UK Politics Thread XII: The Lockdown

[Celritannia]

No, I was on about after education. A student loan is damaging, when you have to also pay for a mortgage and things to do with cars.

And thus removing student loans will help that.

Isn't the amount they take out of your income tiny though? I mean like 'you won't notice it' levels of tiny?

But if you work paycheck to paycheck, it isn't tiny. It can unbalance payment plans.

[Kragholm Free States]

I don't agree that the government should pay for it though. Honestly I think the current student loan system works rather better than it's given credit for in terms of getting people to pay for their university education while also not sending the bailiffs round to kick your dog and burn your house down if you legitimately can't pay it back.

Firstly, income really is not the only thing of value in life. Secondly, improved income relative to what? Other people who went to uni? The national average? Some guy who became a billionaire with no qualifications?

The current student loan system in the UK, well, England and Wales, is not the best at all. There is too much bureaucracy, and it still costs a lot when you need to pay for a house, or rent, a car, and other necessary things.
It has the potential to put people in debt, although less so than in the US.

I never said it was the best, I have no real idea what the best system would look like. Any transaction has the potential to put people in debt, but UK student debt is forgiving in the extreme (and I fully agree with it being so) - only paid off after a certain income is reached, automatic so there's no effort required and no consequences for missing a payment, and if someone is unfortunate enough to get to 50 without making enough to pay it off it just gets wiped with no questions asked.

There are certainly other expenses for students - accommodation, transport etc. - but these are expenses for everybody, student or otherwise. We expect everyone else to pay for their own car and house, and the maintenance loan goes some way to ensuring that students can too without needing the income of a full-time job.

[CoraSpia]

Isn't the amount they take out of your income tiny though? I mean like 'you won't notice it' levels of tiny?

But if you work paycheck to paycheck, it isn't tiny. It can unbalance payment plans.

I don't really feel qualified to speak on the subject since I've never been/never will be in that situation. I'll take your word for it.

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

I don't agree that the government should pay for it though. Honestly I think the current student loan system works rather better than it's given credit for in terms of getting people to pay for their university education while also not sending the bailiffs round to kick your dog and burn your house down if you legitimately can't pay it back.

Firstly, income really is not the only thing of value in life. Secondly, improved income relative to what? Other people who went to uni? The national average? Some guy who became a billionaire with no qualifications?

It is not the only value of life but if you are giving up 4 years of income and will get nothing out of it besides information then you are better served working and getting information from the library and watching free lectures on youtube.

Improved income vs what you would have had you not attended university. If you come out of university doing the same job you had going in it is time for society to rethink how many people are attending university and how many degrees are being given in each field. If you are a bartender and go to university and four years later you are a bartender with a history degree did you really benefit from university in anyway that you could not have done by reading at the local library ?

Local libraries are soon to be history.

[Celritannia]

The current student loan system in the UK, well, England and Wales, is not the best at all. There is too much bureaucracy, and it still costs a lot when you need to pay for a house, or rent, a car, and other necessary things.
It has the potential to put people in debt, although less so than in the US.

I never said it was the best, I have no real idea what the best system would look like. Any transaction has the potential to put people in debt, but UK student debt is forgiving in the extreme (and I fully agree with it being so) - only paid off after a certain income is reached, automatic so there's no effort required and no consequences for missing a payment, and if someone is unfortunate enough to get to 50 without making enough to pay it off it just gets wiped with no questions asked.

There are certainly other expenses for students - accommodation, transport etc. - but these are expenses for everybody, student or otherwise. We expect everyone else to pay for their own car and house, and the maintenance loan goes some way to ensuring that students can too without needing the income of a full-time job.

Sure, but if you lived here and saw the problems with it, you would understand the problems with student loans.

[Greed and Death]

It is not the only value of life but if you are giving up 4 years of income and will get nothing out of it besides information then you are better served working and getting information from the library and watching free lectures on youtube.

