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UK Politics Thread XII: The Lockdown

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Should the UK Take a Harder Line Against Russia on the Basis of the ISC Report?

Yes
56
67%
No
14
17%
No *vote amended by GRU*
13
16%
 
Total votes : 83

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Souseiseki
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Posts: 19372
Founded: Apr 12, 2012
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Souseiseki » Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:15 pm

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Chan Island wrote:
Kneejerks are not good, but it's obvious that we have to seriously review and reform the way in which we do sentences. We've now had multiple times where we've released crazy madmen and terrorists from prison and they've gone on to immediately go hurt or kill people.

I would be very uncomfortable with punishing people for crimes committed by others though. Crime prevention never calls for pre-emptive action against people we've no proof are going to do anything.


of course. that's why the great free west takes the approach of making something they think might be connected itself a crime. that way you can punish people for that crime instead of punishing them for a future crime, even though the only reason that thing itself is a crime is because of its connection to future crime. so now you've got a way to punish people for future crimes or the crimes of others while pretending you aren't through your invented crime. it's genius!
Last edited by Souseiseki on Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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The East Marches II
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Ex-Nation

Postby The East Marches II » Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:17 pm

Gormwood wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:If we lose intel sharing and law enforcement cooperation with the EU by losing ECHR membership, this is a hard decision.
I despise intelligence and law enforcement sharing. I also wish to remain in the ECHR.

Law enforcement and intelligence agencies not sharing is how 9/11 was allowed to happen. Do you want your own 9/11?


Shit Gauthier, I didn't know you were a Bush admin guy now. No wonder you support literally everything Uncle Sam does to spy on us when you throw out lines like that.

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Greater vakolicci haven
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Anarchy

Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:20 pm

Gormwood wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:If we lose intel sharing and law enforcement cooperation with the EU by losing ECHR membership, this is a hard decision.
I despise intelligence and law enforcement sharing. I also wish to remain in the ECHR.

Law enforcement and intelligence agencies not sharing is how 9/11 was allowed to happen. Do you want your own 9/11?

Them sharing is how a lot of shady shit goes down though.
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“I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” - Thomas Jefferson
“Silent acquiescence in the face of tyranny is no better than outright agreement." - C.J. Redwine
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." - Jeff Cooper

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Gormwood
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Ex-Nation

Postby Gormwood » Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:36 pm

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Gormwood wrote:Law enforcement and intelligence agencies not sharing is how 9/11 was allowed to happen. Do you want your own 9/11?

Them sharing is how a lot of shady shit goes down though.

Like?
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The East Marches II
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Founded: Mar 11, 2017
Ex-Nation

Postby The East Marches II » Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:38 pm

Gormwood wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Them sharing is how a lot of shady shit goes down though.

Like?


Mass surveillance of their own citizens. Oh wait, I forgot you think that's a good thing. I'm so glad we gave Trump that power, aren't you Gauth :^)

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Vassenor
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Founded: Nov 11, 2010
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Vassenor » Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:40 pm

The East Marches II wrote:
Gormwood wrote:Like?


Mass surveillance of their own citizens. Oh wait, I forgot you think that's a good thing. I'm so glad we gave Trump that power, aren't you Gauth :^)


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Celritannia
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Founded: Nov 10, 2010
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Celritannia » Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:43 pm

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Gormwood wrote:Law enforcement and intelligence agencies not sharing is how 9/11 was allowed to happen. Do you want your own 9/11?

Them sharing is how a lot of shady shit goes down though.


GVH: a small number of deaths is a price we should pay for releasing terrorists due to their incarceration being against their human rights.
Last edited by Celritannia on Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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The East Marches II
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Ex-Nation

Postby The East Marches II » Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:44 pm

Vassenor wrote:
The East Marches II wrote:
Mass surveillance of their own citizens. Oh wait, I forgot you think that's a good thing. I'm so glad we gave Trump that power, aren't you Gauth :^)


Today in "shit nobody said"...


That so called intelligence sharing is how they get around rules on spying on their own citizens. Gauthier has repeatedly said he is infavor of such things in the name of security. Even saying Trump is too dumb to abuse them. I am disappointed to find he supports tyranny wherever it appears globally apparently. I wish he would engage in a healthy debate over it's merits with me. Which is what I was trying to instigate.

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Gormwood
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Ex-Nation

Postby Gormwood » Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:44 pm

Celritannia wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Them sharing is how a lot of shady shit goes down though.


GVH: a small number of deaths is a price we should pay for releasing terrorists due to it being against human rights.

Maybe if we cut off NHS and social service assistance for terrorists he'd be fine with it.
Bloodthirsty savages who call for violence against the Right while simultaneously being unarmed defenseless sissies who will get slaughtered by the gun-toting Right in a civil war.
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Greater vakolicci haven
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Posts: 18659
Founded: May 09, 2014
Anarchy

Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:49 pm

Celritannia wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Them sharing is how a lot of shady shit goes down though.


GVH: a small number of deaths is a price we should pay for releasing terrorists due to their incarceration against human rights.

