UK Politics Thread XII: The Lockdown

[Celritannia]

The fact you have no evidence.

My evidence is the fact we are at least a generation into this great experiment you're defending and its supposed benefits have yet to materialise - and indeed there is no sign that they will at any point. The 2017 Great British Class Survey, coincidentally taken 25 years after the Further and Higher Education Act 1992 (one of the most significant legislative pieces of the massification of the academy) has shown that the three 'working class' class sectors they identify, which make up 48% of the population, still as a rule have low economic, cultural, and social capital (with the exception of the high cultural capital and mid social capital of the 'emergent service sector,' which contains those graduates whose degree has not left them upwardly socially mobile.)

How can this be when more working-class people than ever have been going to university? Because going to university generally either pushes one into that category just described, or else, if one is successful in landing a better job, into the PMC 'elite' (my terminology here, not the survey's.) The 'elite' that the survey identifies, representing the top 6% of the population, has an over-representation of graduates of elite universities.

My point is that, whatever one's class origins, going to university and then succeeding in life almost without fail pushes one up the class scale and therefore naturally realigns one's class interests. Increasing the numbers of working-class students attending university has had no appreciable positive influence on the working class collectively; neither has it helped society as a whole. Therefore we cannot defend the current university regime, as you have and as we are all expected to, on the basis that it 'helps the working class.' The elite uses this canard as a shield to defend its institutions from any criticism from without the elite. Our understanding of the university system, and consequently our suggestions for change within it, must therefore focus on things other than its capacity for increasing social mobility (either false or ultimately unhelpful to the working class as a whole) like the quality of education.

And again, more people who go to university tend to vote for Labour and other progressive policies.
So no.
You cannot simply brand every working class person who goes to university as an elitist, this is completely unfounded and untrue.

Quite frankly, the Tories are increasing tuition fees anyway, so hardly them trying to protect the university institutions.
There are also the types of universities and what people study.
It's not as simple as "people who go to university will one day be elites," That's just laughable.

[Thanatttynia]

And again, more people who go to university tend to vote for Labour and other progressive policies.
So no.

Which proves what? What does progressivism have to do with the working class?

You cannot simply brand every working class person who goes to university as an elitist, this is completely unfounded and untrue.

Not even remotely what I was saying

It's not as simple as "people who go to university will one day be elites," That's just laughable.

My point there was actually that we cannot defend the university system on the basis of it helping the working class, so we have to either defend or support it on different bases.

[The Nihilistic view]

The end is nigh! I've become an SJW, reported a comment on BBC sport this morning for calling Mason Greenwood a Gambonese Jamie Vardy as a potentially racist statement. Even more shocking the BBC agreed with me!

I am not worthy

[Celritannia]

And again, more people who go to university tend to vote for Labour and other progressive policies.
So no.

Which proves what? What does progressivism have to do with the working class?

You cannot simply brand every working class person who goes to university as an elitist, this is completely unfounded and untrue.

Not even remotely what I was saying

It's not as simple as "people who go to university will one day be elites," That's just laughable.

My point there was actually that we cannot defend the university system on the basis of it helping the working class, so we have to either defend or support it on different bases.

By ensuring progressive and social policies are passed to help the working class.

Yes, it is what you were saying.

But it does help the working class. Better understanding of the problems and getting an education in certain fields does help them. Especially if working class people also want to go to university.

I am working class and I went to university, as many other working class people have.

[Thanatttynia]

By ensuring progressive and social policies are passed to help the working class.

Yes, it is what you were saying.

But it does help the working class. Better understanding of the problems and getting an education in certain fields does help them. Especially if working class people also want to go to university.

I am working class and I went to university, as many other working class people have.

I fear you may have misinterpreted my arguments against the modern university's role in elite over-production as a personal attack. I should have been clearer in my argument. I'm not saying you are an elitist for going to university (fwiw I too am a working-class person about to go to university.)

I don't think this conversation is going anywhere - maybe because we are individualising it too much when we should be recognising society as more than just a collection of individuals doing their own thing.

