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UK Politics Thread XII: The Lockdown

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Should the UK Take a Harder Line Against Russia on the Basis of the ISC Report?

Yes
56
67%
No
14
17%
No *vote amended by GRU*
13
16%
 
Total votes : 83

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Fartsniffage
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Postby Fartsniffage » Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:52 pm

Hirota wrote:Given Boris Johnson had the most ethnically diverse cabinet in UK history, and given this party still - overwhelmingly - got the an increased majority in the commons from that filthy electorate who supposedly looks down on minorities, I'd suggest your talking utter nonsense Fart.


....nah.
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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:54 pm

Hirota wrote:Given Boris Johnson had the most ethnically diverse cabinet in UK history, and given this party still - overwhelmingly - got the an increased majority in the commons from that filthy electorate who supposedly looks down on minorities, I'd suggest your talking utter nonsense Fart.


This tbh.

The British Public are the least racist in Europe when its been studied.

You can make a case we're quite *xenophobic*, but that's actually really common for "High context" cultures like ours, and is frankly not as much of a moral issue as racism, since assimilationist monoculturalism is a legitimate view to hold on how society should be organized.

It's why the UK is fond of the notion of hong kongers coming over but went ballistic about Romanians and Bulgarians.

I would suggest the consensus in the UK is probably "Gatekept multiculturalism" where some cultures are deemed undesirable or are forced to go through a hazing process as they enter the cluster of tolerated cultures where their undesirable aspects are called out and seared away.


This can also explain why White Nationalists were out campaigning for remain, but the public overall decided to abandon the European Project in favor of "We prefer people who speak English and drink Tea thankyou. We'd rather a Hong Konger or a Jamaican than a Frenchman.".
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Fartsniffage
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Postby Fartsniffage » Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:55 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Hirota wrote:Given Boris Johnson had the most ethnically diverse cabinet in UK history, and given this party still - overwhelmingly - got the an increased majority in the commons from that filthy electorate who supposedly looks down on minorities, I'd suggest your talking utter nonsense Fart.


This tbh.

The British Public are the least racist in Europe when its been studied.

You can make a case we're quite *xenophobic*, but that's actually really common for "High context" cultures like ours, and is frankly not as much of a moral issue as racism, since assimilationist monoculturalism is a legitimate view to hold on how society should be organized.

It's why the UK is fond of the notion of hong kongers coming over but went ballistic about Romanians and Bulgarians.

I would suggest the consensus in the UK is probably "Gatekept multiculturalism" where some cultures are deemed undesirable.


https://youtu.be/mXLS2IzZSdg?t=206
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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:58 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
This tbh.

The British Public are the least racist in Europe when its been studied.

You can make a case we're quite *xenophobic*, but that's actually really common for "High context" cultures like ours, and is frankly not as much of a moral issue as racism, since assimilationist monoculturalism is a legitimate view to hold on how society should be organized.

It's why the UK is fond of the notion of hong kongers coming over but went ballistic about Romanians and Bulgarians.

I would suggest the consensus in the UK is probably "Gatekept multiculturalism" where some cultures are deemed undesirable.


https://youtu.be/mXLS2IzZSdg?t=206


I mean that's true, but I don't think it would come to characterize public policy in the way you're concerned about. Especially if Labour went full in on Nationalism while carefully elevating Black Englishmen and so on to speak on the topic.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Fri Jul 10, 2020 2:59 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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New Bremerton
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Postby New Bremerton » Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:14 pm

Hirota wrote:Given Boris Johnson had the most ethnically diverse cabinet in UK history, and given this party still - overwhelmingly - got an increased majority in the commons from that filthy electorate who supposedly looks down on minorities, I'd suggest your talking utter nonsense Fart.


Funny how the current government's ethnically diverse cabinet and the inauguration of not one, but two female prime ministers aren't being celebrated as milestones and endlessly hailed and routinely paraded as an inspiration to millions of young girls and children of color by the MeToo/BLM/white man bad crowd.
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Fartsniffage
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Postby Fartsniffage » Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:15 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:


I mean that's true, but I don't think it would come to characterize public policy in the way you're concerned about. Especially if Labour went full in on Nationalism while carefully elevating Black Englishmen and so on to speak on the topic.


