much if that was the point of the whole exercise.


I get why one might criticize this as a bad way to go about things but the “economy over lives” is a dumb meme that seems to contradict your point here. If you goal is to improve the poor’s access to goods, how is disregarding the economy a good thing?

If the economy is bad, the poor is hurt the worse too.


You do understand the point of the lockdown, right?
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Novus America
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Tue Jul 28, 2020 5:36 am

Vassenor wrote:
Novus America wrote:
I get why one might criticize this as a bad way to go about things but the “economy over lives” is a dumb meme that seems to contradict your point here. If you goal is to improve the poor’s access to goods, how is disregarding the economy a good thing?

If the economy is bad, the poor is hurt the worse too.


You do understand the point of the lockdown, right?


That is not the point, the point is when the economy goes badly, people suffer. Having a good economy is important for improving lives.

Like I said I get you can argue this is not the best way to do things (and I do not see how it actually helps the economy) but the economy over lives meme is still a stupid meme.

Although a lockdown in the UK at this point is futile anyways, it is not working. You cannot stop it now. It is way too late. It only works if it is still containable. It is not.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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CoraSpia
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Capitalizt

Postby CoraSpia » Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:27 am

So I just booked my first table taking advantage of eat out to help out.
bem brasil in Manchester for less than a crappy all you can eat Chinese. Yess please.
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Fartsniffage
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Founded: Dec 19, 2005
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Fartsniffage » Tue Jul 28, 2020 10:45 am

I found out today that the police response time to my house using lights and siren is 3 minutes 43 seconds.

Apparently reporting someone passed out in a car in front of your house with an open can of beer gets the emergency treatment.
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