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UK Politics Thread XII: The Lockdown

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Should the UK Take a Harder Line Against Russia on the Basis of the ISC Report?

Yes
56
67%
No
14
17%
No *vote amended by GRU*
13
16%
 
Total votes : 83

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Ostroeuropa
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Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:37 pm

Hirota wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
Because she's going to be asked about it and I don't want a party leader spamming everywhere the notion that it's fine to hit your boyfriend if you are stressed, and I don't want partisan activists to signal boost that idea on her behalf.

I don't care if her boyfriend doesn't care about that happening to him.

That's why the Trump pussy comparison is apt.
I'd add to that. Nobody cared when it happened in 2013 because she wasn't an MP. In 2017 it came to light because she became an MP. Now, with the chance to become party leader (and dictate party policy) it's more relevant. Are the lib dems under her watch going to be a tad more nuanced than what normally happens when politicans are talking about domestic violence?

I'd like to hope so.


I mean there's some opportunity for praxis there if she becomes leader, to force her into adopting more positive DV legislation and so on. But that assumes she wouldn't just double down and start talking about the patriarchy when confronted with these demands, and just start wailing about being harassed and threatened to the media who then make that the story instead of people noting that her DV policy contradicts her own personal experiences.

The question is what sort of person she is, and I'm not really sure. I've seen nothing to indicate she wouldn't be negative on the issue, but if she were positive i'd assume she'd grown as a person and may even support her if it informed her DV policy to be more pro-men.
Last edited by Ostroeuropa on Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
The plague has been worse for women.
It's true that more men are dying from COVID, but that's not exactly a cause for celebration.
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Hirota
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Hirota » Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:43 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:The question is what sort of person she is, and I'm not really sure. I've seen nothing to indicate she wouldn't be negative on the issue, but if she were positive i'd assume she'd grown as a person and may even support her if it informed her DV policy to be more pro-men.
I'm not particularly interested in her being "pro-men" as if it's an either/or proposition the smacks of tribalism - just seek to counter stupid, ham-fisted policies that fail to accurately address the nuances of the issue and in many cases ignore that domestic violence is not a matter of a is always and only violent against b, and b is not always and only a victim of violence by a.
Last edited by Hirota on Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Ostroeuropa
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:48 pm

Hirota wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:The question is what sort of person she is, and I'm not really sure. I've seen nothing to indicate she wouldn't be negative on the issue, but if she were positive i'd assume she'd grown as a person and may even support her if it informed her DV policy to be more pro-men.
I'm not particularly interested in her being "pro-men" as if it's an either/or proposition the smacks of tribalism - just seek to counter stupid, ham-fisted policies that fail to accurately address the nuances of the issue and in many cases ignore that domestic violence is not a matter of a is always and only violent against b, and b is not always and only a victim of violence by a.


That strikes me as semantics, we want the same sort of policy, just different selling of it.
The plague has been worse for women.
It's true that more men are dying from COVID, but that's not exactly a cause for celebration.
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Hirota
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Hirota » Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:52 pm

Souseiseki wrote:hot take: tim farron's position was reasonable and moral given his circumstances and it's only due to the UK's insistence on ideological and cultural purity he got booted. essentially, he was punished for being a wrongthinker.
You either agree entirely with the whole doctrine, or show any sign of noncompliance and you are a heretic and must be hounded. See Trevor Phillips and JK Rowling.
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Souseiseki
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Souseiseki » Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:54 pm

The Archregimancy wrote:And really, knowing that the question was likely coming, he should have worked out an answer before he was asked; he allowed himself to get tied in semantic knots over the issue. So even if we argue that he was unfairly punished for his views, he also didn't show the political skills necessary to run a national political party that's struggling to get across its message after suffering a devastating election result.


hmm. i suppose that's fair. sadly if we've learned anything from the corbyn and johnson sagas it's that being slither out of anything is key.
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New Bremerton
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Founded: Jul 20, 2018
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby New Bremerton » Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:17 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Andsed wrote:I keep hearing about this boyfriend slapping incident. What happened there?


She had an argument with her boyfriend over an extension lead and slapped him.

The careometer for MRAs and people concerned with it hit about a 2/10 given our understanding that an isolated act of violence isn't abuse. Mostly focused on commentary on how the media treated it differently and discussions on relationship stress and so on.