How could the Labour party appeal to the majority without having policies that reflect what they want in terms of social change? They'd at best be Tory light and then they wouldn't be the Labour party.
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Gormwood
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Postby Gormwood » Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:34 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
Hirota wrote:Given Boris Johnson had the most ethnically diverse cabinet in UK history, and given this party still - overwhelmingly - got the an increased majority in the commons from that filthy electorate who supposedly looks down on minorities, I'd suggest your talking utter nonsense Fart.


....nah.

Tokenism is now diversity? Pffft.
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Fartsniffage
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Postby Fartsniffage » Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:36 pm

Gormwood wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
....nah.

Tokenism is now diversity? Pffft.


You're a chocolate teapot dude.
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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:55 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
I mean that's true, but I don't think it would come to characterize public policy in the way you're concerned about. Especially if Labour went full in on Nationalism while carefully elevating Black Englishmen and so on to speak on the topic.


How could the Labour party appeal to the majority without having policies that reflect what they want in terms of social change? They'd at best be Tory light and then they wouldn't be the Labour party.


Well we can ban circumcision and halal slaughter for one, push more integration for another, and crack down on religiously segregated schooling. Is that so terrible?

Also, these struggles have defined the Labour party since *forever* and we *keep having this discussion* with the far-left and the "Multichromatic fringe" as Wilson called them when he spoke to conference about how they were fucking up the party, and so did Blair (Or at least, blair made noises about them being a problem and pandered to the electorate on those grounds).

Labour only becomes electable when we sideline these factions. And under those Labour governments progress has been made for minorities. I think you need to accept that you either have to compromise your ideals or get perpetual Tory rule. It's not us "ceasing to be the Labour party" if the Trotskyists and "Multichromatic fringe" are no longer in charge of its social policy. This is a cycle we go through every couple of years.

Labour is only electable when it takes a stance of marginalizing the woke brigade and Trotskyists of their particular era. Only then can it get elected and make progress for workers and minorities.

Wilson simultaneously talked shit about the woke brigade of his time and the Marxists, while legalizing homosexuality and abortion. It's possible.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Fri Jul 10, 2020 3:58 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby CoraSpia » Fri Jul 10, 2020 4:07 pm

Gormwood wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:
....nah.

Tokenism is now diversity? Pffft.

TIL two of the great offices of state is 'tokenism.'
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Celritannia
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Postby Celritannia » Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:13 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Hirota wrote:Given Boris Johnson had the most ethnically diverse cabinet in UK history, and given this party still - overwhelmingly - got the an increased majority in the commons from that filthy electorate who supposedly looks down on minorities, I'd suggest your talking utter nonsense Fart.


This tbh.

The British Public are the least racist in Europe when its been studied.

You can make a case we're quite *xenophobic*, but that's actually really common for "High context" cultures like ours, and is frankly not as much of a moral issue as racism, since assimilationist monoculturalism is a legitimate view to hold on how society should be organized.

It's why the UK is fond of the notion of hong kongers coming over but went ballistic about Romanians and Bulgarians.

I would suggest the consensus in the UK is probably "Gatekept multiculturalism" where some cultures are deemed undesirable or are forced to go through a hazing process as they enter the cluster of tolerated cultures where their undesirable aspects are called out and seared away.


This can also explain why White Nationalists were out campaigning for remain, but the public overall decided to abandon the European Project in favor of "We prefer people who speak English and drink Tea thankyou. We'd rather a Hong Konger or a Jamaican than a Frenchman.".


What study was this?

Also, you must have forgotten the increased racism during and after Brexit.
Vote Leave got help from people not liking foreigners.

