UK Politics Thread XII: The Lockdown

[Gormwood]

This ignores her actions in the war. She was a member of the morality police, killed people, and stitched people into suicide vests. Plenty of her actions violated norms of international war, especially those covering lawful combat.

And if that's true it'll come out in the wash. However, successful prosecutions against non-state actors for war crimes are incredibly rare, and I don't think I've seen one in which an element of coercion was present. The prosecution of terrorists under international war crimes legislation isn't even universally accepted international law.

Curious how no confirmation or even a mention of the allegations against her were made in BBC articles I've seen so far.

[Gormwood]

She is responsible for the death of her baby. She decided to go join a war crimes unit in a warzone.

We should be sure to impress upon Bangladesh and Syria our concerns about their systemic issues with their court systems, and we can do that without any particular concern for an individual case.

Because that'll guarantee her a fair trial I'm sure.

Besides, this has literally nothing to do with Bangladesh. Why should Bangladesh even be involved?

Somebody Else's Problem theory in action.

[CoraSpia]

And if that's true it'll come out in the wash. However, successful prosecutions against non-state actors for war crimes are incredibly rare, and I don't think I've seen one in which an element of coercion was present. The prosecution of terrorists under international war crimes legislation isn't even universally accepted international law.

Curious how no confirmation or even a mention of the allegations against her were made in BBC articles I've seen so far.

Perhaps they recognise that confirming unproven alegations before a trial is a shitty thing to do.

[Gormwood]

Curious how no confirmation or even a mention of the allegations against her were made in BBC articles I've seen so far.

Perhaps they recognise that confirming unproven alegations before a trial is a shitty thing to do.

Or they're white-knighting for her. /s

[Ostroeuropa]

Rehabilitation lol.

The community will never want her in it because her crimes cannot ever be appropriately punished by years in a cushy jail with access to educational opportunities and ways to build herself a fulfilling life with a new identity.

Black caps are an essential fashion accessory for the modern judge and we should introduce them back to the wardrobe.

Then 'the community' can deal with it. It is never acceptable to strip someone of citizenship and leave them to rot because you can't find something to charge them with, nor should we go back to the days of state-sanctioned murder.

Ultimately it's a matter of making enemies having consequences. While we can hand-wring about how it's wrong, the fact is, if everyone in your community wants you dead but you didn't break the law, then "Nobody saw who shot the guy". This is a basic fact about human society that the law is unable to address because it is not the only tool for dealing with social deviancy. There is always the unspoken assumption that if you try to game the system and use it in bad faith, people will respond in kind.

This is also the function of revolutions. Howling that the law says you can't cut off the kings head is largely irrelevant. They made enemies, it has consequences.

I happen to think the legal arguments may well be on her side. But that doesn't mean people can't try and ignore that. The issue is, you need unbiased people to enforce the law. But when the scope and magnitude of your fuck up is such that *everybody is consciously biased against you*, you're kind of fucked, and that's fine with me. "Don't piss off literally everyone and then cry about the law protecting you from their vengeance" is a rule that our ruling classes have internalized (though seem to be forgetting), it applies here too.

If you go around and rape every judge in the UK, good luck getting a fair trial. Similarly, Jemima declared war on this nation and joined a terrorist unit. So long as people can try and keep her out, they will. They might fail, but the trying is going to happen nonetheless, and arguments about "The law" will fall on deaf ears.

Her rights may have been violated. But I don't think anyone really cares.

[Salandriagado]

So how many British terrorists who committed more severe terror crimes than run off to join a terrorist failstate- possibly on UK soil- were deported to a foreign country afterwards?

She hasn't been deported. She was banned from returning. She wanted to go to Syria, she can stay there. What the Syrians do with her is no concern of ours.

It's also a little silly to pretend banning people from entering the country when they are a risk is unheard of, given current circumstances. She is, in effect, a carrier of a dangerous meme. Not so much different to being a virus carrier.

I also note that countries cooperated with eachother to make sure eachothers citizens didn't return home during the lockdowns. Brits were kept in France and so on, France wouldn't let them leave, and we wouldn't let them arrive.

Syria should, by all rights, ban her from using their transport infrastructure to leave since she poses a risk to the country she would be going to, and they should deal with her themselves.

I'm somewhat confused as to why we suddenly want to let people who've broken our laws get off because they happen to have fled to a different country, when they're willing to come back and stand trial.

[Ostroeuropa]

She is responsible for the death of her baby. She decided to go join a war crimes unit in a warzone.

We should be sure to impress upon Bangladesh and Syria our concerns about their systemic issues with their court systems, and we can do that without any particular concern for an individual case.

