UK Politics Thread XII: The Lockdown

[The New California Republic]

A good public service. Without statues, bird poop would be everywhere.

If Bristol now turns into a giant ball of bird poop, we know the reason.

I'd make some snarky comment about it already being bird poop but alas I've not had the pleasure of visiting.

Barring the (now former) slaver statue, Bristol isn't that bad.

[Kyapo]

TV did the same thing when protests were televised. The level of technology does not matter if the injustices have been seen and are then protested about. Yes, the internet is faster, but it seemed as if you were complaining about the online culture as a whole, rather than the speed in which these stories are received.

Again, the statue can be replaced if the council wants it to be, the lives of those lost by wrongful shootings cannot. It's a petty thing to argue about in the grand scheme of things tbh.

Again, the systematic racism in the UK as much as there is in the US. While it is not as prevalent in the UK, but it still happens and it should be targeted nonetheless. Whether is started in the US or not does not matter. What matters is that it is addressed.

And what about the Rebellion v Empire in Star Wars? That has a greater effect on people due to it's impact and wide following than any modern day YA novel.
That's just as silly as to say "video games cause violence".

I'm complaining about online culture as a whole, yes, an integral (and corrosive) part of which is its speed. This is not how we are meant to live. I've never known a world without the ubiquity of television so I can't really feel its effect as keenly as I can that of the internet, but it's a (vast) difference of degree rather than of kind, I agree.

I'm not sure why you're framing this as though we have to choose between the destruction of historic monuments and ending wrongful shootings? It's not an either/or. I entirely appreciate legitimate concerns with the justice system, I'm just rejecting this deranged religious revival movement.

Ofc systemic racism exists in the UK, but it's a nonsense to equate it with that experienced in America. My problem with the Americanisation of our national conversation isn't that I object to such issues being raised - it's based on the simple fact that American 'solutions' to American problems within their specific national context will do nothing to help people over here given that there is a different context, no matter how much people want to deny that. In fact, such ideology seems likely to me to exacerbate what racial tension there is in the UK and fuck up further our already strained communities which have already had to deal with so much.

Again I can only confidently speak to the effects of popular media on my generation. YA has had an appreciable effect from where I'm sitting; 'Star Wars' etc. is before our time. Also video games probably do contribute to violence but (allow me the Americanism) 'y'all ain't ready for that conversation.'

USA cultural colonialism has been erroding us for a while now. It's one of the reasons that leaving the EU was in my opinion a mistake. I don't believe that the UK will be strong enough to resist the corrosive pull of the USA. EU isn't great, the US isn't either, go it on our own yeah right that was never happening.

As for statues, will the British pull down ones of vikings who raped, murdered and enslaved whole parts of the UK? Or Roman statues,I mean they made 18thC slavery look like a bloody tea party.

[The Blaatschapen]

A good public service. Without statues, bird poop would be everywhere.

If Bristol now turns into a giant ball of bird poop, we know the reason.

I'd make some snarky comment about it already being bird poop but alas I've not had the pleasure of visiting.

I was setting it up for someone to make that snarky comment

[The Blaatschapen]

I'm complaining about online culture as a whole, yes, an integral (and corrosive) part of which is its speed. This is not how we are meant to live. I've never known a world without the ubiquity of television so I can't really feel its effect as keenly as I can that of the internet, but it's a (vast) difference of degree rather than of kind, I agree.

I'm not sure why you're framing this as though we have to choose between the destruction of historic monuments and ending wrongful shootings? It's not an either/or. I entirely appreciate legitimate concerns with the justice system, I'm just rejecting this deranged religious revival movement.

Ofc systemic racism exists in the UK, but it's a nonsense to equate it with that experienced in America. My problem with the Americanisation of our national conversation isn't that I object to such issues being raised - it's based on the simple fact that American 'solutions' to American problems within their specific national context will do nothing to help people over here given that there is a different context, no matter how much people want to deny that. In fact, such ideology seems likely to me to exacerbate what racial tension there is in the UK and fuck up further our already strained communities which have already had to deal with so much.