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Souseiseki
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Postby Souseiseki » Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:49 pm

Hirota wrote:Given Boris Johnson had the most ethnically diverse cabinet in UK history, and given this party still - overwhelmingly - got an increased majority in the commons from that filthy electorate who supposedly looks down on minorities, I'd suggest your talking utter nonsense Fart.


this is essentially irrelevant because we live in a two party system and the other party loves minorities more so the idea that people who hate minorities would vote conservative is entirely possible

see how scotland and northern england voted labour for years despite absolutely fucking hating them as an example
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Souseiseki
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Postby Souseiseki » Fri Jul 10, 2020 7:53 pm

it is very very weird to say that scotland would probably be able to eliminate coronavirus were it not for england

it sounds like the dumbest bullshit that would come from the deepest reaches of sousposting but here we are
ask moderation about reading serious moderation candidates TGs without telling them about it until afterwards and/or apparently refusing to confirm/deny the exact timeline of TG reading ~~~ i hope you never sent any of the recent mods or the ones that got really close anything personal!

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Gormwood
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Postby Gormwood » Fri Jul 10, 2020 8:44 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
Gormwood wrote:Tokenism is now diversity? Pffft.


You're a chocolate teapot dude.

If you're going to throw an insult at least use something with context.
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Hirota
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Postby Hirota » Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:04 pm

Souseiseki wrote:
Hirota wrote:Given Boris Johnson had the most ethnically diverse cabinet in UK history, and given this party still - overwhelmingly - got an increased majority in the commons from that filthy electorate who supposedly looks down on minorities, I'd suggest your talking utter nonsense Fart.


this is essentially irrelevant because we live in a two party system and the other party loves minorities more so the idea that people who hate minorities would vote conservative is entirely possible
Oh, I'm sure it's very possible that some people might vote that way, but I was challenging the claim that appealing to the majority of the electorate would lead to picking "an other to look down on"

Celritannia wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:The British Public are the least racist in Europe when its been studied.


What study was this?
Ostro might have his own sources, I know of this one: https://www.thelondoneconomic.com/news/ ... ope/26/02/
Also a survey mentioned here in that puts the UK somewhere in the middle: https://metro.co.uk/2018/06/20/racist-c ... d-7646762/
And another piece of research that puts us amongst the best: https://metro.co.uk/2017/05/03/this-map ... s-6612608/
And this one here: https://www.boredpanda.com/racism-in-th ... n=organicA

Also, you must have forgotten the increased racism during and after Brexit.
Vote Leave got help from people not liking foreigners.
How do you measure "increased racism?" And can you measure that alleged increased racism against ongoing, generally low levels of racism compared to other EU nations according to the number of studies linked above?
Maybe you could through the number of hate crimes reported via the police - although hate crimes appear to be a difficult thing to measure, and it seems to spike due to specific events rather than sustain. And can you demonstrate this was racism against BAME individuals, or rather against migrants from other EU countries - specifically immigrants from Eastern Europe. Obviously we all know it's impossible to be racist against white people right? Right?
And again, it's quite possible that some people voted leave because of "not liking foreigners" - but that's a far different claim to suggesting most or even a sizable minority of people voted leave because of not liking foreigners.

Gormwood wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:....nah.

Tokenism is now diversity? Pffft.
<Shrugs> That's according to a literal charity created for improving diversity and inclusion. But of course, some edgy boi on an internet forum knows far better of course. I shall immediately suggest they all resign and replace the Trustees and advisory board with you and a number of your carefully picked friends - for the good of diversity, obviously. :lol:

Gormwood wrote:
Fartsniffage wrote:You're a chocolate teapot dude.
If you're going to throw an insult at least use something with context.
Seems Fart was talking to you, and describing you thusly. I'm sure some people might think the context is most certainly appropriate.
Last edited by Hirota on Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Vassenor
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Postby Vassenor » Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:28 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Hirota wrote:Given Boris Johnson had the most ethnically diverse cabinet in UK history, and given this party still - overwhelmingly - got the an increased majority in the commons from that filthy electorate who supposedly looks down on minorities, I'd suggest your talking utter nonsense Fart.


This tbh.

The British Public are the least racist in Europe when its been studied.

You can make a case we're quite *xenophobic*, but that's actually really common for "High context" cultures like ours, and is frankly not as much of a moral issue as racism, since assimilationist monoculturalism is a legitimate view to hold on how society should be organized.

It's why the UK is fond of the notion of hong kongers coming over but went ballistic about Romanians and Bulgarians.