Improved income vs what you would have had you not attended university. If you come out of university doing the same job you had going in it is time for society to rethink how many people are attending university and how many degrees are being given in each field. If you are a bartender and go to university and four years later you are a bartender with a history degree did you really benefit from university in anyway that you could not have done by reading at the local library ?

Studying history at university, or any theory course does help you gain skills in problem finding, research, independent and group work, word processing, etc.

And you can get all of that without university libraries, youtube lectures, protests, and like. The only real reason you go to university is to get a piece of paper that says you can do all of those.

That piece of paper helps if you want to be a history teacher, and for certain management type jobs.
The problem is there are only so many history teacher jobs and even fewer management type jobs where being able to read, argue, and write really helps.

[Kragholm Free States]

I never said it was the best, I have no real idea what the best system would look like. Any transaction has the potential to put people in debt, but UK student debt is forgiving in the extreme (and I fully agree with it being so) - only paid off after a certain income is reached, automatic so there's no effort required and no consequences for missing a payment, and if someone is unfortunate enough to get to 50 without making enough to pay it off it just gets wiped with no questions asked.

There are certainly other expenses for students - accommodation, transport etc. - but these are expenses for everybody, student or otherwise. We expect everyone else to pay for their own car and house, and the maintenance loan goes some way to ensuring that students can too without needing the income of a full-time job.

Sure, but if you lived here and saw the problems with it, you would understand the problems with student loans.

Lived where? I live in the UK, I study in the UK and unlike GVH I do have ample experience with the student loan system. I admit I'm probably fortunate to study in a city where accommodation is plentiful and cheap, so that might be more of a problem elsewhere, but surely that's more a house prices issue than a student loans issue.

[Thanatttynia]

Studying history at university, or any theory course does help you gain skills in problem finding, research, independent and group work, word processing, etc.

And you can get all of that without university libraries, youtube lectures, protests, and like. The only real reason you go to university is to get a piece of paper that says you can do all of those.

That piece of paper helps if you want to be a history teacher, and for certain management type jobs.
The problem is there are only so many history teacher jobs and even fewer management type jobs where being able to read, argue, and write really helps.

The function of the university should be to provide a liberal education impossible to achieve on one's own. Despite (imo because of) the apparent massification of the academy, such a liberal education remains the preserve of the rich and a small number of students recruited from select minorities.

The staggering number of universities are not churning out masses of well-educated people, but masses of siloed elites who have passed through university in the same way as they passed through school, i.e. without engaging in education, except now indoctrinated by elite ideology, 'a knowledge class whose 'subversive' activities do not seriously threaten any vested interest.'

[Greed and Death]

And you can get all of that without university libraries, youtube lectures, protests, and like. The only real reason you go to university is to get a piece of paper that says you can do all of those.

That piece of paper helps if you want to be a history teacher, and for certain management type jobs.
The problem is there are only so many history teacher jobs and even fewer management type jobs where being able to read, argue, and write really helps.

The function of the university should be to provide a liberal education impossible to achieve on one's own. Despite (imo because of) the apparent massification of the academy, such a liberal education remains the preserve of the rich and a small number of students recruited from select minorities.

The staggering number of universities are not churning out masses of well-educated people, but masses of siloed elites who have passed through university in the same way as they passed through school, i.e. without engaging in education, except now indoctrinated by elite ideology, 'a knowledge class whose 'subversive' activities do not seriously threaten any vested interest.'

I see you have been reading the

The Theory and Practice of Oligarchical Collectivism

Emmanuel Goldstein is such an amazing author.

[Celritannia]

Studying history at university, or any theory course does help you gain skills in problem finding, research, independent and group work, word processing, etc.

And you can get all of that without university libraries, youtube lectures, protests, and like. The only real reason you go to university is to get a piece of paper that says you can do all of those.

That piece of paper helps if you want to be a history teacher, and for certain management type jobs.
The problem is there are only so many history teacher jobs and even fewer management type jobs where being able to read, argue, and write really helps.

And youtube is still new in terms of education, but does not offer a structured learning system either.