But then she had to go and try and justify it and make out he had it coming, and Jess Phillips and all the other people who shouldn't have a job went to bat for her, and the careometer went to 10/10, never voting for her, you've got enemies now mate.

I don't want some delusional misandrist running the country running her mouth off about how emotionally volatile women are justified in hitting their partners.

I'd also suggest you might hit something akin to BLM there, though feminists are likely to flip out over the comparison.

Nominate someone in the modern era who openly shills for police brutality against black people and you'll get riots and violence.

Nominate Layla Moran, and Lib Dem campaigners are going to be inundated with harassment and threats in a digital riot, and that reaction will be about as justified as if you nominated an open racist.


The police arrested her boyfriend. What the actual fuck.

What an openly and shamelessly misandrist POS, backed and defended by openly misandrist allies such as Jess Phillips. Since when did the Lib Dems become so ridiculously woke? Have they forgotten what liberalism actually stands for?

Speaking of feminist bias and double standards, I have yet to hear the subtly left-leaning, slightly woke, pro-feminist BBC interview just one critic of Black Lives Matter to get the other side of the story that most MSM networks have completely buried bar Fox News. Is there any wonder why MSM is frequently slapped with the label of "fake news"? Because failing to be consistently impartial and unbiased qualifies as such.

Now that coronavirus cases and deaths are falling, Boris now has a unique opportunity to rehabilitate his reputation. Let's hope the Jul. 4 reopening doesn't result in a spike.
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Auristania
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Auristania » Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:46 pm

Now that coronavirus cases and deaths are falling, Boris now has a unique opportunity to rehabilitate his reputation. Let's hope the Jul. 4 reopening doesn't result in a spike.

If I were a Remainer, I would pour extra virus into the water supply just to discredit Boris.

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Salandriagado
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Salandriagado » Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:51 pm

Auristania wrote:
Now that coronavirus cases and deaths are falling, Boris now has a unique opportunity to rehabilitate his reputation. Let's hope the Jul. 4 reopening doesn't result in a spike.

If I were a Remainer, I would pour extra virus into the water supply just to discredit Boris.


What the fuck.
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Fartsniffage
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Postby Fartsniffage » Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:57 pm

Salandriagado wrote:
Auristania wrote:If I were a Remainer, I would pour extra virus into the water supply just to discredit Boris.


What the fuck.


God knows....
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Andsed
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New York Times Democracy

Postby Andsed » Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:33 pm

Auristania wrote:
Now that coronavirus cases and deaths are falling, Boris now has a unique opportunity to rehabilitate his reputation. Let's hope the Jul. 4 reopening doesn't result in a spike.

If I were a Remainer, I would pour extra virus into the water supply just to discredit Boris.

No. Just no in every possible way.
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Chan Island
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Postby Chan Island » Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:06 pm

Auristania wrote:
Now that coronavirus cases and deaths are falling, Boris now has a unique opportunity to rehabilitate his reputation. Let's hope the Jul. 4 reopening doesn't result in a spike.

If I were a Remainer, I would pour extra virus into the water supply just to discredit Boris.


I'm pretty sure the word you're looking for is something like 'terrorist' or 'psychopath', not remainer....
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The New California Republic
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Postby The New California Republic » Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:09 pm

Just ignore it.
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Anarchy

Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:11 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:
Salandriagado wrote:
What the fuck.


God knows....

Someone just gave me a what the fuck moment. That's hard.
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Celritannia
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Postby Celritannia » Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:30 pm

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Celritannia wrote:
Realistically, who will care about it?

The Trump comparison is anything but apt.


People who care about DV against men. Not a majority to be sure, but a sizable enough minority to raise hell.


Oh, I know domestic violence against men happens. I am not disputing that.

However, point to me where this was domestic violence other than a small hard tap. Domestic Violence is built over time, either physically, mentally, or both.

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Greater vakolicci haven
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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:37 pm

Celritannia wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
People who care about DV against men. Not a majority to be sure, but a sizable enough minority to raise hell.


Oh, I know domestic violence against men happens. I am not disputing that.

However, point to me where this was domestic violence other than a small hard tap. Domestic Violence is built over time, either physically, mentally, or both.