I would suggest the consensus in the UK is probably "Gatekept multiculturalism" where some cultures are deemed undesirable or are forced to go through a hazing process as they enter the cluster of tolerated cultures where their undesirable aspects are called out and seared away.


This can also explain why White Nationalists were out campaigning for remain, but the public overall decided to abandon the European Project in favor of "We prefer people who speak English and drink Tea thankyou. We'd rather a Hong Konger or a Jamaican than a Frenchman.".


If the White Nationalists supported Remain, why has the EDL repeatedly come out in favour of Leave?
Last edited by Vassenor on Fri Jul 10, 2020 11:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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An Alan Smithee Nation
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Postby An Alan Smithee Nation » Sat Jul 11, 2020 12:34 am

Boris Johnson also has a pretty ethically diverse cabinet.
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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Sat Jul 11, 2020 12:58 am

Vassenor wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
This tbh.

The British Public are the least racist in Europe when its been studied.

You can make a case we're quite *xenophobic*, but that's actually really common for "High context" cultures like ours, and is frankly not as much of a moral issue as racism, since assimilationist monoculturalism is a legitimate view to hold on how society should be organized.

It's why the UK is fond of the notion of hong kongers coming over but went ballistic about Romanians and Bulgarians.

I would suggest the consensus in the UK is probably "Gatekept multiculturalism" where some cultures are deemed undesirable or are forced to go through a hazing process as they enter the cluster of tolerated cultures where their undesirable aspects are called out and seared away.


This can also explain why White Nationalists were out campaigning for remain, but the public overall decided to abandon the European Project in favor of "We prefer people who speak English and drink Tea thankyou. We'd rather a Hong Konger or a Jamaican than a Frenchman.".


If the White Nationalists supported Remain, why has the EDL repeatedly come out in favour of Leave?


Because the EDL aren't racists, they're Xenophobes.
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An Alan Smithee Nation
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Postby An Alan Smithee Nation » Sat Jul 11, 2020 1:14 am

Putting Chris Grayling in charge of the Intelligence and Security Committee - that is a disaster in the making. Has he ever not fucked up?
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Postby The Free Joy State » Sat Jul 11, 2020 1:19 am

An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:Putting Chris Grayling in charge of the Intelligence and Security Committee - that is a disaster in the making. Has he ever not fucked up?

Unfortunately for us, the way the current cabinet's going, he'll probably fit right in.
Last edited by The Free Joy State on Sat Jul 11, 2020 1:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Ostroeuropa
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Sat Jul 11, 2020 1:58 am

Celritannia wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
This tbh.

The British Public are the least racist in Europe when its been studied.

You can make a case we're quite *xenophobic*, but that's actually really common for "High context" cultures like ours, and is frankly not as much of a moral issue as racism, since assimilationist monoculturalism is a legitimate view to hold on how society should be organized.

It's why the UK is fond of the notion of hong kongers coming over but went ballistic about Romanians and Bulgarians.

I would suggest the consensus in the UK is probably "Gatekept multiculturalism" where some cultures are deemed undesirable or are forced to go through a hazing process as they enter the cluster of tolerated cultures where their undesirable aspects are called out and seared away.


This can also explain why White Nationalists were out campaigning for remain, but the public overall decided to abandon the European Project in favor of "We prefer people who speak English and drink Tea thankyou. We'd rather a Hong Konger or a Jamaican than a Frenchman.".


What study was this?

Also, you must have forgotten the increased racism during and after Brexit.
Vote Leave got help from people not liking foreigners.


Hirota has supplied the studies.

You apparently don't understand what racism is. Hating foreigners is not racism, it's xenophobia. As I pointed out, white nationalists were very keen on the idea of a united Europe, because its a continent full of white people, and they're also not keen on BAME Britons. Xenophobes on the other hand would prefer a Black Briton to a White Frenchman.

We're a very xenophobic country, but not a very racist one. This is there was a decades long crusade to leave Europe, and a quiet applause of the notion millions of hong kongers can come over.

In other European countries the difference would be stark. You're probably confusing shit like "Ban the Hijab" for racism because you see so little actual racism.