Again I can only confidently speak to the effects of popular media on my generation. YA has had an appreciable effect from where I'm sitting; 'Star Wars' etc. is before our time. Also video games probably do contribute to violence but (allow me the Americanism) 'y'all ain't ready for that conversation.'

USA cultural colonialism has been erroding us for a while now. It's one of the reasons that leaving the EU was in my opinion a mistake. I don't believe that the UK will be strong enough to resist the corrosive pull of the USA. EU isn't great, the US isn't either, go it on our own yeah right that was never happening.

As for statues, will the British pull down ones of vikings who raped, murdered and enslaved whole parts of the UK? Or Roman statues,I mean they made 18thC slavery look like a bloody tea party.

To be fair, tea parties, like statues, also tend to end up in the harbour.

[Thanatttynia]

I'm complaining about online culture as a whole, yes, an integral (and corrosive) part of which is its speed. This is not how we are meant to live. I've never known a world without the ubiquity of television so I can't really feel its effect as keenly as I can that of the internet, but it's a (vast) difference of degree rather than of kind, I agree.

I'm not sure why you're framing this as though we have to choose between the destruction of historic monuments and ending wrongful shootings? It's not an either/or. I entirely appreciate legitimate concerns with the justice system, I'm just rejecting this deranged religious revival movement.

Ofc systemic racism exists in the UK, but it's a nonsense to equate it with that experienced in America. My problem with the Americanisation of our national conversation isn't that I object to such issues being raised - it's based on the simple fact that American 'solutions' to American problems within their specific national context will do nothing to help people over here given that there is a different context, no matter how much people want to deny that. In fact, such ideology seems likely to me to exacerbate what racial tension there is in the UK and fuck up further our already strained communities which have already had to deal with so much.

Again I can only confidently speak to the effects of popular media on my generation. YA has had an appreciable effect from where I'm sitting; 'Star Wars' etc. is before our time. Also video games probably do contribute to violence but (allow me the Americanism) 'y'all ain't ready for that conversation.'

USA cultural colonialism has been erroding us for a while now. It's one of the reasons that leaving the EU was in my opinion a mistake. I don't believe that the UK will be strong enough to resist the corrosive pull of the USA. EU isn't great, the US isn't either, go it on our own yeah right that was never happening.

As for statues, will the British pull down ones of vikings who raped, murdered and enslaved whole parts of the UK? Or Roman statues,I mean they made 18thC slavery look like a bloody tea party.

On the whole I agree re Brexit, but given that is just another front of the culture war I think we'd better accept it and move on. EU as a political project looks increasingly shaky every day so perhaps we really can forge a new close relationship with Europe outside of it, though that would require our political class refraining from sacrificing our interests on the altar of globalism and I'm not sure they can do such a thing.

Re statues you should prob get with the programme: world history began in 1619, Anglos are uniquely evil, nuance is the cardinal sin, etc., etc.

[Chan Island]

What good is there in destroying statues?
Through a modern lens we can of course say the actions of Colston were terrible, however tearing down a statue because it doesn't agree with our modern viewpoint seems wasteful, especially as nothing is being learned by it. Let's face it, how many people involved in that action even knew who the statue depicted was beyond being told on a twitter post? And after it was torn down, how many are really even going to read up on the history of Bristol, Colston or slavery?
And why throw it in a harbour? If they were that pissed off then why not have it melted down and made into something else, it's just stupid vandalism at this point.

We can't escape our history, it's written in blood and horrible deeds just as much as flowery poetry and tales of heroes. Scars of history must be borne or else we'll forget what caused them.

While I don't have any stake in this whole Bristol statue thing, this post needs to be addressed.

