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UK Politics Thread XII: The Lockdown

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Should the UK Take a Harder Line Against Russia on the Basis of the ISC Report?

Yes
56
67%
No
14
17%
No *vote amended by GRU*
13
16%
 
Total votes : 83

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The Islands of Versilia
Minister
 
Posts: 2821
Founded: Feb 21, 2016
Democratic Socialists

Postby The Islands of Versilia » Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:09 am

The Blaatschapen wrote:
The Islands of Versilia wrote:
Democracy.
The rule of law.
Personal freedom.
Mutual respect.
Tolerance of different peoples and beliefs.
Active participation.

All of these she rejected by joining ISIL.


Democracy? Really? FPTP isn't very democratic. Also, House of Lords.
Personal freedom, eh, can I smoke a joint there?
Tolerance of different peoples and beliefs? Please, until recently the monarch couldn't be or marry a catholic. (or something of that sort)

Active participation? In what? What does this even mean?

I'll give you the other two.


Don’t ask me, blame the government and national curriculum that names them as British values.

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Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54477
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:11 am

When Gorm pointed it out I did immediately think of the Jemima blackface stuff. But It was unrelated to that. My brain just anglicanized Shamima to the closest equivalent it could think of without me noticing or thinking about it.
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The Notorious Mad Jack
Diplomat
 
Posts: 535
Founded: Nov 05, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby The Notorious Mad Jack » Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:12 am

The Blaatschapen wrote:
Greed and Death wrote:But she was a child when she went to join them. Children do stupid shit, Is there really a need to make her stateless for life because she was a stupid 15 year old.


I never joined a terrorist organisation when I was 15.

Most 15 year olds don't. :meh:

Were you groomed and radicalised at age 15?
Totally not MadJack, though I hear he's incredibly smart and handsome.

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The Blaatschapen
Retired Moderator
 
Posts: 55837
Founded: Antiquity
Anarchy

Postby The Blaatschapen » Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:14 am

The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:
The Blaatschapen wrote:
I never joined a terrorist organisation when I was 15.

Most 15 year olds don't. :meh:

Were you groomed and radicalised at age 15?


Nah, I only joined NationStates when I was 18.
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The Notorious Mad Jack
Diplomat
 
Posts: 535
Founded: Nov 05, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby The Notorious Mad Jack » Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:22 am

The Blaatschapen wrote:
The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:Were you groomed and radicalised at age 15?


Nah, I only joined NationStates when I was 18.

Amazing reply.

Anyway given that she's in a camp in an area controlled by the Syrian Democratic Forces, a Kurdish-led group that controls the Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria, it should be relatively simple to retrieve Shamima Begum from the area and bring her to the UK so that she gets a fair hearing - and then a fair trial, along with deprogramming. The government's position that the hearing on her citizenship should go ahead despite admitting it wouldn't be a fair trial was bizarre.
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Greed and Death
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 52376
Founded: Mar 20, 2008
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Greed and Death » Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:29 am

The Blaatschapen wrote:
The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:Were you groomed and radicalised at age 15?


Nah, I only joined NationStates when I was 18.


Maybe we just shouldn't let kids use the computer then.
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Hirota
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6372
Founded: Jan 22, 2004
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Hirota » Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:40 am

Fartsniffage wrote:
Gormwood wrote:Pointing out the most common and famous reference to "Jemima" is now a gotcha. You really picked a perfect screen name.


We're not Americans. My first thought was of Jemima Puddle Duck.
I don't think Beatrix Potter ever expected her character to join radical Islam. Mind you, Jemima did wear a shawl...or maybe it was a Hijab after all?! :lol:
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Gormwood
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Founded: Mar 25, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Gormwood » Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:45 am

An international forum where American issues are openly discussed- especially racial matters as of recent times, and especially by Ostro in regards to gender. But everyone suddenly wants to feign provinciality to pile on with the slams and laughs. Fine.
Last edited by Gormwood on Thu Jul 16, 2020 7:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Hirota
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6372
Founded: Jan 22, 2004
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Hirota » Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:02 am

I can't speak for anyone else, but I personally find slams and laughs via classical literary works always seem far more rewarding than the cheap digs. You know the sort, the ones who look at names and use them as cheap zingers for the purposes of baiting. Awful folks.