And not many people who study history want to go into teaching history. I don't.

And you can get all of that without university libraries, youtube lectures, protests, and like. The only real reason you go to university is to get a piece of paper that says you can do all of those.

That piece of paper helps if you want to be a history teacher, and for certain management type jobs.
The problem is there are only so many history teacher jobs and even fewer management type jobs where being able to read, argue, and write really helps.

The function of the university should be to provide a liberal education impossible to achieve on one's own. Despite (imo because of) the apparent massification of the academy, such a liberal education remains the preserve of the rich and a small number of students recruited from select minorities.

The staggering number of universities are not churning out masses of well-educated people, but masses of siloed elites who have passed through university in the same way as they passed through school, i.e. without engaging in education, except now indoctrinated by elite ideology, 'a knowledge class whose 'subversive' activities do not seriously threaten any vested interest.'

Not really.
The more students going to university, helps people become more intellectual and understanding the society they live in.
When education is restricted, then it is the elite that do not want people to think for themselves as much.

The problem with education in the UK as a whole, is that it does limit the potential for working class individuals. Which is why allowing more working class students get into university is better.

[Thanatttynia]

Not really.
The more students going to university, helps people become more intellectual and understanding the society they live in.
When education is restricted, then it is the elite that do not want people to think for themselves as much.

The problem with education in the UK as a whole, is that it does limit the potential for working class individuals. Which is why allowing more working class students get into university is better.

Without change, 'more working class people at university' will be about as meaningful as 'more female war criminals' or 'more black oligarchs.' It doesn't matter if more individual working-class people get to university if they are almost without exception turned into elites and thereby perpetuate the evils of our society.

I see you have been reading the

The Theory and Practice of Oligarchical Collectivism

Emmanuel Goldstein is such an amazing author.

You got me! Thanks hes one of my favourites

[Celritannia]

Without change, 'more working class people at university' will be about as meaningful as 'more female war criminals' or 'more black oligarchs.' It doesn't matter if more individual working-class people get to university if they are almost without exception turned into elites and thereby perpetuate the evils of our society.

Unless you have evidence to support this claim, this just sounds like a conspiracy theory.

[Greed and Death]

And you can get all of that without university libraries, youtube lectures, protests, and like. The only real reason you go to university is to get a piece of paper that says you can do all of those.

That piece of paper helps if you want to be a history teacher, and for certain management type jobs.
The problem is there are only so many history teacher jobs and even fewer management type jobs where being able to read, argue, and write really helps.

And youtube is still new in terms of education, but does not offer a structured learning system either.

And not many people who study history want to go into teaching history. I don't.


<Snip>

The problem with education in the UK as a whole, is that it does limit the potential for working class individuals. Which is why allowing more working class students get into university is better.

If you want structure you do what the professors do steal another professor's syllabus. Even better if you get a syllabus from the professor who is uploading his courses on youtube. If anything learning to structure your own courses will improve your organization skills better than having it spoon fed to you by a professor.

I am aware I have a history degree. Understand if you are not taking the safe harbor of teaching you have a double digit chance of having to work in retail or service. It is the lower end double digits for fairly elite universities and the higher end of double digits for lower tier ( ie majority working class student bodies).

I am sure the working class will appreciate being made aware of how society fucked them over by pushing them to university rather than to a career after secondary school.

[Celritannia]

And youtube is still new in terms of education, but does not offer a structured learning system either.

And not many people who study history want to go into teaching history. I don't.


<Snip>

The problem with education in the UK as a whole, is that it does limit the potential for working class individuals. Which is why allowing more working class students get into university is better.

If you want structure you do what the professors do steal another professor's syllabus. Even better if you get a syllabus from the professor who is uploading his courses on youtube. If anything learning to structure your own courses will improve your organization skills better than having it spoon fed to you by a professor.

I am aware I have a history degree. Understand if you are not taking the safe harbor of teaching you have a double digit chance of having to work in retail or service. It is the lower end double digits for fairly elite universities and the higher end of double digits for lower tier ( ie majority working class student bodies).