Statues are a symbol of both who has power and what values the society has, that's why we put them in prominent places. The Colston statue for example, from what I understand, was placed in the city centre, on a street also named after him to boot. Likewise destroying them is a symbol of rejecting that ideology. Would you say the same thing you are about when the Iraqis destroyed Saddam Hussein statues, or when the people of the Eastern bloc destroyed Lenin monuments?

There's a vast difference between knowing history and celebrating it. Having one up is an inherent celebration of those values, and it's still perfectly easy to learn history without them. I've never seen a statue of countless historical figures in my entire life yet know who they were; Mao, Chamberlain, Mother Theresa, Einstein, Mr Rogers, Hitler, Ghandi... We have innumerable other ways of learning about history and the personalities of those who affect it greatly.

I'd also take issue about the idea that nothing was learned from this. I had no idea who Colston was before this event, and I don't think I'm the only one in that camp. I'd be surprised if the answer wasn't at least in the thousands in fact. Not only that, it's caused me to learn all about Bristol's multiple local campaigns to remove it through proper means, including petitions that have garnered tens of thousands of signatures (in a city of 700k). This also leads me to think it's unlikely the protesters didn't know anything about the man when they tore it down too. Why do you think they targeted that one instead of the nearby statue of Neptune, or the one of 16th century theologian William Tyndale?

Oh, and this idea that somehow the mob could casually bring a smelter with them is beyond absurd. Again, throwing the thing into a harbour is a symbol of rejecting what he stood for, and a damn good photo-op to boot. And, again, there had been multiple peaceful campaigns to remove it before including petitions. Hell, even the mayor is saying he doesn't mind it going. It can always be fished out and melted down later.

History is messy and often horrible, yes. But that doesn't mean we should celebrate or literally put on a pedestal those who committed those acts. Nor does that mean that we should keep them there when we later find out their dark secrets. Britain has an enormous wealth of celebration-worthy characters in its fabulous history. We don't have to only choose between having statues of slave traders and no statues.

Not taking a particular stance here, just explaining you need better arguments.

[Attancia]

Can someone tell me if Starmer is doing a good job so far?

Not bad so far. He's had a tough time with the party still deciding that the only opposition that really matters is the opposition in their own ranks, instead of uniting behind their leader. But he's being constructive with Covid-19 dominating everything.

Despite being a Conservative myself, I've seen Starmer masterfully defeat Boris during PMQs (amongst other things). While Boris himself is quite sharp, Kier often holds the edge over him.

[Kyapo]

I'd say Starmer is doing well so far. I'm not a labour voter, but I can see that he is going to be better at holding the tory feet to the fire better than Corbyn. I hope to see him stopping Boris sneaking stuff past us while virus and protest takes our attention.

[Celritannia]

TV did the same thing when protests were televised. The level of technology does not matter if the injustices have been seen and are then protested about. Yes, the internet is faster, but it seemed as if you were complaining about the online culture as a whole, rather than the speed in which these stories are received.

Again, the statue can be replaced if the council wants it to be, the lives of those lost by wrongful shootings cannot. It's a petty thing to argue about in the grand scheme of things tbh.

Again, the systematic racism in the UK as much as there is in the US. While it is not as prevalent in the UK, but it still happens and it should be targeted nonetheless. Whether is started in the US or not does not matter. What matters is that it is addressed.

And what about the Rebellion v Empire in Star Wars? That has a greater effect on people due to it's impact and wide following than any modern day YA novel.
That's just as silly as to say "video games cause violence".

I'm complaining about online culture as a whole, yes, an integral (and corrosive) part of which is its speed. This is not how we are meant to live. I've never known a world without the ubiquity of television so I can't really feel its effect as keenly as I can that of the internet, but it's a (vast) difference of degree rather than of kind, I agree.

I'm not sure why you're framing this as though we have to choose between the destruction of historic monuments and ending wrongful shootings? It's not an either/or. I entirely appreciate legitimate concerns with the justice system, I'm just rejecting this deranged religious revival movement.

