UK Politics Thread XII: The Lockdown

[Ostroeuropa]

Think about it: If people hate "woke policy" then why were Labour's proposals rating highly among polling samples when given to them blind?

Labours *economic* policy proposals were highly rated. The others weren't.

Likely for the same reason that "From each according to his ability, to each according to his needs" polls well but the nuts and bolts of how to implement that policy polls poorly.

Nah, that's not it. The Labour party was the only one to even attempt to properly cost their manifesto at the last election.

People were told not to like Corbyn by about 90% of the media in the UK. It worked.

Then why isn't Starmer doing better?

[Fartsniffage]

Then why isn't Starmer doing better?

The guy has had 3 months, most of it during quarantine, with the same media in place. Give him a chance dude.

[Celritannia]

It's almost as if not having a full session in the HoC due to social distancing isn't allowing people to see Labour's true potential.

Dude, this is full blown denial by this point. The Tories have been ahead like this since the election, long before any pandemic.
What would it actually take for you to accept that Labour are unelectable because the country has come to a consensus on left wing identity politics, and that consensus is "No"?

Christ, just imagine if the Tories point blank refused to accept the NHS ever since the Attlee government and how that would fare for their chances.

And Starmer became the Leader just before the pandemic, not much time to show significant growth.

[Ostroeuropa]

Then why isn't Starmer doing better?

The guy has had 3 months, most of it during quarantine, with the same media in place. Give him a chance dude.

The polling on Starmer already shows people see him as competent and more prime ministerial than Johnson and a *significant* improvement over Corbyn. But the party polling remains the same. Being offered a choice between Gordon Ramsey serving you a shit sandwich or some boorish drunk clown trying to cook a fry up isn't a choice to most people, it's a baffling situation where they ask; "why is someone like Gordon trying to sell me a shit sandwich? Couldn't he find real food to try and sell?".

It's clear that it's not the man selling it. People already have their opinions on Starmer and they're far better than Corbyn. But it hasn't translated to support for the party, something else is the factor here.

Yes the shit sandwich is no longer being peddled by someone people view as Osama The Homeless Marxist thanks to the Express going mental for years, but that doesn't make people want it. At best they're bemusedly saying "I sure am glad those people who eat shit found someone less repugnant to sell them shit sandwiches, but I'm not buying one".

[Celritannia]

The guy has had 3 months, most of it during quarantine, with the same media in place. Give him a chance dude.

The polling on Starmer already shows people see him as competent and more prime ministerial than Johnson and a *significant* improvement over Corbyn. But the party polling remains the same. Being offered a choice between Gordon Ramsey serving you a shit sandwich or some boorish drunk clown trying to cook a fry up isn't a choice to most people, it's a baffling situation where they ask; "why is someone like Gordon trying to sell me a shit sandwich? Couldn't he find real food to try and sell?".

It's clear that it's not the man selling it. People already have their opinions on Starmer and they're far better than Corbyn. But it hasn't translated to support for the party, something else is the factor here.

Yes the shit sandwich is no longer being peddled by Osama The Homeless Marxist, but that doesn't make people want it.

Again, Labour has not been the media focus during the Pandemic since Starmer became leader.

You are making assumptions out of nothing.

How can people react to the Opposition when the Opposition is not mentioned?

[CoraSpia]

A fully costed manifesto isn't the magic anti-criticism armour it's made out to be. Look at UKIP in 2015 with our fully costed manifesto.

[Ostroeuropa]

The polling on Starmer already shows people see him as competent and more prime ministerial than Johnson and a *significant* improvement over Corbyn. But the party polling remains the same. Being offered a choice between Gordon Ramsey serving you a shit sandwich or some boorish drunk clown trying to cook a fry up isn't a choice to most people, it's a baffling situation where they ask; "why is someone like Gordon trying to sell me a shit sandwich? Couldn't he find real food to try and sell?".

It's clear that it's not the man selling it. People already have their opinions on Starmer and they're far better than Corbyn. But it hasn't translated to support for the party, something else is the factor here.

Yes the shit sandwich is no longer being peddled by Osama The Homeless Marxist, but that doesn't make people want it.

Again, Labour has not been the media focus during the Pandemic since Starmer became leader.

Making assumptions out of nothing.

Dude. The polling shows *people already think Starmer is good*. There's no *gain* to be made on that front. In fact he should probably keep his mouth shut because it's nowhere but down from his current perception, and media coverage wont help with that.

[Celritannia]

A fully costed manifesto isn't the magic anti-criticism armour it's made out to be. Look at UKIP in 2015 with our fully costed manifesto.

Which was absolute garbage.

[Celritannia]

Again, Labour has not been the media focus during the Pandemic since Starmer became leader.

