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UK Politics Thread XII: The Lockdown

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Should the UK Take a Harder Line Against Russia on the Basis of the ISC Report?

Yes
56
67%
No
14
17%
No *vote amended by GRU*
13
16%
 
Total votes : 83

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The New California Republic
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 28717
Founded: Jun 06, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:40 pm

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:Lockdown prevented around half a million deaths. Very weird that you'd be proud of a country with an extra half million corpses in it...

I could only be proud of a free country. That means that I can't have national pride at the moment.

Image
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

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Souseiseki
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Posts: 19101
Founded: Apr 12, 2012
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Souseiseki » Tue Jun 23, 2020 5:59 pm

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:Lockdown prevented around half a million deaths. Very weird that you'd be proud of a country with an extra half million corpses in it...

I could only be proud of a free country. That means that I can't have national pride at the moment.


name one (1) year where england was actually a free country
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Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
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Posts: 13809
Founded: Jun 28, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Tue Jun 23, 2020 7:06 pm

Souseiseki wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:I could only be proud of a free country. That means that I can't have national pride at the moment.


name one (1) year where england was actually a free country

67 million BCE. When there were no humans at all obviously.

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Vassenor
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 52857
Founded: Nov 11, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Vassenor » Wed Jun 24, 2020 12:18 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:Lockdown prevented around half a million deaths. Very weird that you'd be proud of a country with an extra half million corpses in it...

I could only be proud of a free country. That means that I can't have national pride at the moment.


Hard to be proud when you're dying of something that could've been prevented if you'd not been so damn pig headed about it.
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An Alan Smithee Nation
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Posts: 5719
Founded: Apr 18, 2018
New York Times Democracy

Postby An Alan Smithee Nation » Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:20 am

Councils to get £105m more to help prevent rough sleeping returning to the streets


BBC commits £100m to increasing diversity on TV

The similar numbers make me wonder if we have our priorities right.
Yeah I know the BBC isn't the government.
I'm more just thinking the government is squandering a once in a lifetime opportunity to tackle rough sleeping.
Everything is intertwinkled

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Greater vakolicci haven
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Posts: 18660
Founded: May 09, 2014
Anarchy

Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:30 am

Souseiseki wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:I could only be proud of a free country. That means that I can't have national pride at the moment.


name one (1) year where england was actually a free country

Name one (1) time when I have ever expressed national pride. Unless your country provides maximum freedoms, national pride is very silly.
Join the rejected realms and never fear rejection again
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“I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” - Thomas Jefferson
“Silent acquiescence in the face of tyranny is no better than outright agreement." - C.J. Redwine
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." - Jeff Cooper

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Purgatio
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Posts: 6309
Founded: May 18, 2018
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Purgatio » Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:45 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Souseiseki wrote:
name one (1) year where england was actually a free country

Name one (1) time when I have ever expressed national pride. Unless your country provides maximum freedoms, national pride is very silly.


Lmao what are "maximum freedoms"? What you mean to say is "no lockdowns, quaratines, stay-at-home, social distancing or any reasonable measures in response to a global pandemic", right?

Just say what you mean, dude. No need for obfuscating euphemisms here.
An Introduction to Purgatio

Results
Work, Liberty, Order
Essentialism - 57%
Punitive Justice - 93%
Progressivism - 71%
Nationalism - 64%
Capitalism - 100%
Laissez-faire - 100%
Productivism - 93%
Reformism - 86%
Other Values - Monarchism

Results
Fanatic Unitary - 94%
Fanatic Authoritarian - 94%
Moderate Isolationist - 62%
Militarist - 78%
Extreme Security - 86%
Fanatic Markets - 98%
Moderate Religious - 62%
Progressive - 58%
Fanatic Assimilationist - 90%

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Greater vakolicci haven
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Posts: 18660
Founded: May 09, 2014
Anarchy

Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:49 am

Purgatio wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Name one (1) time when I have ever expressed national pride. Unless your country provides maximum freedoms, national pride is very silly.


Lmao what are "maximum freedoms"? What you mean to say is "no lockdowns, quaratines, stay-at-home, social distancing or any reasonable measures in response to a global pandemic", right?

Just say what you mean, dude. No need for obfuscating euphemisms here.

But it doesn't just extend to covid. I don't support restrictions on drugs, on prostitution, on firearms, on imigration, and I think prisons of any kind are evil. You know what maximum freedoms mean in my case.
Join the rejected realms and never fear rejection again
NSG virtual happy hour this Saturday: join us on zoom, what could possibly go wrong?
“I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” - Thomas Jefferson
“Silent acquiescence in the face of tyranny is no better than outright agreement." - C.J. Redwine
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." - Jeff Cooper

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Purgatio
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Posts: 6309
Founded: May 18, 2018
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Purgatio » Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:51 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Purgatio wrote:
Lmao what are "maximum freedoms"? What you mean to say is "no lockdowns, quaratines, stay-at-home, social distancing or any reasonable measures in response to a global pandemic", right?