Ofc systemic racism exists in the UK, but it's a nonsense to equate it with that experienced in America. My problem with the Americanisation of our national conversation isn't that I object to such issues being raised - it's based on the simple fact that American 'solutions' to American problems within their specific national context will do nothing to help people over here given that there is a different context, no matter how much people want to deny that. In fact, such ideology seems likely to me to exacerbate what racial tension there is in the UK and fuck up further our already strained communities which have already had to deal with so much.

Again I can only confidently speak to the effects of popular media on my generation. YA has had an appreciable effect from where I'm sitting; 'Star Wars' etc. is before our time. Also video games probably do contribute to violence but (allow me the Americanism) 'y'all ain't ready for that conversation.'

So are memes damaging to modern culture now?

I am also not commending nor condoning what the protesters did. What's done is done. It was one specific statue torn down due to the history of the individual. I highly doubt it will lead to further statues being pulled down, as you seem to think it will.

It's not about Americanisation, it's about the problems that have happened.
While it may be a situation in America, it's a concern people have over here as a way to show the US government that the British people are also against what the US is doing. Should all countries just remain in a little bubble?

Star Wars is still watched and enjoyed today, just because it was made years ago does not mean the impact of it is still seen.
Also, please provide evidence YA Novels have lead to an increase of people protesting, along with evidence to show video games do lead to violence.

[Agarntrop]

I'd say Starmer is doing well so far. I'm not a labour voter, but I can see that he is going to be better at holding the tory feet to the fire better than Corbyn. I hope to see him stopping Boris sneaking stuff past us while virus and protest takes our attention.

Let's hope today is the day labour begins to lead over the tories in polling (the gap has already narrowed quickly to 3%, its inevitable at this rate).

It would be quite ironic considering today is exactly 3 years since we kicked their arses.

[The New California Republic]

So are memes damaging to modern culture now?

Yes.

[Ifreann]

Talking about statues getting vandalized during black lives matter protests in the UK.
This happened today too:

(Image)

It happened in Westminster.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/h ... 53476.html

"Waah! Waah! A dead man’s racism offends me aaaaahh!"

Yeah, no shit, he was a gung-ho imperialist who burned Pakistani villages and despised Indians. Probably less well known than it ought to be, but honestly, I’m actually getting bloody annoyed at this nonsensical vandalism and protesting in the midst of a fucking pandemic. If people want to show support, they can do it online and waste their money abroad, rather than putting the rest of us in more danger.

Who is endangered by people writing true things on a statue of Churchill?

---

What good is there in destroying statues?
Through a modern lens we can of course say the actions of Colston were terrible, however tearing down a statue because it doesn't agree with our modern viewpoint seems wasteful, especially as nothing is being learned by it. Let's face it, how many people involved in that action even knew who the statue depicted was beyond being told on a twitter post? And after it was torn down, how many are really even going to read up on the history of Bristol, Colston or slavery?

Well if people were ignorant about Colston before the statue was torn down then clearly the presence of the statue was not inspiring people to research the man. So the absence of the statue won't be any loss to the general knowledge of the people of Bristol.

And why throw it in a harbour? If they were that pissed off then why not have it melted down and made into something else, it's just stupid vandalism at this point.

I imagine they threw it in the harbour because that was a convenient way to express their disdain for the lionisation of a slave trader. Melting the statue down would have been very difficult, time-consuming, and extremely dangerous.

We can't escape our history, it's written in blood and horrible deeds just as much as flowery poetry and tales of heroes. Scars of history must be borne or else we'll forget what caused them.

It's very silly to think that Colston's statue was torn down and dumped in the harbour because people want to forget the past. Very obviously the opposite is true. People tore the statue down because they know full well his history and they are not willing to gloss over his involvement in a historical atrocity on the basis of his philanthropy.

