UK Politics Thread XII: The Lockdown

[The New California Republic]

EU to support Spain's claim to Gibraltar since UK left EU.

Well it looks like Gibraltar is going to get fucked in the trade deal if the EU is going to play hardball.

[The New California Republic]

It's a double-edged sword. On the one hand keeping them in prison protects the public, but on the other hand there is no evidence that deradicalisation programmes with the prisoners works, and the prisoners are likely to become even more radicalised in prison. Many terrorists have previously been in prison for other non-terrorism offences, and when they have been released they have committed acts of terrorism.

I think it needs to be a balance. You can't just lock up everyone who is ever jailed forever, simply because you know that prisons have tended to be Universities of Crime and Timmy the Thief may graduate as Timmy the Terrorist (I know that's not your argument, NCR; I'm just saying...). Although more investment in prison staff and rehabilitation is really needed to prevent prisons being Universities of Crime.

I think that judges need to be given more flexibility to sentence based on the risk still posed by that individual. If, upon the point of release it can be demonstrated to a reasonable standard that the prisoner still poses a substantial threat to the community, there should be greater flexibility.

I do believe that a sizable majority of people can and should be rehabilitated, and all effort should be made to do so. But some people will always pose a danger to the public.

The issue also is that a complete review is needed of the deradicalisation techniques used, as it has been pointed out that there is little evidence that they actually work. Prevention is better than cure as well, and since it has been frequently observed that terrorists usually have prior criminal offences, then the link between that and later terrorism should also be explored further, to identify if there is a recognisable point where intervention would work.

Since the root causes of crime are usually poverty and deprivation, then that's also a potential avenue for stopping the problem before it occurs.

[Alvecia]

EU to support Spain's claim to Gibraltar since UK left EU.

Are they serious? Only the people of Gibraltar have a right to determine their destiny. This is like the United Nations backing China's claim over Hong Kong all the while completely ignoring the input of Hong Kong people, which is exactly what has happened.

The UK must stand with Gibraltar and tell the EU to go fuck itself. They are siding with Spanish fascist imperialists just to spite Britain's decision to Leave. It's absolutely vindictive and immoral.

It's not really spite, it's just good sense for them.

The EU first and foremost has to look after its members. Now that we're not one, it's under no obligation to support us. Spain on the other hand is still a member, thus it benefits the EU to side with it's member over a non-member.

Thinking they wouldn't is naivety of the highest order.

[Vassenor]

Are they serious? Only the people of Gibraltar have a right to determine their destiny. This is like the United Nations backing China's claim over Hong Kong all the while completely ignoring the input of Hong Kong people, which is exactly what has happened.

The UK must stand with Gibraltar and tell the EU to go fuck itself. They are siding with Spanish fascist imperialists just to spite Britain's decision to Leave. It's absolutely vindictive and immoral.

It's not really spite, it's just good sense for them.

The EU first and foremost has to look after its members. Now that we're not one, it's under no obligation to support us. Spain on the other hand is still a member, thus it benefits the EU to side with it's member over a non-member.

Thinking they wouldn't is naivety of the highest order.

"Naivety of the highest order" kind of sums up Brexit in general if we're quite honest.

[Alvecia]

EU to support Spain's claim to Gibraltar since UK left EU.

Well it looks like Gibraltar is going to get fucked in the trade deal if the EU is going to play hardball.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've been told Spain has to ratify any trade deal we make with the EU. Is that correct?

[The New California Republic]

Well it looks like Gibraltar is going to get fucked in the trade deal if the EU is going to play hardball.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I've been told Spain has to ratify any trade deal we make with the EU. Is that correct?

The article says:

The EU will back Spain over its territorial claims to Gibraltar in the next phase of Brexit negotiations by giving Madrid the power to exclude the British overseas territory from any trade deal struck with Brussels.

So Gibraltar could be forced to use WTO rules, which would be total shit in comparison to the potential trade deal that the rUK would get.

[The Free Joy State]

I think it needs to be a balance. You can't just lock up everyone who is ever jailed forever, simply because you know that prisons have tended to be Universities of Crime and Timmy the Thief may graduate as Timmy the Terrorist (I know that's not your argument, NCR; I'm just saying...). Although more investment in prison staff and rehabilitation is really needed to prevent prisons being Universities of Crime.

I think that judges need to be given more flexibility to sentence based on the risk still posed by that individual. If, upon the point of release it can be demonstrated to a reasonable standard that the prisoner still poses a substantial threat to the community, there should be greater flexibility.

I do believe that a sizable majority of people can and should be rehabilitated, and all effort should be made to do so. But some people will always pose a danger to the public.