Would a man who hit his wife gain the same forgiving response from you, if it only happened once?
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Celritannia
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Celritannia » Wed Jun 24, 2020 7:09 pm

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Celritannia wrote:
Oh, I know domestic violence against men happens. I am not disputing that.

However, point to me where this was domestic violence other than a small hard tap. Domestic Violence is built over time, either physically, mentally, or both.

Would a man who hit his wife gain the same forgiving response from you, if it only happened once?


Depending on the circumstance. I don't agree with hitting anyone for any reason.
But a hard tap is hardly a reason to keep going on about the action that happened a few years ago.

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Purgatio
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Postby Purgatio » Wed Jun 24, 2020 10:50 pm

Celritannia wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Would a man who hit his wife gain the same forgiving response from you, if it only happened once?


Depending on the circumstance. I don't agree with hitting anyone for any reason.
But a hard tap is hardly a reason to keep going on about the action that happened a few years ago.


Lol are we really trying to trivialise an act of domestic violence against an intimate partner as an "action that happened a few years ago"? I mean, this is minimising language at its finest. Calling DV an "action that happened a few years ago" is pretty on par with Brock Turner's father's infamous "20 minutes of action" quote.

Phrasing matters. DV against intimate partners is SERIOUS, and should be taken seriously. Calling it an "action that happened a few years ago" is such a trivialising characterisation of the impact it has on victims.
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An Alan Smithee Nation
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Postby An Alan Smithee Nation » Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:34 pm

I'm honestly surprised someone senior in the party didn't have a quiet word telling her to put the party before her personal ambitions. Though I suppose they could have and were ignored.
Last edited by An Alan Smithee Nation on Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Greater vakolicci haven
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Anarchy

Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:44 pm

Purgatio wrote:
Celritannia wrote:
Depending on the circumstance. I don't agree with hitting anyone for any reason.
But a hard tap is hardly a reason to keep going on about the action that happened a few years ago.


Lol are we really trying to trivialise an act of domestic violence against an intimate partner as an "action that happened a few years ago"? I mean, this is minimising language at its finest. Calling DV an "action that happened a few years ago" is pretty on par with Brock Turner's father's infamous "20 minutes of action" quote.

Phrasing matters. DV against intimate partners is SERIOUS, and should be taken seriously. Calling it an "action that happened a few years ago" is such a trivialising characterisation of the impact it has on victims.

And it's not like the people who are most likely to trivialise dv are the victims of dv, especially those victims of dv from powerful people who can make life very unpleasant for them if they tell all. It's quite possible it wasn't one single incident.
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“I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” - Thomas Jefferson
“Silent acquiescence in the face of tyranny is no better than outright agreement." - C.J. Redwine
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." - Jeff Cooper

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An Alan Smithee Nation
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Postby An Alan Smithee Nation » Wed Jun 24, 2020 11:51 pm

Salandriagado wrote:
An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:
Somehow I doubt pubs are registered as data handlers for the purposes of the Data Protection Act.


You don't need to be registered: if you control personal data, then you are a data controller for DPA purposes (though they might instead be data processors if they're just acting as proxies for the government, not sure which framework they're using).


It's a good decade since I was a data controller and had to do DPA registrations, so I suspect I have forgotten a lot and things will have changed with the 2018 Act. My hazy recollection was that collecting and processing data then transferring it to someone else (the government) required registration.
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Hirota
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Hirota » Thu Jun 25, 2020 1:50 am

Ostroeuropa wrote:
Hirota wrote:I'm not particularly interested in her being "pro-men" as if it's an either/or proposition the smacks of tribalism - just seek to counter stupid, ham-fisted policies that fail to accurately address the nuances of the issue and in many cases ignore that domestic violence is not a matter of a is always and only violent against b, and b is not always and only a victim of violence by a.


That strikes me as semantics, we want the same sort of policy, just different selling of it.
<shrugs> What you call semantics I call spin. Or optics, take your pick. If it helps improve things (and if they want to look good whilst doing it) then I'm happy either way.