I remember one time when my good friend Tarquin pulled off a right zinger by using the flopsy bunnies to refer to a bunch of drunken reprobates we saw hanging outside the job center. It was most delightful wot wot.


Anyhoo, back to less silly matters.

Statement has come out regarding Russian interference!

This wouldn't have been covered in the report that we are waiting for any day now, but suggests maybe there is a pattern of sustained behaviour by Russia?
Last edited by Hirota on Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:16 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Economic Left/Right: -3.25, Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -5.03
Isn't it curious how people will claim they are against tribalism, then pigeonhole themselves into tribes?

It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.
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Greed and Death
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 52376
Founded: Mar 20, 2008
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Greed and Death » Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:06 am

The Islands of Versilia wrote:
The Blaatschapen wrote:
Democracy? Really? FPTP isn't very democratic. Also, House of Lords.
Personal freedom, eh, can I smoke a joint there?
Tolerance of different peoples and beliefs? Please, until recently the monarch couldn't be or marry a catholic. (or something of that sort)

Active participation? In what? What does this even mean?

I'll give you the other two.


Don’t ask me, blame the government and national curriculum that names them as British values.


And this is why we in America avoid a national curriculum just thinly veiled nationalism disguised as values that no one knows what the heck the government means. But the values must be obeyed or you are othered.
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CoraSpia
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9042
Founded: Mar 01, 2014
Capitalizt

Postby CoraSpia » Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:51 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
CoraSpia wrote:Then 'the community' can deal with it. It is never acceptable to strip someone of citizenship and leave them to rot because you can't find something to charge them with, nor should we go back to the days of state-sanctioned murder.


Ultimately it's a matter of making enemies having consequences. While we can hand-wring about how it's wrong, the fact is, if everyone in your community wants you dead but you didn't break the law, then "Nobody saw who shot the guy". This is a basic fact about human society that the law is unable to address because it is not the only tool for dealing with social deviancy. There is always the unspoken assumption that if you try to game the system and use it in bad faith, people will respond in kind.

This is also the function of revolutions. Howling that the law says you can't cut off the kings head is largely irrelevant. They made enemies, it has consequences.

I happen to think the legal arguments may well be on her side. But that doesn't mean people can't try and ignore that. The issue is, you need unbiased people to enforce the law. But when the scope and magnitude of your fuck up is such that *everybody is consciously biased against you*, you're kind of fucked, and that's fine with me. "Don't piss off literally everyone and then cry about the law protecting you from their vengeance" is a rule that our ruling classes have internalized (though seem to be forgetting), it applies here too.

If you go around and rape every judge in the UK, good luck getting a fair trial. Similarly, Jemima declared war on this nation and joined a terrorist unit. So long as people can try and keep her out, they will. They might fail, but the trying is going to happen nonetheless, and arguments about "The law" will fall on deaf ears.

Her rights may have been violated. But I don't think anyone really cares.

They really should care. We don't want to normalise this sort of governmental action, and the more we let it go the closer we are to doing just that.
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Gormwood
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14733
Founded: Mar 25, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Gormwood » Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:53 am

CoraSpia wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
Ultimately it's a matter of making enemies having consequences. While we can hand-wring about how it's wrong, the fact is, if everyone in your community wants you dead but you didn't break the law, then "Nobody saw who shot the guy". This is a basic fact about human society that the law is unable to address because it is not the only tool for dealing with social deviancy. There is always the unspoken assumption that if you try to game the system and use it in bad faith, people will respond in kind.

This is also the function of revolutions. Howling that the law says you can't cut off the kings head is largely irrelevant. They made enemies, it has consequences.

I happen to think the legal arguments may well be on her side. But that doesn't mean people can't try and ignore that. The issue is, you need unbiased people to enforce the law. But when the scope and magnitude of your fuck up is such that *everybody is consciously biased against you*, you're kind of fucked, and that's fine with me. "Don't piss off literally everyone and then cry about the law protecting you from their vengeance" is a rule that our ruling classes have internalized (though seem to be forgetting), it applies here too.

If you go around and rape every judge in the UK, good luck getting a fair trial. Similarly, Jemima declared war on this nation and joined a terrorist unit. So long as people can try and keep her out, they will. They might fail, but the trying is going to happen nonetheless, and arguments about "The law" will fall on deaf ears.