I am sure the working class will appreciate being made aware of how society fucked them over by pushing them to university rather than to a career after secondary school.

Again, a structured learning environment with other people is better than studying on your own. Plus, a University structure in general is better.

I have applied to do my Master's degree in Writing for Performance and Production, which I have an interview with the director of the course tomorrow.

I do think people should take a practical and a theoretical course at university. In the UK, we only take one course we study for 3 years, but we probably need to do 2.

[Philjia]

The purpose of university is to take A level students who think they might know something and demonstrate to them that they actually don't know anything, thereby properly preparing them for complex jobs. This seems to have failed in the case of the cabinet, however.

[Thanatttynia]

Without change, 'more working class people at university' will be about as meaningful as 'more female war criminals' or 'more black oligarchs.' It doesn't matter if more individual working-class people get to university if they are almost without exception turned into elites and thereby perpetuate the evils of our society.

Unless you have evidence to support this claim, this just sounds like a conspiracy theory.

Has the increasing number of working-class university graduates done anything for the working class? Have we seen, for example, more class solidarity - or more solidarity of any kind - since this expansion? Have working-class communities been helped by a brain drain and the increased mobility of intelligent young working-class people? No, no, no. Why? Because 'working-class people' do not as a rule survive university education.

[Celritannia]

Unless you have evidence to support this claim, this just sounds like a conspiracy theory.

Has the increasing number of working-class university graduates done anything for the working class? Have we seen, for example, more class solidarity - or more solidarity of any kind - since this expansion? Have working-class communities been helped by a brain drain and the increased mobility of intelligent young working-class people? No, no, no. Why? Because 'working-class people' do not as a rule survive university education.

Working class university students tend to support Labour policies, so yes, yes they are trying to help the regular people out.

Let's not forget who is currently the major party in Parliament.

[Greed and Death]

If you want structure you do what the professors do steal another professor's syllabus. Even better if you get a syllabus from the professor who is uploading his courses on youtube. If anything learning to structure your own courses will improve your organization skills better than having it spoon fed to you by a professor.

I am aware I have a history degree. Understand if you are not taking the safe harbor of teaching you have a double digit chance of having to work in retail or service. It is the lower end double digits for fairly elite universities and the higher end of double digits for lower tier ( ie majority working class student bodies).

I am sure the working class will appreciate being made aware of how society fucked them over by pushing them to university rather than to a career after secondary school.

Again, a structured learning environment with other people is better than studying on your own. Plus, a University structure in general is better.

I have applied to do my Master's degree in Writing for Performance and Production, which I have an interview with the director of the course tomorrow.

I do think people should take a practical and a theoretical course at university. In the UK, we only take one course we study for 3 years, but we probably need to do 2.

A university structure is also generally inflexible which is why it is difficult to maintain a full time income. The lack of strict structure allows students to pick up and drop off where needed, there is no need to decide between overtime and class if you are self taught.

You do not need university for people either if the religious can organize imaginary friend conventions, the UFO nuts can organize UFO conventions you can organize a few dozen to discuss whether the economies of the southern colonies were agrarian or entrepreneurial.

[Celritannia]

Again, a structured learning environment with other people is better than studying on your own. Plus, a University structure in general is better.

I have applied to do my Master's degree in Writing for Performance and Production, which I have an interview with the director of the course tomorrow.

I do think people should take a practical and a theoretical course at university. In the UK, we only take one course we study for 3 years, but we probably need to do 2.

A university structure is also generally inflexible which is why it is difficult to maintain a full time income. The lack of strict structure allows students to pick up and drop off where needed, there is no need to decide between overtime and class if you are self taught.

You do not need university for people either if the religious can organize imaginary friend conventions, the UFO nuts can organize UFO conventions you can organize a few dozen to discuss whether the economies of the southern colonies were agrarian or entrepreneurial.

Depends on the country as well.
My university course was quite structured.