Because that'll guarantee her a fair trial I'm sure.

Besides, this has literally nothing to do with Bangladesh. Why should Bangladesh even be involved?

Why should we care if she, specifically her, gets a fair trial. Should we just throw open our doors to any and all criminals from countries with bad judiciaries? Even ones who confess?

[Gormwood]

She hasn't been deported. She was banned from returning. She wanted to go to Syria, she can stay there. What the Syrians do with her is no concern of ours.

It's also a little silly to pretend banning people from entering the country when they are a risk is unheard of, given current circumstances. She is, in effect, a carrier of a dangerous meme. Not so much different to being a virus carrier.

I also note that countries cooperated with eachother to make sure eachothers citizens didn't return home during the lockdowns. Brits were kept in France and so on, France wouldn't let them leave, and we wouldn't let them arrive.

Syria should, by all rights, ban her from using their transport infrastructure to leave since she poses a risk to the country she would be going to, and they should deal with her themselves.

I'm somewhat confused as to why we suddenly want to let people who've broken our laws get off because they happen to have fled to a different country, when they're willing to come back and stand trial.

Virtue Signal Hand Washing.

[Gormwood]

Then 'the community' can deal with it. It is never acceptable to strip someone of citizenship and leave them to rot because you can't find something to charge them with, nor should we go back to the days of state-sanctioned murder.

Ultimately it's a matter of making enemies having consequences. While we can hand-wring about how it's wrong, the fact is, if everyone in your community wants you dead but you didn't break the law, then "Nobody saw who shot the guy". This is a basic fact about human society that the law is unable to address because it is not the only tool for dealing with social deviancy. There is always the unspoken assumption that if you try to game the system and use it in bad faith, people will respond in kind.

This is also the function of revolutions. Howling that the law says you can't cut off the kings head is largely irrelevant. They made enemies, it has consequences.

I happen to think the legal arguments may well be on her side. But that doesn't mean people can't try and ignore that. The issue is, you need unbiased people to enforce the law. But when the scope and magnitude of your fuck up is such that *everybody is consciously biased against you*, you're kind of fucked, and that's fine with me.

If you go around and rape every judge in the UK, good luck getting a fair trial. Similarly, Jemima declared war on this nation and joined a terrorist unit. So long as people can try and keep her out, they will. They might fail, but the trying is going to happen nonetheless, and arguments about "The law" will fall on deaf ears.

Her rights may have been violated. But I don't think anyone really cares.

"Jemima". Oh hey, the racism comes out in the open.

[Ostroeuropa]

Ultimately it's a matter of making enemies having consequences. While we can hand-wring about how it's wrong, the fact is, if everyone in your community wants you dead but you didn't break the law, then "Nobody saw who shot the guy". This is a basic fact about human society that the law is unable to address because it is not the only tool for dealing with social deviancy. There is always the unspoken assumption that if you try to game the system and use it in bad faith, people will respond in kind.

This is also the function of revolutions. Howling that the law says you can't cut off the kings head is largely irrelevant. They made enemies, it has consequences.

I happen to think the legal arguments may well be on her side. But that doesn't mean people can't try and ignore that. The issue is, you need unbiased people to enforce the law. But when the scope and magnitude of your fuck up is such that *everybody is consciously biased against you*, you're kind of fucked, and that's fine with me.

If you go around and rape every judge in the UK, good luck getting a fair trial. Similarly, Jemima declared war on this nation and joined a terrorist unit. So long as people can try and keep her out, they will. They might fail, but the trying is going to happen nonetheless, and arguments about "The law" will fall on deaf ears.

Her rights may have been violated. But I don't think anyone really cares.

"Jemima". Oh hey, the racism comes out in the open.

I made a mistake. It's Shamima. That's hardly racism except in the most banal sense.

[Gormwood]

"Jemima". Oh hey, the racism comes out in the open.

I made a mistake. It's Shamima. That's hardly racism except in the most banal sense.

[The Islands of Versilia]

She joined ISIL. By doing so, she rejected British values and made herself a traitor to the United Kingdom and its people. Even if she hasn’t killed anyone personally, she’s a criminal by association and her joining ISIL means she’s condoned all its atrocities.

What are 'british values?'

Democracy.
The rule of law.
Personal freedom.
Mutual respect.
Tolerance of different peoples and beliefs.
Active participation.

All of these she rejected by joining ISIL.

[Dumb Ideologies]

I made a mistake. It's Shamima. That's hardly racism except in the most banal sense.

My man this is a gotcha so weak the homeopathy crowd will be breaking your door down to parade you through the streets for developing a panacea.