Just say what you mean, dude. No need for obfuscating euphemisms here.

But it doesn't just extend to covid. I don't support restrictions on drugs, on prostitution, on firearms, on imigration, and I think prisons of any kind are evil. You know what maximum freedoms mean in my case.


All I'm seeing is your support for "freedom" is pretty narrow and selective. Like, you support the freedom to walk around public spaces, infecting others, not wearing a mask, worsening a health crisis. You don't really support the freedom for innocent people to not get sick and die from said illness. I find that interesting.
An Introduction to Purgatio

Results
Work, Liberty, Order
Essentialism - 57%
Punitive Justice - 93%
Progressivism - 71%
Nationalism - 64%
Capitalism - 100%
Laissez-faire - 100%
Productivism - 93%
Reformism - 86%
Other Values - Monarchism

Results
Fanatic Unitary - 94%
Fanatic Authoritarian - 94%
Moderate Isolationist - 62%
Militarist - 78%
Extreme Security - 86%
Fanatic Markets - 98%
Moderate Religious - 62%
Progressive - 58%
Fanatic Assimilationist - 90%

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Greater vakolicci haven
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18660
Founded: May 09, 2014
Anarchy

Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:55 am

Purgatio wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:But it doesn't just extend to covid. I don't support restrictions on drugs, on prostitution, on firearms, on imigration, and I think prisons of any kind are evil. You know what maximum freedoms mean in my case.


All I'm seeing is your support for "freedom" is pretty narrow and selective. Like, you support the freedom to walk around public spaces, infecting others, not wearing a mask, worsening a health crisis. You don't really support the freedom for innocent people to not get sick and die from said illness. I find that interesting.

I think that the fact you can get sick from illnesses, air pollution, traffic accidents etc is just a bi-product of living around other people.
Join the rejected realms and never fear rejection again
NSG virtual happy hour this Saturday: join us on zoom, what could possibly go wrong?
“I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” - Thomas Jefferson
“Silent acquiescence in the face of tyranny is no better than outright agreement." - C.J. Redwine
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." - Jeff Cooper

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Purgatio
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Posts: 6309
Founded: May 18, 2018
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Purgatio » Wed Jun 24, 2020 1:56 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Purgatio wrote:
All I'm seeing is your support for "freedom" is pretty narrow and selective. Like, you support the freedom to walk around public spaces, infecting others, not wearing a mask, worsening a health crisis. You don't really support the freedom for innocent people to not get sick and die from said illness. I find that interesting.

I think that the fact you can get sick from illnesses, air pollution, traffic accidents etc is just a bi-product of living around other people.


Lol you could say the exact same thing about assault, battery, homicides, sexual harassment etc.

"Just put up with it, you're living around other people".

Recklessly infecting other people with a potentially-deadly illness is, morally, the same as battery. If you consider that "freedom", then it sounds like you really don't believe in basic concepts like personhood or bodily integrity or self-ownership.
An Introduction to Purgatio

Results
Work, Liberty, Order
Essentialism - 57%
Punitive Justice - 93%
Progressivism - 71%
Nationalism - 64%
Capitalism - 100%
Laissez-faire - 100%
Productivism - 93%
Reformism - 86%
Other Values - Monarchism

Results
Fanatic Unitary - 94%
Fanatic Authoritarian - 94%
Moderate Isolationist - 62%
Militarist - 78%
Extreme Security - 86%
Fanatic Markets - 98%
Moderate Religious - 62%
Progressive - 58%
Fanatic Assimilationist - 90%

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Greater vakolicci haven
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18660
Founded: May 09, 2014
Anarchy

Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:07 am

Purgatio wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:I think that the fact you can get sick from illnesses, air pollution, traffic accidents etc is just a bi-product of living around other people.


Lol you could say the exact same thing about assault, battery, homicides, sexual harassment etc.

"Just put up with it, you're living around other people".

Recklessly infecting other people with a potentially-deadly illness is, morally, the same as battery. If you consider that "freedom", then it sounds like you really don't believe in basic concepts like personhood or bodily integrity or self-ownership.

I don't see them as being the same at all. First off, you can happily go around doing your own thing without any knowledge of it, so it shouldn't affect your moral compass. In addition, there's obviously no proveable intent, it's a crime of recklessness at the very most.
Join the rejected realms and never fear rejection again
NSG virtual happy hour this Saturday: join us on zoom, what could possibly go wrong?
“I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” - Thomas Jefferson
“Silent acquiescence in the face of tyranny is no better than outright agreement." - C.J. Redwine
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." - Jeff Cooper

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Purgatio
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Posts: 6309
Founded: May 18, 2018
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Purgatio » Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:09 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Purgatio wrote:
Lol you could say the exact same thing about assault, battery, homicides, sexual harassment etc.