Human rights are a pretty big thing to me. It's what I study at university full time.
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“I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” - Thomas Jefferson
“Silent acquiescence in the face of tyranny is no better than outright agreement." - C.J. Redwine
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." - Jeff Cooper

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Celritannia
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Posts: 12347
Founded: Nov 10, 2010
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Celritannia » Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:54 pm

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Celritannia wrote:
GVH: a small number of deaths is a price we should pay for releasing terrorists due to their incarceration against human rights.

Human rights are a pretty big thing to me. It's what I study at university full time.


Human Rights are also a big thing for me, but releasing a convicted terrorist early who went out to stab people is not in the interest of human rights if he is taking away people's lives.
Last edited by Celritannia on Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:54 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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The New California Republic
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Posts: 33754
Founded: Jun 06, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Mon Feb 03, 2020 12:57 pm

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Human rights are a pretty big thing to me. It's what I study at university full time.

A reminder that human rights are dependent on humanity in order to exist.

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:'Humanity' and 'Society' can completely collapse for all I care. What do they matter lol
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
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Greater vakolicci haven
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Anarchy

Postby Greater vakolicci haven » Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:01 pm

Celritannia wrote:
Greater vakolicci haven wrote:Human rights are a pretty big thing to me. It's what I study at university full time.


Human Rights are also a big thing for me, but releasing a convicted terrorist early who went out to stab people is not in the interest of human rights if he is taking away people's lives.

I see human rights as a negative obligation on the government. They generally don't oblige them to do certain things, more to refrain from doing them. For example, not making people serve longer sentences based on arbitrary criteria. Not monitoring ethnic groups based on arbitrary criteria.
Join the rejected realms and never fear rejection again
NSG virtual happy hour this Saturday: join us on zoom, what could possibly go wrong?
“I predict future happiness for Americans, if they can prevent the government from wasting the labors of the people under the pretense of taking care of them.” - Thomas Jefferson
“Silent acquiescence in the face of tyranny is no better than outright agreement." - C.J. Redwine
“The rifle itself has no moral stature, since it has no will of its own. Naturally, it may be used by evil men for evil purposes, but there are more good men than evil, and while the latter cannot be persuaded to the path of righteousness by propaganda, they can certainly be corrected by good men with rifles." - Jeff Cooper

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Celritannia
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Posts: 12347
Founded: Nov 10, 2010
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Celritannia » Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:22 pm

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Celritannia wrote:
Human Rights are also a big thing for me, but releasing a convicted terrorist early who went out to stab people is not in the interest of human rights if he is taking away people's lives.

I see human rights as a negative obligation on the government. They generally don't oblige them to do certain things, more to refrain from doing them. For example, not making people serve longer sentences based on arbitrary criteria. Not monitoring ethnic groups based on arbitrary criteria.


Says the person who dislikes government intervention in anything, including basic human rights for healthcare, housing, benefits, basic living wage, regulating businesses for better environment protection, etc.

Furthermore this was not arbitrary, the person in question was a convicted terrorist. Key word, terrorist, meaning to cause terror amongst the population.
Whose human rights matter when the person who you are defending wishes to take the lives of others?
Last edited by Celritannia on Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:27 pm, edited 4 times in total.

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Zirkagrad wrote:A person with a penchant for flying lions with long tongues, could possibly be a fan of Kiss. Maybe the classiest nation with a lion with its tongue hanging out. Enjoys only the finest tea.

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Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
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Founded: Jun 28, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:37 pm

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Alvecia wrote:It's not really spite, it's just good sense for them.

The EU first and foremost has to look after its members. Now that we're not one, it's under no obligation to support us. Spain on the other hand is still a member, thus it benefits the EU to side with it's member over a non-member.

Thinking they wouldn't is naivety of the highest order.

It sets a very bad precedent if they back Spain's (laughable) claim. There's a legally-binding treaty setting out who owns Gibraltar. It is international law that goes undisputed aside from by Spain.

The Treaty of Utrecht is not in question. What is happening is that unless UK gets Spain to agree on a trade deal there will be no trade deal, and people in Gibraltar are going to pay customs on eggs and milk bought in Spanish supermarkets and carried over the border. Although per BoJo's plan they are going to be forced to pay those customs anyway.

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The Nihilistic view
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Moralistic Democracy

Postby The Nihilistic view » Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:58 pm

The thing that surprises me is they were ever treated like normal criminals in the first place.
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The Notorious Mad Jack
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Democratic Socialists

Postby The Notorious Mad Jack » Mon Feb 03, 2020 1:58 pm

The East Marches II wrote:
Vassenor wrote:
Today in "shit nobody said"...


That so called intelligence sharing is how they get around rules on spying on their own citizens. Gauthier has repeatedly said he is infavor of such things in the name of security. Even saying Trump is too dumb to abuse them. I am disappointed to find he supports tyranny wherever it appears globally apparently. I wish he would engage in a healthy debate over it's merits with me. Which is what I was trying to instigate.