Her rights may have been violated. But I don't think anyone really cares.

They really should care. We don't want to normalise this sort of governmental action, and the more we let it go the closer we are to doing just that.

What could possibly go wrong with nationstates dumping their most troublesome citizens in other countries and going "Not Our Problem"?
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CoraSpia
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 9042
Founded: Mar 01, 2014
Capitalizt

Postby CoraSpia » Thu Jul 16, 2020 8:53 am

The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:
The Blaatschapen wrote:
Nah, I only joined NationStates when I was 18.

Amazing reply.

Anyway given that she's in a camp in an area controlled by the Syrian Democratic Forces, a Kurdish-led group that controls the Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria, it should be relatively simple to retrieve Shamima Begum from the area and bring her to the UK so that she gets a fair hearing - and then a fair trial, along with deprogramming. The government's position that the hearing on her citizenship should go ahead despite admitting it wouldn't be a fair trial was bizarre.

Even though they can't prevent her from coming back the government have stated that they won't do anything to try and get her out of there. They're pulling out all the possible cards to let this woman rot and it's truly sick.
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The Blaatschapen
Retired Moderator
 
Posts: 55837
Founded: Antiquity
Anarchy

Postby The Blaatschapen » Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:22 am

Gormwood wrote:
CoraSpia wrote:They really should care. We don't want to normalise this sort of governmental action, and the more we let it go the closer we are to doing just that.

What could possibly go wrong with nationstates dumping their most troublesome citizens in other countries and going "Not Our Problem"?


Australia seems pretty fine to me :unsure:
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Hrythingland
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 467
Founded: Dec 17, 2018
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Hrythingland » Thu Jul 16, 2020 9:42 am

CoraSpia wrote:
The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:Amazing reply.

Anyway given that she's in a camp in an area controlled by the Syrian Democratic Forces, a Kurdish-led group that controls the Autonomous Administration of North and East Syria, it should be relatively simple to retrieve Shamima Begum from the area and bring her to the UK so that she gets a fair hearing - and then a fair trial, along with deprogramming. The government's position that the hearing on her citizenship should go ahead despite admitting it wouldn't be a fair trial was bizarre.

Even though they can't prevent her from coming back the government have stated that they won't do anything to try and get her out of there. They're pulling out all the possible cards to let this woman rot and it's truly sick.

Its sick that she went away to fight for a group that despises this country and only wanted to come back and beg for mercy when she was carrying a child. She's about as British as a bloody manatee. She can go back to Bangladesh or wherever it is her family is originally from.
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Dumb Ideologies
Post Czar
 
Posts: 43432
Founded: Sep 30, 2007
Mother Knows Best State

Postby Dumb Ideologies » Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:15 am

Hrythingland wrote:
CoraSpia wrote:Even though they can't prevent her from coming back the government have stated that they won't do anything to try and get her out of there. They're pulling out all the possible cards to let this woman rot and it's truly sick.

Its sick that she went away to fight for a group that despises this country and only wanted to come back and beg for mercy when she was carrying a child. She's about as British as a bloody manatee. She can go back to Bangladesh or wherever it is her family is originally from.


Actively aiding the ISIS regime should put one beyond the realm of rehabilitation attempts. She does not deserve another chance. The trouble is that the lack of the death penalty means we will not be able to eliminate her, and I'm sure lobbying groups will pressure for her to be given that undeserved second chance.

But that is our problem I think. She was British until she decided not to be, and it's wrong to leave unwanted litter behind on someone else's territory even if we don't have proper disposal facilities, so to speak.
Last edited by Dumb Ideologies on Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:17 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Fartsniffage
Post Czar
 
Posts: 38006
Founded: Dec 19, 2005
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Fartsniffage » Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:18 am

Dumb Ideologies wrote:
Hrythingland wrote:Its sick that she went away to fight for a group that despises this country and only wanted to come back and beg for mercy when she was carrying a child. She's about as British as a bloody manatee. She can go back to Bangladesh or wherever it is her family is originally from.


Actively aiding the ISIS regime should put one beyond the realm of rehabilitation attempts. She does not deserve another chance. The trouble is that the lack of the death penalty means we will not be able to eliminate her, and I'm sure lobbying groups will pressure for her to be given that undeserved second chance.