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

So masks in shops are apparently going to be compulsory in England. The way I'm seeing it, this happened because Michael Gove contradicted Boris Johnson, so Johnson felt the need to show he had more power.

[New Bremerton]

UK set to ban Huawei from 5G, angering China and pleasing Trump



Contrary to Liu Xiaoming's wishful thinking, the UK's public image and legitimacy abroad will be greatly strengthened as a result. Chinese threats are not going to cause the UK to back down. Instead, they will likely galvanize public opinion even more firmly against China. Good job Boris for standing up to the CCP.

[Ostroeuropa]

My evidence is the fact we are at least a generation into this great experiment you're defending and its supposed benefits have yet to materialise - and indeed there is no sign that they will at any point. The 2017 Great British Class Survey, coincidentally taken 25 years after the Further and Higher Education Act 1992 (one of the most significant legislative pieces of the massification of the academy) has shown that the three 'working class' class sectors they identify, which make up 48% of the population, still as a rule have low economic, cultural, and social capital (with the exception of the high cultural capital and mid social capital of the 'emergent service sector,' which contains those graduates whose degree has not left them upwardly socially mobile.)

How can this be when more working-class people than ever have been going to university? Because going to university generally either pushes one into that category just described, or else, if one is successful in landing a better job, into the PMC 'elite' (my terminology here, not the survey's.) The 'elite' that the survey identifies, representing the top 6% of the population, has an over-representation of graduates of elite universities.

My point is that, whatever one's class origins, going to university and then succeeding in life almost without fail pushes one up the class scale and therefore naturally realigns one's class interests. Increasing the numbers of working-class students attending university has had no appreciable positive influence on the working class collectively; neither has it helped society as a whole. Therefore we cannot defend the current university regime, as you have and as we are all expected to, on the basis that it 'helps the working class.' The elite uses this canard as a shield to defend its institutions from any criticism from without the elite. Our understanding of the university system, and consequently our suggestions for change within it, must therefore focus on things other than its capacity for increasing social mobility (either false or ultimately unhelpful to the working class as a whole) like the quality of education.

And again, more people who go to university tend to vote for Labour and other progressive policies.
So no.
You cannot simply brand every working class person who goes to university as an elitist, this is completely unfounded and untrue.

Quite frankly, the Tories are increasing tuition fees anyway, so hardly them trying to protect the university institutions.
There are also the types of universities and what people study.
It's not as simple as "people who go to university will one day be elites," That's just laughable.

Labours share of the vote hasn't increased since we almost doubled the number of people going to university. There's a correlation but a demonstrable lack of the causation which you are implying. (I.E, that going to university *turns someone* into a Labour voter).

If these people would vote Labour anyway, as seems to be the case, then this is hardly a benefit of university and bringing it up is pointless statistical voodoo.

I'm inclined to agree with Thatt here, even though i'm a fan of university for learnings sake. But in terms of it being some kind of great boon to the working classes (Beyond the provision of professionals like doctors and so on), i'm skeptical.

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

UK set to ban Huawei from 5G, angering China and pleasing Trump



Contrary to Liu Xiaoming's wishful thinking, the UK's public image and legitimacy abroad will be greatly strengthened as a result. Chinese threats are not going to cause the UK to back down. Instead, they will likely galvanize public opinion even more firmly against China. Good job Boris for standing up to the CCP.

Yeah we will just continue to fall behind with broadband infrastructure instead. What makes this even worse is the constant flip flopping. I'm presuming this is more about currying favour with the US.

[Thepeopl]

UK set to ban Huawei from 5G, angering China and pleasing Trump



Contrary to Liu Xiaoming's wishful thinking, the UK's public image and legitimacy abroad will be greatly strengthened as a result. Chinese threats are not going to cause the UK to back down. Instead, they will likely galvanize public opinion even more firmly against China. Good job Boris for standing up to the CCP.

Yeah we will just continue to fall behind with broadband infrastructure instead. What makes this even worse is the constant flip flopping. I'm presuming this is more about currying favour with the US.