Making assumptions out of nothing.

Dude. The polling shows *people already think Starmer is good*. There's no *gain* to be made on that front.

But you are blaming Labour as a whole for not performing because they have had no media attention during the pandemic.
Starmer has since he is the leader.
How can people think the Labour Party as a whole is good when they have not had the Media coverage?

[Fartsniffage]

The guy has had 3 months, most of it during quarantine, with the same media in place. Give him a chance dude.

The polling on Starmer already shows people see him as competent and more prime ministerial than Johnson and a *significant* improvement over Corbyn. But the party polling remains the same. Being offered a choice between Gordon Ramsey serving you a shit sandwich or some boorish drunk clown trying to cook a fry up isn't a choice to most people, it's a baffling situation where they ask; "why is someone like Gordon trying to sell me a shit sandwich? Couldn't he find real food to try and sell?".

It's clear that it's not the man selling it. People already have their opinions on Starmer and they're far better than Corbyn. But it hasn't translated to support for the party, something else is the factor here.

Yes the shit sandwich is no longer being peddled by someone people view as Osama The Homeless Marxist thanks to the Express going mental for years, but that doesn't make people want it.

Bullshit. You have no idea what he's going to do with the Labour party because he hasn't had chance to do it yet. Stop blaming a guy for not fixing everything in 3 months during possibly the most problematic time to change things in the Labour party in history.

He fucked off Long-Bailey on the flimsiest excuse. He might actually be about moving away from Momentum. But you don't seem to want to give him the chance.

Give the guy a chance. Or keep bitching and have Torys forever. Your call.

[Ostroeuropa]

The polling on Starmer already shows people see him as competent and more prime ministerial than Johnson and a *significant* improvement over Corbyn. But the party polling remains the same. Being offered a choice between Gordon Ramsey serving you a shit sandwich or some boorish drunk clown trying to cook a fry up isn't a choice to most people, it's a baffling situation where they ask; "why is someone like Gordon trying to sell me a shit sandwich? Couldn't he find real food to try and sell?".

It's clear that it's not the man selling it. People already have their opinions on Starmer and they're far better than Corbyn. But it hasn't translated to support for the party, something else is the factor here.

Yes the shit sandwich is no longer being peddled by someone people view as Osama The Homeless Marxist thanks to the Express going mental for years, but that doesn't make people want it.

Bullshit. You have no idea what he's going to do with the Labour party because he hasn't had chance to do it yet. Stop blaming a guy for not fixing everything in 3 months during possibly the most problematic time to change things in the Labour party in history.

He fucked off Long-Bailey on the flimsiest excuse. He might actually be about moving away from Momentum. But you don't seem to want to give him the chance.

Give the guy a chance. Or keep bitching and have Torys forever. Your call.

You're right in as much as if he hasn't had the opportunity to reposition the party on these topics and if he does so then my analysis is flawed. My point is that this is what he *has* to do in order to make gains, and my suspicion is he wont, he'll just tack more to the right wing on economics, turn up in a shinier suit, and get fucked in the election.

But if you're right and he's planning to fix this mess and make the party more saleable on sociocultural issues, then yes, I'm willing to give him that chance. And to be clear, short of something monumental, he has my vote even if he tries to peddle the same old shit.

Dude. The polling shows *people already think Starmer is good*. There's no *gain* to be made on that front.

But you are blaming Labour as a whole for not performing because they have had no media attention during the pandemic.
Starmer has since he is the leader.
How can people think the Labour Party as a whole is good when they have not had the Media coverage?

I just don't see how they manage to claw this back while still pushing the same sociocultural policies and narratives. It's not a question of competence, or Labour would be ahead by sheer virtue of the Tories being a mess and everyone knowing it. It's not a question of economics, because Corbyns economics were popular. It's *something else*, and I suspect it's the issue of nationalism, immigration, woke shit.

[Fartsniffage]

You're right in as much as if he hasn't had the opportunity to reposition the party on these topics and does so then my analysis is flawed. My point is that this is what he *has* to do in order to make gains, and my suspicion is he wont, he'll just tack more to the right wing on economics, turn up in a shinier suit, and get fucked in the election.

But if you're right and he's planning to fix this mess and make the party more saleable on sociocultural issues, then yes, I'm willing to give him that chance. And to be clear, short of something monumental, he has my vote even if he tries to peddle the same old shit.

The chance of the Labour party getting a majority given the popularity of the SNP in Scotland is slim to none. It's probably Torys from here on out until something changes.

[Ostroeuropa]

You're right in as much as if he hasn't had the opportunity to reposition the party on these topics and does so then my analysis is flawed. My point is that this is what he *has* to do in order to make gains, and my suspicion is he wont, he'll just tack more to the right wing on economics, turn up in a shinier suit, and get fucked in the election.