[The Islands of Versilia]

"Waah! Waah! A dead man’s racism offends me aaaaahh!"

Yeah, no shit, he was a gung-ho imperialist who burned Pakistani villages and despised Indians. Probably less well known than it ought to be, but honestly, I’m actually getting bloody annoyed at this nonsensical vandalism and protesting in the midst of a fucking pandemic. If people want to show support, they can do it online and waste their money abroad, rather than putting the rest of us in more danger.

Who is endangered by people writing true things on a statue of Churchill?

It’s vandalism, plain and simple. Thuggish mob shite.

[Ifreann]

Who is endangered by people writing true things on a statue of Churchill?

It’s vandalism, plain and simple. Thuggish mob shite.

But who is endangered by it? Are you going to die because someone wrote that Churchill is a racist on a statue of Churchill instead of writing it on Facebook?

[The Islands of Versilia]

It’s vandalism, plain and simple. Thuggish mob shite.

But who is endangered by it? Are you going to die because someone wrote that Churchill is a racist on a statue of Churchill instead of writing it on Facebook?

It’s a waste of taxpayer money having to get people to clean them, thuggish behaviour to deface them in the first place, and damage to public property. It’s improper, in my view, for Britons to act so uncivilised.

[An Alan Smithee Nation]

Who is endangered by people writing true things on a statue of Churchill?

It’s vandalism, plain and simple. Thuggish mob shite.

Member of the Bullingdon Club, Boris Johnson, complaining about people vandalising things is a bit rich.

[The New California Republic]

It’s improper, in my view, for Britons to act so uncivilised.

[Thanatttynia]

I'm complaining about online culture as a whole, yes, an integral (and corrosive) part of which is its speed. This is not how we are meant to live. I've never known a world without the ubiquity of television so I can't really feel its effect as keenly as I can that of the internet, but it's a (vast) difference of degree rather than of kind, I agree.

I'm not sure why you're framing this as though we have to choose between the destruction of historic monuments and ending wrongful shootings? It's not an either/or. I entirely appreciate legitimate concerns with the justice system, I'm just rejecting this deranged religious revival movement.

Ofc systemic racism exists in the UK, but it's a nonsense to equate it with that experienced in America. My problem with the Americanisation of our national conversation isn't that I object to such issues being raised - it's based on the simple fact that American 'solutions' to American problems within their specific national context will do nothing to help people over here given that there is a different context, no matter how much people want to deny that. In fact, such ideology seems likely to me to exacerbate what racial tension there is in the UK and fuck up further our already strained communities which have already had to deal with so much.

Again I can only confidently speak to the effects of popular media on my generation. YA has had an appreciable effect from where I'm sitting; 'Star Wars' etc. is before our time. Also video games probably do contribute to violence but (allow me the Americanism) 'y'all ain't ready for that conversation.'

So are memes damaging to modern culture now?

I am also not commending nor condoning what the protesters did. What's done is done. It was one specific statue torn down due to the history of the individual. I highly doubt it will lead to further statues being pulled down, as you seem to think it will.

It's not about Americanisation, it's about the problems that have happened.
While it may be a situation in America, it's a concern people have over here as a way to show the US government that the British people are also against what the US is doing. Should all countries just remain in a little bubble?

Star Wars is still watched and enjoyed today, just because it was made years ago does not mean the impact of it is still seen.
Also, please provide evidence YA Novels have lead to an increase of people protesting, along with evidence to show video games do lead to violence.

A peaceful protest in solidarity with the victims of American police brutality? Fine. Severely injuring police officers and desecrating memorials based on a dangerous and false luxury ideology imported wholesale with no thought to the reality of life in this country is some ways off that.

No chance we're at the end of the line with these idiotic statue fights either. There's a Rhodes Must Fall protest occurring tomorrow in front of a statue of Rhodes at Oriel College, Oxford. We've seen what happened with the statue of Churchill in Parliament Square already.