But if you put "Ban the Hijab, it's not British" next to "Arabs are genetically inferior and filthy" then you're going to notice the difference. We don't target people for their race, but for their culture.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Sat Jul 11, 2020 2:03 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Postby Baltenstein » Sat Jul 11, 2020 2:25 am

When looked at through the lense of US identity politics, Eastern Europeans in general come across as a division by zero. I mean:

- No history of colonialism
- No history of black slavery
- being treated as fiefdoms by foreign empires for centuries
- in some cases, having an industrial genocide inflicted upon them during WW2
- being suppressed by a foreign dictatorship during the Cold War
- low incomes and standards of living and high emigration rates compared to Western countries
- white

The fact that the number of Eastern European immigrants to the US has, to my knowledge, always been comparatively low also makes it easier for Identity Politcs to pretend they don't exist.
Last edited by Baltenstein on Sat Jul 11, 2020 2:26 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Hirota
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Postby Hirota » Sat Jul 11, 2020 2:28 am

An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:Putting Chris Grayling in charge of the Intelligence and Security Committee - that is a disaster in the making. Has he ever not fucked up?
At least we finally get that report into alleged Russian interference into UK politics released... even though I think it would be wishful thinking to expect it to have anything serious in it, given how the government green-lit the report relatively quickly.
Last edited by Hirota on Sat Jul 11, 2020 2:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Shrillland
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Postby Shrillland » Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:13 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Celritannia wrote:
What study was this?

Also, you must have forgotten the increased racism during and after Brexit.
Vote Leave got help from people not liking foreigners.


Hirota has supplied the studies.

You apparently don't understand what racism is. Hating foreigners is not racism, it's xenophobia. As I pointed out, white nationalists were very keen on the idea of a united Europe, because its a continent full of white people, and they're also not keen on BAME Britons. Xenophobes on the other hand would prefer a Black Briton to a White Frenchman.

We're a very xenophobic country, but not a very racist one. This is there was a decades long crusade to leave Europe, and a quiet applause of the notion millions of hong kongers can come over.

In other European countries the difference would be stark. You're probably confusing shit like "Ban the Hijab" for racism because you see so little actual racism.

But if you put "Ban the Hijab, it's not British" next to "Arabs are genetically inferior and filthy" then you're going to notice the difference. We don't target people for their race, but for their culture.


None of this is going to help Labour, however. Even if you remove the woke elements as Kinnock removed the Militant Tendency, you still have the SNP to contend with, and they're the real reason Labour can't succeed anymore. Labour can't win without Scotland and Scotland is prepared to wash its hands of the UK in a way they weren't prepared to six years ago.
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Postby Ostroeuropa » Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:16 am

Shrillland wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
Hirota has supplied the studies.

You apparently don't understand what racism is. Hating foreigners is not racism, it's xenophobia. As I pointed out, white nationalists were very keen on the idea of a united Europe, because its a continent full of white people, and they're also not keen on BAME Britons. Xenophobes on the other hand would prefer a Black Briton to a White Frenchman.

We're a very xenophobic country, but not a very racist one. This is there was a decades long crusade to leave Europe, and a quiet applause of the notion millions of hong kongers can come over.

In other European countries the difference would be stark. You're probably confusing shit like "Ban the Hijab" for racism because you see so little actual racism.

But if you put "Ban the Hijab, it's not British" next to "Arabs are genetically inferior and filthy" then you're going to notice the difference. We don't target people for their race, but for their culture.


None of this is going to help Labour, however. Even if you remove the woke elements as Kinnock removed the Militant Tendency, you still have the SNP to contend with, and they're the real reason Labour can't succeed anymore. Labour can't win without Scotland and Scotland is prepared to wash its hands of the UK in a way they weren't prepared to six years ago.


Labour doesn't need Scotland to win and the last governments it has formed didn't need them.

Besides which, if the loss of Scotland means the country has shifted further to the right, then Labour should shift further to the right to account for it and remain competitive rather than just declaring all is lost.
The plague has been worse for women.
It's true that more men are dying from COVID, but that's not exactly a cause for celebration.
https://i.redd.it/oqy5p3p1ayv41.png

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