"Just put up with it, you're living around other people".

Recklessly infecting other people with a potentially-deadly illness is, morally, the same as battery. If you consider that "freedom", then it sounds like you really don't believe in basic concepts like personhood or bodily integrity or self-ownership.

I don't see them as being the same at all. First off, you can happily go around doing your own thing without any knowledge of it, so it shouldn't affect your moral compass. In addition, there's obviously no proveable intent, it's a crime of recklessness at the very most.


.....which is a thing. Come on, you're a law student. You should know that most OAPA crimes are crimes of recklessness, not intent.

So what's your point? "It's a crime of recklessness at the very most", okay and so? That makes reckless infection of other's with a disease morally okay? Get real.
An Introduction to Purgatio

Results
Work, Liberty, Order
Essentialism - 57%
Punitive Justice - 93%
Progressivism - 71%
Nationalism - 64%
Capitalism - 100%
Laissez-faire - 100%
Productivism - 93%
Reformism - 86%
Other Values - Monarchism

Results
Fanatic Unitary - 94%
Fanatic Authoritarian - 94%
Moderate Isolationist - 62%
Militarist - 78%
Extreme Security - 86%
Fanatic Markets - 98%
Moderate Religious - 62%
Progressive - 58%
Fanatic Assimilationist - 90%

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The Notorious Mad Jack
Diplomat
 
Posts: 533
Founded: Nov 05, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby The Notorious Mad Jack » Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:18 am

Purgatio wrote: Come on, you're a law student.

This is what worries me. GVH may one day be in a position to put some of his insane ideas into practice.
Last edited by The Notorious Mad Jack on Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
Totally not MadJack, though I hear he's incredibly smart and handsome.

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Purgatio
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6309
Founded: May 18, 2018
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Purgatio » Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:38 am

The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:
Purgatio wrote: Come on, you're a law student.

This is what worries me. GVH may one day be in a position to put some of his insane ideas into practice.


I mean he could argue these things before a court all he wants. It'll only work if many judges consistently accept it and allow the common law to evolve in that direction that GVH wants.
An Introduction to Purgatio

Results
Work, Liberty, Order
Essentialism - 57%
Punitive Justice - 93%
Progressivism - 71%
Nationalism - 64%
Capitalism - 100%
Laissez-faire - 100%
Productivism - 93%
Reformism - 86%
Other Values - Monarchism

Results
Fanatic Unitary - 94%
Fanatic Authoritarian - 94%
Moderate Isolationist - 62%
Militarist - 78%
Extreme Security - 86%
Fanatic Markets - 98%
Moderate Religious - 62%
Progressive - 58%
Fanatic Assimilationist - 90%

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Greater vakolicci haven
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 18660
Founded: May 09, 2014
Anarchy

Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Wed Jun 24, 2020 2:52 am

Purgatio wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:I don't see them as being the same at all. First off, you can happily go around doing your own thing without any knowledge of it, so it shouldn't affect your moral compass. In addition, there's obviously no proveable intent, it's a crime of recklessness at the very most.


.....which is a thing. Come on, you're a law student. You should know that most OAPA crimes are crimes of recklessness, not intent.

So what's your point? "It's a crime of recklessness at the very most", okay and so? That makes reckless infection of other's with a disease morally okay? Get real.

Morals don't really come into it.
If I knew I had it, I probably wouldn't go out and infect everybody. It turns out I have had it without showing symptoms, either that or antibody tests are based on random number generators.
Do you believe lockdowns are at all proportionate, given the low mortality rate?
Join the rejected realms and never fear rejection again
NSG virtual happy hour this Saturday: join us on zoom, what could possibly go wrong?
“I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” - Thomas Jefferson
“Silent acquiescence in the face of tyranny is no better than outright agreement." - C.J. Redwine
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." - Jeff Cooper

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Purgatio
Negotiator
 
Posts: 6309
Founded: May 18, 2018
Compulsory Consumerist State

Postby Purgatio » Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:00 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Purgatio wrote:
.....which is a thing. Come on, you're a law student. You should know that most OAPA crimes are crimes of recklessness, not intent.

So what's your point? "It's a crime of recklessness at the very most", okay and so? That makes reckless infection of other's with a disease morally okay? Get real.

Morals don't really come into it.
If I knew I had it, I probably wouldn't go out and infect everybody. It turns out I have had it without showing symptoms, either that or antibody tests are based on random number generators.
Do you believe lockdowns are at all proportionate, given the low mortality rate?