Yes, (internet) memes are a damaging part of modern culture. The YA comment was an observation, I have no scientific studies on hand to back it up. Video games debate is off-topic; we'll agree to disagree.

[Ifreann]

But who is endangered by it? Are you going to die because someone wrote that Churchill is a racist on a statue of Churchill instead of writing it on Facebook?

It’s a waste of taxpayer money having to get people to clean them, thuggish behaviour to deface them in the first place, and damage to public property. It’s improper, in my view, for Britons to act so uncivilised.

But who is endangered by it?

Look, I'll save you some time. If you meant to only refer to the protests as endangering people, but you oppose vandalism for other reasons, then you can just say so. If you do really mean that vandalism somehow endangers people then just explain how instead of listing all the other things about vandalism that make you mad. I understand and accept that you think very little of vandals. Message received.

[The Islands of Versilia]

It’s vandalism, plain and simple. Thuggish mob shite.

Member of the Bullingdon Club, Boris Johnson, complaining about people vandalising things is a bit rich.

I’ve no love for the Prime Minister. I personally despise him.

It’s improper, in my view, for Britons to act so uncivilised.

I admit I may expect too much from my kinsmen.

It’s a waste of taxpayer money having to get people to clean them, thuggish behaviour to deface them in the first place, and damage to public property. It’s improper, in my view, for Britons to act so uncivilised.

But who is endangered by it?

Look, I'll save you some time. If you meant to only refer to the protests as endangering people, but you oppose vandalism for other reasons, then you can just say so. If you do really mean that vandalism somehow endangers people then just explain how instead of listing all the other things about vandalism that make you mad. I understand and accept that you think very little of vandals. Message received.

I personally view the protests as endangering people because of the ongoing pandemic and the threat still posed by it. I oppose the vandalism for other reasons, principally because I view them as thuggish and uncivilised in general.

[Lost Memories]

Who is endangered by people writing true things on a statue of Churchill?

With that reasoning i guess you would have no objections to random people writing on your car and front door something inflamatory but true. It would be true, afterall.

Or for a more close example, a mob writing on the tombstone of your grandma (great-grandmother, if you are lucky enough to have your grandma still alive)
"Ifreann's grandma was a racist"

Who would get endangered there? True things written on a piece of stone, what's the harm there?
(but that example assumes, you did care even one bit about your grandma, it's hard to make examples of insensitivity to insensitive persons)

Hint, asking who gets endangered by vandalism is just shifting the point.
Art and books getting destroyed doesn't harm anyone physically. Is it reprehensible? Absolutely.

If instead your confusion was only about "rather than putting the rest of us in more danger."
It's cause we are in the middle of a pandemic, DUH. And the UK isn't shining there, to start with. (UK is very close now to get past Spain for total number of infections)



Not like it's really worth having this discussion about value of history and cultural identity here, not surprised at all some would try to defend that vandalism here, afterall, the mindset of those vandals isn't to far detached from the general mindset often seen in this forum. If you guys were less lazy you could have been out there with them, have some selfies, vandalize some statues of historical figures you know little about, and generally have a good time after some stressful and boring weeks caused by that virus pandemic limiting your access to getting an education and personal freedumbs.

All that said, i'm not even a briton, but seeing a statue of a very important historical figure like that getting trivialized (moreso than getting vandalized) is saddening. Really hope this new brand of American imported cultural shit won't spill over the rest of europe.
(elsewhere in europe there have been similar "protests", but at least the level doesn't seem to have stepped so low as to disrespect our own history and give up civilty, well aside Sweden, they had some looting during their protests there)

[Auristania]

To be fair, tea parties, like statues, also tend to end up in the harbour.

[Kyapo]

True, last time there was a tea party and a harbour we ended up with the USA, so not a great advert there

[Questarian New Yorkshire]

Riots should be squashed by the authorities before there is any more criminal damage

[The New California Republic]

That's what they are doing already.