Salandriagado wrote:
Souseiseki wrote:
it's legit hard to tell whether priti is a legit horrible person or just a pathetic patsy who goes along with whatever the party tells her (we know in this government people are promoted based on loyalty and meekishness not skill or conviction) and got dumped into the mr. nasty office and now feels she needs to be a raving authoritarian minority slapping dickhead to play the part

e: that's not a political nickname but a commentary on how home secretaries are required to adopt a certain public persona as part of their role but i'm not going to spend an excessive amount of time getting into it unless i have to


I noticed in one of the coronavirus briefings that she seems to be literally incapable of saying the word "sorry". She was using some tortured phrasing to avoid saying "Sorry, could you repeat that".
I wondered why politicans in general don't apologise so I went looking. It appears that evidence suggests that it makes things worse.

In Priti Patels case in particular she already has enough people trying to take her down for not conforming to their preconceptions, they wouldn't be satisfied with an apology - they'd see it as an opportunity to take her down.


Interesting projections from the IMF yesterday about economic growth in a possible post covid-19 world.
Image

Obviously economic projections are vaguely comparable to reading tea leaves, but the IMF tends to be pretty good at it. They predict UK and Eurozone economies to shrink by roughly the same amount (with individual countries doing better and worse), and then growth in the UK in 2021 to slightly overtake Eurozone growth (again, with individual countries doing better and worse). Thats counting Brexit in those numbers.

The big winners seem to be china though, no shrinkage for 2020 and continued growth in 2021.
Last edited by Hirota on Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:42 am, edited 3 times in total.
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An Alan Smithee Nation
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Postby An Alan Smithee Nation » Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:32 am

Letting Mitie and Interserve merge sounds like a bad idea. The government outsourcing field is too narrow as it is.

[EDIT] So what is kicking off in South London? 22 police injured in clashes with a large crowd. Sounds like something that could escalate into an eighties style riot.
Last edited by An Alan Smithee Nation on Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Agarntrop
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Postby Agarntrop » Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:52 am

Hirota wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
That strikes me as semantics, we want the same sort of policy, just different selling of it.
<shrugs> What you call semantics I call spin. Or optics, take your pick. If it helps improve things (and if they want to look good whilst doing it) then I'm happy either way.


Salandriagado wrote:
I noticed in one of the coronavirus briefings that she seems to be literally incapable of saying the word "sorry". She was using some tortured phrasing to avoid saying "Sorry, could you repeat that".
I wondered why politicans in general don't apologise so I went looking. It appears that evidence suggests that it makes things worse.

In Priti Patels case in particular she already has enough people trying to take her down for not conforming to their preconceptions, they wouldn't be satisfied with an apology - they'd see it as an opportunity to take her down.


Interesting projections from the IMF yesterday about economic growth in a possible post covid-19 world.
Image

Obviously economic projections are vaguely comparable to reading tea leaves, but the IMF tends to be pretty good at it. They predict UK and Eurozone economies to shrink by roughly the same amount (with individual countries doing better and worse), and then growth in the UK in 2021 to slightly overtake Eurozone growth (again, with individual countries doing better and worse). Thats counting Brexit in those numbers.

The big winners seem to be china though, no shrinkage for 2020 and continued growth in 2021.

Not with a no deal, which will happen.

We have been worst affected by the corona recession, and now we are also going to get a second, more prolonged one while everywhere else recovers, fucking great (/s).
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Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:53 am

An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:Letting Mitie and Interserve merge sounds like a bad idea. The government outsourcing field is too narrow as it is.

[EDIT] So what is kicking off in South London? 22 police injured in clashes with a large crowd. Sounds like something that could escalate into an eighties style riot.

Sounds like the police decided to shut down a party, and people fought back.
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“Silent acquiescence in the face of tyranny is no better than outright agreement." - C.J. Redwine
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." - Jeff Cooper

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Ostroeuropa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 54468
Founded: Jun 14, 2006
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Ostroeuropa » Thu Jun 25, 2020 2:56 am

Celritannia wrote:
Ostroeuropa wrote:
People who care about DV against men. Not a majority to be sure, but a sizable enough minority to raise hell.


Oh, I know domestic violence against men happens. I am not disputing that.

However, point to me where this was domestic violence other than a small hard tap. Domestic Violence is built over time, either physically, mentally, or both.


You're failing to understand the problem, which is the discussion of it, not the act itself.
The plague has been worse for women.
It's true that more men are dying from COVID, but that's not exactly a cause for celebration.
https://i.redd.it/oqy5p3p1ayv41.png

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