But the more we move to online courses than at university, then perhaps we will see both work and education done from home, as we have seen during this crisis.

Perhaps, but with UFOs things, they do not analyse information.
I mean, I could organise that, but I know nothing about it.

BTW, this thread is focusing on education, if you wish to respond to me there.

[Thanatttynia]

Has the increasing number of working-class university graduates done anything for the working class? Have we seen, for example, more class solidarity - or more solidarity of any kind - since this expansion? Have working-class communities been helped by a brain drain and the increased mobility of intelligent young working-class people? No, no, no. Why? Because 'working-class people' do not as a rule survive university education.

Working class university students tend to support Labour policies, so yes, yes they are trying to help the regular people out.

Let's not forget who is currently the major party in Parliament.

I'm talking about a systemic problem here that little depends, if at all, on the colour of the Prime Minister's tie. No political party today looks out for the working class, but even if one did this is a separate issue

[Celritannia]

Working class university students tend to support Labour policies, so yes, yes they are trying to help the regular people out.

Let's not forget who is currently the major party in Parliament.

I'm talking about a systemic problem here that little depends, if at all, on the colour of the Prime Minister's tie. No political party today looks out for the working class, but even if it did this is a separate issue

So again, it's just a conspiracy theory you are promoting.

[Thanatttynia]

I'm talking about a systemic problem here that little depends, if at all, on the colour of the Prime Minister's tie. No political party today looks out for the working class, but even if it did this is a separate issue

So again, it's just a conspiracy theory you are promoting.

Well, okay. Which part of the conspiracy theory do you think is wrong?

[Celritannia]

So again, it's just a conspiracy theory you are promoting.

Well, okay. Which part of the conspiracy theory do you think is wrong?

The fact you have no evidence.

[Shamhnan Insir]

The purpose of university is to take A level students who think they might know something and demonstrate to them that they actually don't know anything, thereby properly preparing them for complex jobs. This seems to have failed in the case of the cabinet, however.

Shite rises to the surface and all is usually well if whoever pulls the levers knows to skim off that layer before setting people to task. In this case I do think that whoever (it's rather obvious) was pulling the levers had the sole mission of fucking the country as hard as is physically possible.

[Thanatttynia]

Well, okay. Which part of the conspiracy theory do you think is wrong?

The fact you have no evidence.

My evidence is the fact we are at least a generation into this great experiment you're defending and its supposed benefits have yet to materialise - and indeed there is no sign that they will at any point. The 2017 Great British Class Survey, coincidentally taken 25 years after the Further and Higher Education Act 1992 (one of the most significant legislative pieces of the massification of the academy) has shown that the three 'working class' class sectors they identify, which make up 48% of the population, still as a rule have low economic, cultural, and social capital (with the exception of the high cultural capital and mid social capital of the 'emergent service sector,' which contains those graduates whose degree has not left them upwardly socially mobile.)

How can this be when more working-class people than ever have been going to university? Because going to university generally either pushes one into that category just described, or else, if one is successful in landing a better job, into the PMC 'elite' (my terminology here, not the survey's.) The 'elite' that the survey identifies, representing the top 6% of the population, has an over-representation of graduates of elite universities.

My point is that, whatever one's class origins, going to university and then succeeding in life almost without fail pushes one up the class scale and therefore naturally realigns one's class interests. Increasing the numbers of working-class students attending university has had no appreciable positive influence on the working class collectively; neither has it helped society as a whole. Therefore we cannot defend the current university regime, as you have and as we are all expected to, on the basis that it 'helps the working class.' This canard is used as a shield to defend elite institutions from any criticism from without the elite.

I am not saying that it is wrong to go to university, nor that universities are harmful, nor that the working class cannot benefit from university education. I am saying that no-one is benefitting from the system as it is currently constituted, and that our understanding of the university system, and consequently our suggestions for change within it, must therefore focus on things other than its capacity for increasing social mobility (either false or ultimately unhelpful to the working class as a whole) like my personal bugbear the quality of education.