It's quite clear what you were trying to instigate. No one cares about your ongoing, frankly quite boring feud with Gauthier. Please keep it out of our thread cos as previously said, it's really really boring fam.
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Fartsniffage
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Posts: 39046
Founded: Dec 19, 2005
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Fartsniffage » Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:29 pm

Apparently if you have cancer then the NHS will pay for a gym membership at a local gym so you can build some muscle before they start chemo. How awesome is that?
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The New California Republic
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Posts: 33754
Founded: Jun 06, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Mon Feb 03, 2020 2:31 pm

Fartsniffage wrote:Apparently if you have cancer then the NHS will pay for a gym membership at a local gym so you can build some muscle before they start chemo. How awesome is that?

I learned something today.
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
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Gormwood
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Founded: Mar 25, 2019
Ex-Nation

Postby Gormwood » Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:16 pm

The Notorious Mad Jack wrote:
The East Marches II wrote:
That so called intelligence sharing is how they get around rules on spying on their own citizens. Gauthier has repeatedly said he is infavor of such things in the name of security. Even saying Trump is too dumb to abuse them. I am disappointed to find he supports tyranny wherever it appears globally apparently. I wish he would engage in a healthy debate over it's merits with me. Which is what I was trying to instigate.

It's quite clear what you were trying to instigate. No one cares about your ongoing, frankly quite boring feud with Gauthier. Please keep it out of our thread cos as previously said, it's really really boring fam.

Oh, is he still trying? Pffft. Blocked him long ago, that's pretty sad and pathetic that he has nothing better to do in his life than try to dunk on people and get an angry rise out of them.
Bloodthirsty savages who call for violence against the Right while simultaneously being unarmed defenseless sissies who will get slaughtered by the gun-toting Right in a civil war.
Breath So Bad, It Actually Drives People Mad

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The New California Republic
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Posts: 33754
Founded: Jun 06, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:42 pm

Emergency legislation will be introduced to end the automatic early release from prison of terror offenders, the government has said.

Justice Secretary Robert Buckland told MPs the change would apply to both current and future offenders.

Terror offenders will only be considered for release once they have served two-thirds of their sentence and with the approval of the Parole Board.

It follows two attacks by men convicted of terror offences in recent months.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51364047
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

User avatar
Fartsniffage
Post Czar
 
Posts: 39046
Founded: Dec 19, 2005
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Fartsniffage » Mon Feb 03, 2020 3:44 pm

The New California Republic wrote:
Emergency legislation will be introduced to end the automatic early release from prison of terror offenders, the government has said.

Justice Secretary Robert Buckland told MPs the change would apply to both current and future offenders.

Terror offenders will only be considered for release once they have served two-thirds of their sentence and with the approval of the Parole Board.

It follows two attacks by men convicted of terror offences in recent months.

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-51364047


That's gonna mean a bunch of legal challenges. Not on the Parole Board bit, but on the increase from half to two thirds.
Strong opinions, lightly held.

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Rojava Free State
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 19428
Founded: Feb 06, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Rojava Free State » Mon Feb 03, 2020 4:08 pm

Greater vakolicci haven wrote:
Chan Island wrote:
Kneejerks are not good, but it's obvious that we have to seriously review and reform the way in which we do sentences. We've now had multiple times where we've released crazy madmen and terrorists from prison and they've gone on to immediately go hurt or kill people.

I would be very uncomfortable with punishing people for crimes committed by others though. Crime prevention never calls for pre-emptive action against people we've no proof are going to do anything.


Why is anyone taking a page from minority report on crime prevention?
Rojava Free State wrote:Listen yall. I'm only gonna say it once but I want you to remember it. This ain't a world fit for good men. It seems like you gotta be monstrous just to make it. Gotta have a little bit of darkness within you just to survive. You gotta stoop low everyday it seems like. Stoop all the way down to the devil in these times. And then one day you look in the mirror and you realize that you ain't you anymore. You're just another monster, and thanks to your actions, someone else will eventually become as warped and twisted as you. Never forget that the best of us are just the best of a bad lot. Being at the top of a pile of feces doesn't make you anything but shit like the rest. Never forget that.

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Souseiseki
Post Marshal
 
Posts: 19372
Founded: Apr 12, 2012
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Souseiseki » Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:20 pm

new poll showing support for scottish independence at 52%

the magic number

e: oh and a comfortable predicted win for pro-independence parties at the next scottish parliament election
Last edited by Souseiseki on Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.
ask moderation about reading serious moderation candidates TGs without telling them about it until afterwards and/or apparently refusing to confirm/deny the exact timeline of TG reading ~~~ i hope you never sent any of the recent mods or the ones that got really close anything personal!

signature edit: confirmation has been received. they will explicitly do it before and without asking. they can look at TGs basically whenever they want so please keep this in mind when nominating people for moderator or TGing good posters/anyone!
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Albrenia
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Posts: 16243
Founded: Aug 18, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Albrenia » Mon Feb 03, 2020 6:22 pm

Souseiseki wrote:new poll showing support for scottish independence at 52%

the magic number


What would said process be called, Scexit? That sounds wrong...

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