But if you're right and he's planning to fix this mess and make the party more saleable on sociocultural issues, then yes, I'm willing to give him that chance. And to be clear, short of something monumental, he has my vote even if he tries to peddle the same old shit.

The chance of the Labour party getting a majority given the popularity of the SNP in Scotland is slim to none. It's probably Torys from here on out until something changes.

Right, we need to change our coalition of voters. And my point is, that 40% of people who voted for the Tories *even before the red wall collapsed* think Billionaires shouldn't exist *at all*.

They vote Tory because there is something about our current coalition that drives them absolutely mental. This is backed up by the polling showing Tory voters are closer to Corbyn on economics than they are close to the Tory party, but Labour is off in cartoon land on social issues compared to almost the entire population.

We need a political re-alignment, but if Labour defines that re-alignment and plays its cards right, they could be in power for *decades* until the flaw in that new coalition gets exploited by the Tories like we should be exploiting this one. Instead, we're a glorified protest movement going down with the ship because we're "Principled" and we won't tell the woke crowd to take a hike and start appealing to the sizable amount of Tory votes who are pretty socialistic in their outlook.

It's like how Blair told the Trotskyists to piss off and took us to a landslide.

That's... that's politics. That's how it works. That's how we take power. We don't just filibuster the country in the hopes eventually they'll get sick of the Tories.

[Fartsniffage]

The chance of the Labour party getting a majority given the popularity of the SNP in Scotland is slim to none. It's probably Torys from here on out until something changes.

Right, we need to change our coalition of voters. And my point is, that 40% of people who voted for the Tories *even before the red wall collapsed* think Billionaires shouldn't exist *at all*.

They vote Tory because there is something about our current coalition that drives them absolutely mental. This is backed up by the polling showing Tory voters are closer to Corbyn on economics than they are close to the Tory party, but Labour is off in cartoon land on social issues compared to almost the entire population.

We need a political re-alignment, but if Labour defines that re-alignment and plays its cards right, they could be in power for *decades* until the flaw in that new coalition gets exploited by the Tories like we should be exploiting this one. Instead, we're a glorified protest movement going down with the ship because we're "Principled" and we won't tell the woke crowd to take a hike and start appealing to the sizable amount of Tory votes who are pretty socialistic in their outlook.

The problem is that to go after many of those voters the Labour party would have to have policies that say that all people are not equal. At that point they wouldn't be the Labour party any more.

[Ostroeuropa]

Right, we need to change our coalition of voters. And my point is, that 40% of people who voted for the Tories *even before the red wall collapsed* think Billionaires shouldn't exist *at all*.

They vote Tory because there is something about our current coalition that drives them absolutely mental. This is backed up by the polling showing Tory voters are closer to Corbyn on economics than they are close to the Tory party, but Labour is off in cartoon land on social issues compared to almost the entire population.

We need a political re-alignment, but if Labour defines that re-alignment and plays its cards right, they could be in power for *decades* until the flaw in that new coalition gets exploited by the Tories like we should be exploiting this one. Instead, we're a glorified protest movement going down with the ship because we're "Principled" and we won't tell the woke crowd to take a hike and start appealing to the sizable amount of Tory votes who are pretty socialistic in their outlook.

The problem is that to go after many of those voters the Labour party would have to have policies that say that all people are not equal. At that point they wouldn't be the Labour party any more.

It really wouldn't. It would just need to abandon the extremely narrow minded, ideological, and unpopular conception of what equality means and what it entails pushed by the identity politics left wing. Instead ask *the majority country* what THEY think equality entails, and pursue that.

[Fartsniffage]

The problem is that to go after many of those voters the Labour party would have to have policies that say that all people are not equal. At that point they wouldn't be the Labour party any more.

It really wouldn't. It would just need to abandon the extremely narrow minded, ideological, and unpopular conception of what equality means and what it entails pushed by the identity politics left wing. Instead ask *the majority country* what THEY think equality entails, and pursue that.

Asking the majority what they think equality means has historically been a bad idea. They always pick "an other" to look down on. Always a minority. Doing that isn't what the Labour party is to me. If they chose that route then they lose my vote. And I'd guess lots of other votes as well.

[Ostroeuropa]

It really wouldn't. It would just need to abandon the extremely narrow minded, ideological, and unpopular conception of what equality means and what it entails pushed by the identity politics left wing. Instead ask *the majority country* what THEY think equality entails, and pursue that.

Asking the majority what they think equality means has historically been a bad idea. They always pick "an other" to look down on. Always a minority. Doing that isn't what the Labour party is to me. If they chose that route then they lose my vote. And I'd guess lots of other votes as well.