Well, it might be an incentive for UK companies to make high quality 5G. Or just buy the Dutch tech when they have created 5G.

[Ostroeuropa]

Thanatttynia + Celritannia

Post on this topic from a while ago;

This is why my mother is skeptical of universities despite having gone herself. She does not approve of ceding education on certain subjects to the middle class and the professionalization of it. I somewhat agree with her, but thanks to Thatcherism destroying British society there is not much we can do about it, and the old community based labour-union movement is not going to come back under these circumstances.


It goes beyond the mere selection of MPs. The appropriation of working class agency and identity is multifaceted and pervades practically all aspects of society by this point. Being educated by the unions is not just a matter of producing competent politicians, nor even of providing "social mobility" to workers, it is a community activity in and of itself and ensures that the education and how it is framed and the values it instills remain in the control of the working classes.


Capitalist Liberals up and decided to provide middle class education while waffling about social mobility.

No thanks. We'd prefer you just recognize the union classes as a valid method of obtaining qualifications instead of suddenly deciding it's important we have the opportunity to go to your posh universities when and only when we've started teaching ourselves and you're scared about what that might lead to if you're not allowed to control that education.

But oh well.

It means that someone transitioning from working class to middle class now has an entirely new set of values instilled in them, and a middle class way of viewing the topic they approach. They are taught by middle class people how to be a <Insert thing here>. It doesn't matter if they're from the rhondda and a working class lad, they internalize a discourse.

So rather than social mobility helping bring new perspectives and innvoations and values that align with the working class in a way that helps all of society, instead we get something akin to Oreos. (You know. Black on the outside, white on the inside) patronizingly telling people they "Know where they come from" and so on.

Maybe they do, but they've forgotten where their perspective and understanding on their profession and how to improve it and so on comes from, and its not from the working class.


The fact is, a group of miners and the local parish primary school teacher teaching their friend how to be a doctor are going to produce a fundamentally different kind of doctor than a university is, even if they all utilize the same textbooks and agree on the material facts of reality.

So yeah you might get miiiiillllddly new perspectives in the profession because of the background of the person (because as we all know, childhood and school gives you a firm grasp of how the world works for adults so that by the time you complete your a-levels, you're an expert on working class life and can bugger off to university and "represent" them .), but you lose out on truly fundamentally new perspectives that actually serve the values, needs, and interests of the working class as they approach the profession.


Moreover, social mobility is ceded to the liberals and the capitalists and the middle class. It is by them extending this generous welfare that you too can become like them, rather than the working class elevating individuals.


It's all pretty sad to think about.

Fuck thatcher.

I'd recommend "Deschooling society" and Chomsky's lectures on Education for the masses to bolster this point.

Here is the OG Breadtuber discussing it from a decade or two ago.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R3ONppw67VU

(6 minutes).

And here is an hour and a half lecture from Chomsky on the subject.

https://youtu.be/e_EgdShO1K8

[Vassenor]

UK set to ban Huawei from 5G, angering China and pleasing Trump



Contrary to Liu Xiaoming's wishful thinking, the UK's public image and legitimacy abroad will be greatly strengthened as a result. Chinese threats are not going to cause the UK to back down. Instead, they will likely galvanize public opinion even more firmly against China. Good job Boris for standing up to the CCP.

So what threat did Huawei actually represent beyond CHINA BAD?

[Vassenor]

Yeah we will just continue to fall behind with broadband infrastructure instead. What makes this even worse is the constant flip flopping. I'm presuming this is more about currying favour with the US.

Well, it might be an incentive for UK companies to make high quality 5G. Or just buy the Dutch tech when they have created 5G.

-looks at how our GALILEO replacement is coming along-

-laughs-

[Kragholm Free States]

UK set to ban Huawei from 5G, angering China and pleasing Trump



Contrary to Liu Xiaoming's wishful thinking, the UK's public image and legitimacy abroad will be greatly strengthened as a result. Chinese threats are not going to cause the UK to back down. Instead, they will likely galvanize public opinion even more firmly against China. Good job Boris for standing up to the CCP.