The issue also is that a complete review is needed of the deradicalisation techniques used, as it has been pointed out that there is little evidence that they actually work. Prevention is better than cure as well, and since it has been frequently observed that terrorists usually have prior criminal offences, then the link between that and later terrorism should also be explored further, to identify if there is a recognisable point where intervention would work.

Since the root causes of crime are usually poverty and deprivation, then that's also a potential avenue for stopping the problem before it occurs.

Well, one of the issues is that there's no cohesive deradicalisation programme -- so deradicalisation is spotty, even if the prisoner can get to the top of the waiting list. Research is definitely needed to see if there are techniques that work, and which work for which type of prisoner -- both to prevent radicalisation of those who enter prison for other crimes and those who were jailed for terrorism offences.

They were constructing three units for offenders convicted of terror-related offences, who they thought would be harder to deradicalize and at risk of radicalising others, but they put the third on-hold for some reason.

Also, definitely work within the community, easing crime, deprivation, desperation -- as you say, an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.

But I don't really see the current government keen on doing the social work that might alleviate the causes of crime. Going by the "lock them up and throw away the key" rhetoric and the history on social welfare, they're more a "wait until they're grown and causing problems, then throw them into overcrowded cells" government.

[Definitely Not Trumptonium]

EU to support Spain's claim to Gibraltar since UK left EU.

Well it looks like Gibraltar is going to get fucked in the trade deal if the EU is going to play hardball.

Not really - Gibraltar follows the rather ironic pattern wherein the regions of the UK who least trade with the EU are those most inclined to support Remain.

Once you look at Gibraltar's economy you realise they will be the least affected from Brexit. Exports make up less than 10% of Gibraltar's economy, while UK military presence makes up about 10% as well. Tourism is about 10% as well, the other quarter-third is domestic consumption, and the rest is a vibrant financial and gambling sector, which is mostly based on the UK economy (e.g. bet365, entirely based in Gibraltar)

[Gormwood]

It's not really spite, it's just good sense for them.

The EU first and foremost has to look after its members. Now that we're not one, it's under no obligation to support us. Spain on the other hand is still a member, thus it benefits the EU to side with it's member over a non-member.

Thinking they wouldn't is naivety of the highest order.

"Naivety of the highest order" kind of sums up Brexit in general if we're quite honest.

Brexit is the UK throwing itself out of the EU and swearing like Bender it's going to start its own trading block, with blackjack, and hookers.

[The New California Republic]

Well it looks like Gibraltar is going to get fucked in the trade deal if the EU is going to play hardball.

Not really - Gibraltar follows the rather ironic pattern wherein the regions of the UK who least trade with the EU are those most inclined to support Remain.

Once you look at Gibraltar's economy you realise they will be the least affected from Brexit. Exports make up less than 10% of Gibraltar's economy, while UK military presence makes up about 10% as well. Tourism is about 10% as well, the other quarter-third is domestic consumption, and the rest is a vibrant financial and gambling sector, which is mostly based on the UK economy (e.g. bet365, entirely based in Gibraltar)

One of the main sectors of the economy is the shipping trade, which will no doubt be negatively affected if Gibraltar is excluded from any trade deal. Coupled with the fact that Gibraltar gets over 50% of its imports from EU nations.

[Fartsniffage]

Not really - Gibraltar follows the rather ironic pattern wherein the regions of the UK who least trade with the EU are those most inclined to support Remain.

Once you look at Gibraltar's economy you realise they will be the least affected from Brexit. Exports make up less than 10% of Gibraltar's economy, while UK military presence makes up about 10% as well. Tourism is about 10% as well, the other quarter-third is domestic consumption, and the rest is a vibrant financial and gambling sector, which is mostly based on the UK economy (e.g. bet365, entirely based in Gibraltar)

One of the main sectors of the economy is the shipping trade, which will no doubt be negatively affected if Gibraltar is excluded from any trade deal. Coupled with the fact that Gibraltar gets over 50% of its imports from EU nations.

It also imports around 100% of its food. Seems kinda important...

[Ifreann]

One of the main sectors of the economy is the shipping trade, which will no doubt be negatively affected if Gibraltar is excluded from any trade deal. Coupled with the fact that Gibraltar gets over 50% of its imports from EU nations.

It also imports around 100% of its food. Seems kinda important...

They'll just have to get used to eating bendy bananas like the rest of the UK.

[Gormwood]

Fears about US food standards ‘hysterical’, says Boris Johnson

Which going by past Johnson claims means it's probably true contrasting what he says.