As opposed to now where the party looks down on the majority? There's also a difference between hostility to a demographic and simply not pushing a narrow ideological view of what their interests are.
There is a difference between "Let's ban women from being CEO'S" and "If you don't support boardroom quotas, you're hostile to women".

What alternative do we have to this, or perpetual Tory rule?

[Fartsniffage]

Asking the majority what they think equality means has historically been a bad idea. They always pick "an other" to look down on. Always a minority. Doing that isn't what the Labour party is to me. If they chose that route then they lose my vote. And I'd guess lots of other votes as well.

As opposed to now where the party looks down on the majority? There's also a difference between hostility to a demographic and simply not pushing a narrow ideological view of what their interests are.
There is a difference between "Let's ban women from being CEO'S" and "If you don't support boardroom quotas, you're hostile to women".

What alternative do we have to this, or perpetual Tory rule?

I was more referring to how the people being looked down on would be the Pakis. Because that's what it would be.

[Ostroeuropa]

As opposed to now where the party looks down on the majority? There's also a difference between hostility to a demographic and simply not pushing a narrow ideological view of what their interests are.
There is a difference between "Let's ban women from being CEO'S" and "If you don't support boardroom quotas, you're hostile to women".

What alternative do we have to this, or perpetual Tory rule?

I was more referring to how the people being looked down on would be the Pakis. Because that's what it would be.

The party doesn't need to support "No Paki" signs in order to appeal to voters. I don't see what the fear would be. What actual policy are you concerned would emerge?

[Fartsniffage]

I was more referring to how the people being looked down on would be the Pakis. Because that's what it would be.

The party doesn't need to support "No Paki" signs in order to appeal to voters. I don't see what the fear would be. What actual policy are you concerned would emerge?

No policy in particular. More a general worry given the known Tory anti-muslim stance and the lack of care about it shown in the media. I would fear we'd become just like them.

Also, pizza or pasta?

[Ostroeuropa]

The party doesn't need to support "No Paki" signs in order to appeal to voters. I don't see what the fear would be. What actual policy are you concerned would emerge?

No policy in particular. More a general worry given the known Tory anti-muslim stance and the lack of care about it shown in the media. I would fear we'd become just like them.

Also, pizza or pasta?

But like, how. In what sense?

I'd go for Pasta, but I've had too much Pizza lately. Depends on the pasta and the pizza I guess. I could go for a nice cabonarra right now.

[Fartsniffage]

No policy in particular. More a general worry given the known Tory anti-muslim stance and the lack of care about it shown in the media. I would fear we'd become just like them.

Also, pizza or pasta?

But like, how. In what sense?

I'd go for Pasta, but I've had too much Pizza lately. Depends on the pasta and the pizza I guess. I could go for a nice cabonarra right now.

In the sense that if the Labour party were to decide what equality meant on the basis of chasing votes then bad things would happen. I don't know how to explain it better than that. Equality will always upset some people. And I get that your issue is feminism but I think that for most people it would be a racial issue. That would be bad.

And thanks, pasta it is.

[Hirota]

Given Boris Johnson had the most ethnically diverse cabinet in UK history, and given this party still - overwhelmingly - got an increased majority in the commons from that filthy electorate who supposedly looks down on minorities, I'd suggest your talking utter nonsense Fart.

[Fartsniffage]

Given Boris Johnson had the most ethnically diverse cabinet in UK history, and given this party still - overwhelmingly - got the an increased majority in the commons from that filthy electorate who supposedly looks down on minorities, I'd suggest your talking utter nonsense Fart.

....nah.

[Ostroeuropa]

Given Boris Johnson had the most ethnically diverse cabinet in UK history, and given this party still - overwhelmingly - got the an increased majority in the commons from that filthy electorate who supposedly looks down on minorities, I'd suggest your talking utter nonsense Fart.

This tbh.

The British Public are the least racist in Europe when its been studied.

You can make a case we're quite *xenophobic*, but that's actually really common for "High context" cultures like ours, and is frankly not as much of a moral issue as racism, since assimilationist monoculturalism is a legitimate view to hold on how society should be organized.

It's why the UK is fond of the notion of hong kongers coming over but went ballistic about Romanians and Bulgarians.

I would suggest the consensus in the UK is probably "Gatekept multiculturalism" where some cultures are deemed undesirable or are forced to go through a hazing process as they enter the cluster of tolerated cultures where their undesirable aspects are called out and seared away.


This can also explain why White Nationalists were out campaigning for remain, but the public overall decided to abandon the European Project in favor of "We prefer people who speak English and drink Tea thankyou. We'd rather a Hong Konger or a Jamaican than a Frenchman.".