So what threat did Huawei actually represent beyond CHINA BAD?

China actually being really quite bad is a decent enough reason.

[Ostroeuropa]

UK set to ban Huawei from 5G, angering China and pleasing Trump



Contrary to Liu Xiaoming's wishful thinking, the UK's public image and legitimacy abroad will be greatly strengthened as a result. Chinese threats are not going to cause the UK to back down. Instead, they will likely galvanize public opinion even more firmly against China. Good job Boris for standing up to the CCP.

So what threat did Huawei actually represent beyond CHINA BAD?

Chinese companies owning our infastructure increases our reliance on them and their power over us. It also allows them to put spyware in at a later date when they have cornered the market here and normalized their presence.

[Vassenor]

So what threat did Huawei actually represent beyond CHINA BAD?

Chinese companies owning our infastructure increases our reliance on them and their power over us. It also allows them to put spyware in at a later date when they have cornered the market here and normalized their presence.

So CHINA BAD then.

Since back in January the security assessment showed no risk.

[Dumb Ideologies]

Chinese companies owning our infastructure increases our reliance on them and their power over us. It also allows them to put spyware in at a later date when they have cornered the market here and normalized their presence.

So CHINA BAD then.

Since back in January the security assessment showed no risk.

Perhaps the original assessment was flawed and overly driven by economic imperatives. You'll be surprised to hear that this would not be entirely without precedent.

[The Huskar Social Union]

UK set to ban Huawei from 5G, angering China and pleasing Trump



Contrary to Liu Xiaoming's wishful thinking, the UK's public image and legitimacy abroad will be greatly strengthened as a result. Chinese threats are not going to cause the UK to back down. Instead, they will likely galvanize public opinion even more firmly against China. Good job Boris for standing up to the CCP.

So what threat did Huawei actually represent beyond CHINA BAD?

Is this what you are doing? Really?

Yes China in fact bad, its government are a bunch of tyrannical fucking cunts and its far better for Britain to have as little to do with China as it can, especially when it comes to any kind of information network or infrastructure

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

So what threat did Huawei actually represent beyond CHINA BAD?

Chinese companies owning our infastructure increases our reliance on them and their power over us. It also allows them to put spyware in at a later date when they have cornered the market here and normalized their presence.

Any country we buy off could do the same. We need to get good at detecting spyware. Any other country is a competitor, and them spying on us is a problem.

[Vassenor]

Chinese companies owning our infastructure increases our reliance on them and their power over us. It also allows them to put spyware in at a later date when they have cornered the market here and normalized their presence.

Any country we buy off could do the same. We need to get good at detecting spyware. Any other country is a competitor, and them spying on us is a problem.

No, what we should be doing is handing total control of our security infrastructure over to the US like a good little lap dog.

[Kragholm Free States]

Any country we buy off could do the same. We need to get good at detecting spyware. Any other country is a competitor, and them spying on us is a problem.

No, what we should be doing is handing total control of our security infrastructure over to the US like a good little lap dog.

So you're saying our only options are to be a client state of the US or China?

[Ostroeuropa]

Any country we buy off could do the same. We need to get good at detecting spyware. Any other country is a competitor, and them spying on us is a problem.

No, what we should be doing is handing total control of our security infrastructure over to the US like a good little lap dog.

Mfw people are so anti-america and so anti-western they're shilling for a genocidal communist dictatorship.

[CoraSpia]

No, what we should be doing is handing total control of our security infrastructure over to the US like a good little lap dog.

Mfw people are so anti-america and so anti-western they're shilling for a genocidal communist dictatorship.

Why not just let people bid for it like we've always done?

[The Islands of Versilia]

Mfw people are so anti-america and so anti-western they're shilling for a genocidal communist dictatorship.

Why not just let people bid for it like we've always done?

In my view we should be tossing out foreign ownership of our infrastructure. It’s nothing short of international prostitution and makes us nothing more than free real estate to any other power. British Infrastructure should be in British hands.

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

Is this also going to mean the end of Chinese involvement in our nuclear plans? Or are we going to get more yes but no but yes but no...