You're literally ignoring the argument. Most offences against the person are offences of recklessness, not intent. Assault. Battery. Malicious wounding. Assault occasioning ABH. The mens rea for all of these is recklessness. Because morally, its still a terrible thing to do to knowingly expose another person to a risk of physical injury to their person.

A good person, a virtuous person, a person who isn't completely selfish, understands that its not only wrong when you intentionally injure someone. Its also wrong to unintentionally but recklessly injure another person. Thats exactly what you're doing when you're going around infecting someone with a virus because you're not taking basic precautions.
An Introduction to Purgatio

Results
Work, Liberty, Order
Essentialism - 57%
Punitive Justice - 93%
Progressivism - 71%
Nationalism - 64%
Capitalism - 100%
Laissez-faire - 100%
Productivism - 93%
Reformism - 86%
Other Values - Monarchism

Results
Fanatic Unitary - 94%
Fanatic Authoritarian - 94%
Moderate Isolationist - 62%
Militarist - 78%
Extreme Security - 86%
Fanatic Markets - 98%
Moderate Religious - 62%
Progressive - 58%
Fanatic Assimilationist - 90%

User avatar
The Huskar Social Union
Post Czar
 
Posts: 45032
Founded: Apr 04, 2012
Left-wing Utopia

Postby The Huskar Social Union » Wed Jun 24, 2020 3:26 am

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:Lockdown prevented around half a million deaths. Very weird that you'd be proud of a country with an extra half million corpses in it...

I could only be proud of a free country. That means that I can't have national pride at the moment.

lmao
Im Irish and live in Belfast Im a Leftwinger and im an Atheist

‘I never thought in terms of being a leader. I thought very simply in terms of helping people’ - John Hume

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An Alan Smithee Nation
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Posts: 5719
Founded: Apr 18, 2018
New York Times Democracy

Postby An Alan Smithee Nation » Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:17 am

Are people going to give their real name and address when asked when going in to a pub or restaurant?

I think quite a lot will lie.
Everything is intertwinkled

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The Blaatschapen
Retired Moderator
 
Posts: 55814
Founded: Antiquity
Anarchy

Postby The Blaatschapen » Wed Jun 24, 2020 4:30 am

An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:Are people going to give their real name and address when asked when going in to a pub or restaurant?

I think quite a lot will lie.


Address? No. Email and name, yes. Then again, the places I went to where I had to do that, I frequent on a regular basis, so they already know my name :P

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The New California Republic
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 28717
Founded: Jun 06, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:08 am

An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:Are people going to give their real name and address when asked when going in to a pub or restaurant?

I think quite a lot will lie.

And surely doing such a thing will necessitate an increase in contact between people that otherwise wouldn't happen, for staff to ask them in the first place? :eyebrow:
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

User avatar
An Alan Smithee Nation
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5719
Founded: Apr 18, 2018
New York Times Democracy

Postby An Alan Smithee Nation » Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:12 am

The New California Republic wrote:
An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:Are people going to give their real name and address when asked when going in to a pub or restaurant?

I think quite a lot will lie.

And surely doing such a thing will necessitate an increase in contact between people that otherwise wouldn't happen, for staff to ask them in the first place? :eyebrow:


Perhaps you are supposed to shout it from 1m plus away... obviously nobody would have anything to worry about from strangers getting hold of their personal details.
Everything is intertwinkled

User avatar
The New California Republic
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 28717
Founded: Jun 06, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:13 am

An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:
The New California Republic wrote:And surely doing such a thing will necessitate an increase in contact between people that otherwise wouldn't happen, for staff to ask them in the first place? :eyebrow:


Perhaps you are supposed to shout it from 1m plus away... obviously nobody would have anything to worry about from strangers getting hold of their personal details.

:lol2:
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

User avatar
An Alan Smithee Nation
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5719
Founded: Apr 18, 2018
New York Times Democracy

Postby An Alan Smithee Nation » Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:19 am

The New California Republic wrote:
An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:
Perhaps you are supposed to shout it from 1m plus away... obviously nobody would have anything to worry about from strangers getting hold of their personal details.

:lol2:


Somehow I doubt pubs are registered as data handlers for the purposes of the Data Protection Act.
Everything is intertwinkled

User avatar
The New California Republic
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 28717
Founded: Jun 06, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Wed Jun 24, 2020 6:23 am

An Alan Smithee Nation wrote:
The New California Republic wrote: :lol2:


Somehow I doubt pubs are registered as data handlers for the purposes of the Data Protection Act.

Ironically in the past I have tried handing out CVs and cover letters for jobs, and the Manager has flatly refused, citing that they cannot hold info on me because of the Data Protection Act, yet giving many of the same deets to a barman is fine.

The mind boggles.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

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