[Gormwood]

What are 'british values?'

Democracy.
The rule of law.
Personal freedom.
Mutual respect.
Tolerance of different peoples and beliefs.
Active participation.

All of these she rejected by joining ISIL.

And terrorists who ran over people with vehicles got more lenient treatment than her.

[Gormwood]

My man this is a gotcha so weak the homeopathy crowd will be breaking your door down to parade you through the streets for developing a panacea.

Pointing out the most common and famous reference to "Jemima" is now a gotcha. You really picked a perfect screen name.

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

The way I see it governments being able to strip any of their own people of their citizenship is an extremely dangerous tool in the wrong hands. The only way to keep it out of the wrong hands is not let any government do it.

[Ifreann]

My man this is a gotcha so weak the homeopathy crowd will be breaking your door down to parade you through the streets for developing a panacea.

Pointing out the most common and famous reference to "Jemima" is now a gotcha. You really picked a perfect screen name.

I don't think you realise that that particular brand of whatever the fuck it is is not well known outside the US.

[The Islands of Versilia]

Democracy.
The rule of law.
Personal freedom.
Mutual respect.
Tolerance of different peoples and beliefs.
Active participation.

All of these she rejected by joining ISIL.

And terrorists who ran over people with vehicles got more lenient treatment than her.

And they shouldn’t.

[Fartsniffage]

My man this is a gotcha so weak the homeopathy crowd will be breaking your door down to parade you through the streets for developing a panacea.

Pointing out the most common and famous reference to "Jemima" is now a gotcha. You really picked a perfect screen name.

We're not Americans. My first thought was of Jemima Puddle Duck.

[The Blaatschapen]

What are 'british values?'

Democracy.
The rule of law.
Personal freedom.
Mutual respect.
Tolerance of different peoples and beliefs.
Active participation.

All of these she rejected by joining ISIL.

Democracy? Really? FPTP isn't very democratic. Also, House of Lords.
Personal freedom, eh, can I smoke a joint there?
Tolerance of different peoples and beliefs? Please, until recently the monarch couldn't be or marry a catholic. (or something of that sort)

Active participation? In what? What does this even mean?

I'll give you the other two.

[Ifreann]

Democracy.
The rule of law.
Personal freedom.
Mutual respect.
Tolerance of different peoples and beliefs.
Active participation.

All of these she rejected by joining ISIL.

Democracy? Really? FPTP isn't very democratic. Also, House of Lords.
Personal freedom, eh, can I smoke a joint there?
Tolerance of different peoples and beliefs? Please, until recently the monarch couldn't be a catholic.

Active participation? In what? What does this even mean?

I'll give you the other two.

I'd question whether the rule of law is a British value if so many British people want so badly to throw it out rather than allow Shamima Begum back into the country.

[Dumb Ideologies]

My man this is a gotcha so weak the homeopathy crowd will be breaking your door down to parade you through the streets for developing a panacea.

Pointing out the most common and famous reference to "Jemima" is now a gotcha. You really picked a perfect screen name.

Thank you yes it's proven very apt for a career in pointing out the dimness of low effort baiters. Did you consider ending your nation not with "wood" but with "less"?

[Vassenor]

Democracy.
The rule of law.
Personal freedom.
Mutual respect.
Tolerance of different peoples and beliefs.
Active participation.

All of these she rejected by joining ISIL.

Democracy? Really? FPTP isn't very democratic. Also, House of Lords.
Personal freedom, eh, can I smoke a joint there?
Tolerance of different peoples and beliefs? Please, until recently the monarch couldn't be or marry a catholic. (or something of that sort)

Active participation? In what? What does this even mean?

I'll give you the other two.

Still can't. The "can't be a Catholic or a Bastard" rule is still in force although they can marry them.

[The Islands of Versilia]

Democracy.
The rule of law.
Personal freedom.
Mutual respect.
Tolerance of different peoples and beliefs.
Active participation.

All of these she rejected by joining ISIL.

Democracy? Really? FPTP isn't very democratic. Also, House of Lords.
Personal freedom, eh, can I smoke a joint there?
Tolerance of different peoples and beliefs? Please, until recently the monarch couldn't be or marry a catholic. (or something of that sort)

Active participation? In what? What does this even mean?

I'll give you the other two.

Don’t ask me, blame the government and national curriculum that names them as British values.

[Ostroeuropa]

When Gorm pointed it out I did immediately think of the Jemima blackface stuff. But It was unrelated to that. My brain just anglicanized Shamima to the closest equivalent it could think of without me noticing or thinking about it.