But that is our problem I think, it's wrong to leave unwanted litter behind on someone else's territory even if we don't have proper disposal facilities, so to speak.


As I recall, Syria has some pretty strict policies around litter.
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Chan Island
Senator
 
Posts: 4770
Founded: Nov 26, 2015
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Chan Island » Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:28 am

Hirota wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
We're not Americans. My first thought was of Jemima Puddle Duck.
I don't think Beatrix Potter ever expected her character to join radical Islam. Mind you, Jemima did wear a shawl...or maybe it was a Hijab after all?! :lol:


They certainly would read different if Mr Mcgregor was shouting Allahu Akbar when he catches the rabbit.

Gormwood wrote:
CoraSpia wrote:They really should care. We don't want to normalise this sort of governmental action, and the more we let it go the closer we are to doing just that.

What could possibly go wrong with nationstates dumping their most troublesome citizens in other countries and going "Not Our Problem"?


On the logic of "they could potentially apply for citizenship somewhere else even though they don't actually have that citizenship and now never will" to boot.

Surely, absolutely, positively, nothing at all could go wrong with that precedent.
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Ifreann
Post Overlord
 
Posts: 141493
Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Ifreann » Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:35 am

Chan Island wrote:
Hirota wrote:I don't think Beatrix Potter ever expected her character to join radical Islam. Mind you, Jemima did wear a shawl...or maybe it was a Hijab after all?! :lol:


They certainly would read different if Mr Mcgregor was shouting Allahu Akbar when he catches the rabbit.

Gormwood wrote:What could possibly go wrong with nationstates dumping their most troublesome citizens in other countries and going "Not Our Problem"?


On the logic of "they could potentially apply for citizenship somewhere else even though they don't actually have that citizenship and now never will" to boot.

Surely, absolutely, positively, nothing at all could go wrong with that precedent.

I wonder if perfidious Albion is a signatory to the treaties on reducing statelessness.
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Gormwood
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14733
Founded: Mar 25, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Gormwood » Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:39 am

Ifreann wrote:
Chan Island wrote:
They certainly would read different if Mr Mcgregor was shouting Allahu Akbar when he catches the rabbit.



On the logic of "they could potentially apply for citizenship somewhere else even though they don't actually have that citizenship and now never will" to boot.

Surely, absolutely, positively, nothing at all could go wrong with that precedent.

I wonder if perfidious Albion is a signatory to the treaties on reducing statelessness.

Why Yes It Is. Cue shoutings for the UK to leave the UN or ignore the convention.
Bloodthirsty savages who call for violence against the Right while simultaneously being unarmed defenseless sissies who will get slaughtered by the gun-toting Right in a civil war.
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Fartsniffage
Post Czar
 
Posts: 38006
Founded: Dec 19, 2005
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Fartsniffage » Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:43 am

Gormwood wrote:
Ifreann wrote:I wonder if perfidious Albion is a signatory to the treaties on reducing statelessness.

Why Yes It Is. Cue shoutings for the UK to leave the UN or ignore the convention.


Article 8
Contracting States shall not deprive people of their nationality so as to render them stateless. (Exceptions: where otherwise provided in the Convention; where nationality has been acquired by misrepresentation or fraud; disloyalty to the Contracting State).
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Agarntrop
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8342
Founded: May 14, 2018
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Agarntrop » Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:44 am

Fartsniffage wrote:
Gormwood wrote:Why Yes It Is. Cue shoutings for the UK to leave the UN or ignore the convention.


Article 8
Contracting States shall not deprive people of their nationality so as to render them stateless. (Exceptions: where otherwise provided in the Convention; where nationality has been acquired by misrepresentation or fraud; disloyalty to the Contracting State).

:roll:
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Fartsniffage
Post Czar
 
Posts: 38006
Founded: Dec 19, 2005
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Fartsniffage » Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:45 am

Agarntrop wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:

:roll:


Why did you think I quoted that Article and not any of the others?
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Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 13816
Founded: Jun 28, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:46 am

Agarntrop wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:

:roll:

You know... convict her in a court of law and deprive the passport that way as part of a punishment package. Doing it because lol why not is shit PRC pulls.
Last edited by Austria-Bohemia-Hungary on Thu Jul 16, 2020 10:47 am, edited 1 time in total.

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