[Souseiseki]

The envisaged partnership should be underpinned by commitments to respect fundamental rights including adequate protection of personal data, which is an enabler for the cooperation. In this context, the envisaged partnership should provide for automatic termination of the law enforcement cooperation and judicial cooperation in criminal matters if the United Kingdom were to denounce the European Convention of Human Rights (ECHR). It should also provide for automatic suspension if the United Kingdom were to abrogate domestic law giving effect to the ECHR, thus making it impossible for individuals to invoke the rights under the ECHR before the United Kingdom’s courts.

dear god i am so happy

the UK having law enforcement co-operation ripped away automatically if it tries to fuck with human rights

this is the kind of thing i used to openly daydream about on NSG but thought would never happen but the EU seems to want to actually for it

the UK being rightfully treated for its contempt for human rights and rule of law by becoming a pariah state

throw intelligence sharing in there too

[Liriena]

The envisaged partnership should be underpinned by commitments to respect fundamental rights including adequate protection of personal data, which is an enabler for the cooperation. In this context, the envisaged partnership should provide for automatic termination of the law enforcement cooperation and judicial cooperation in criminal matters if the United Kingdom were to denounce the European Convention of Human Rights (ECHR). It should also provide for automatic suspension if the United Kingdom were to abrogate domestic law giving effect to the ECHR, thus making it impossible for individuals to invoke the rights under the ECHR before the United Kingdom’s courts.

dear god i am so happy

the UK having law enforcement co-operation ripped away automatically if it tries to fuck with human rights

this is the kind of thing i used to openly daydream about on NSG but thought would never happen but the EU seems to want to actually for it

the UK being rightfully treated for its contempt for human rights and rule of law by becoming a pariah state

throw intelligence sharing in there too

including adequate protection of personal data

wow I can't believe GCHQ got hit with the steel chair while its back was turned

[Gormwood]

dear god i am so happy

the UK having law enforcement co-operation ripped away automatically if it tries to fuck with human rights

this is the kind of thing i used to openly daydream about on NSG but thought would never happen but the EU seems to want to actually for it

the UK being rightfully treated for its contempt for human rights and rule of law by becoming a pariah state

throw intelligence sharing in there too

including adequate protection of personal data

wow I can't believe GCHQ got hit with the steel chair while its back was turned

And the Tories are outraged the ref didn't ring the brll.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

The envisaged partnership should be underpinned by commitments to respect fundamental rights including adequate protection of personal data, which is an enabler for the cooperation. In this context, the envisaged partnership should provide for automatic termination of the law enforcement cooperation and judicial cooperation in criminal matters if the United Kingdom were to denounce the European Convention of Human Rights (ECHR). It should also provide for automatic suspension if the United Kingdom were to abrogate domestic law giving effect to the ECHR, thus making it impossible for individuals to invoke the rights under the ECHR before the United Kingdom’s courts.

dear god i am so happy

the UK having law enforcement co-operation ripped away automatically if it tries to fuck with human rights

this is the kind of thing i used to openly daydream about on NSG but thought would never happen but the EU seems to want to actually for it

the UK being rightfully treated for its contempt for human rights and rule of law by becoming a pariah state

throw intelligence sharing in there too

You know... looking at this now... it would've been better if UK was still in... because now the hammers are coming down on what is a xeno entity to the wider European system. <.>

[The New California Republic]

The envisaged partnership should be underpinned by commitments to respect fundamental rights including adequate protection of personal data, which is an enabler for the cooperation. In this context, the envisaged partnership should provide for automatic termination of the law enforcement cooperation and judicial cooperation in criminal matters if the United Kingdom were to denounce the European Convention of Human Rights (ECHR). It should also provide for automatic suspension if the United Kingdom were to abrogate domestic law giving effect to the ECHR, thus making it impossible for individuals to invoke the rights under the ECHR before the United Kingdom’s courts.

dear god i am so happy

the UK having law enforcement co-operation ripped away automatically if it tries to fuck with human rights

Good. This'll stop the "have the cake and eat it" mentality.

[Gormwood]

dear god i am so happy

the UK having law enforcement co-operation ripped away automatically if it tries to fuck with human rights

this is the kind of thing i used to openly daydream about on NSG but thought would never happen but the EU seems to want to actually for it

the UK being rightfully treated for its contempt for human rights and rule of law by becoming a pariah state

throw intelligence sharing in there too

You know... looking at this now... it would've been better if UK was still in... because now the hammers are coming down on what is a xeno entity to the wider European system. <.>

"FOR THE EUROPEROR!!"

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

EU to support Spain's claim to Gibraltar since UK left EU.

Are they serious? Only the people of Gibraltar have a right to determine their destiny. This is like the United Nations backing China's claim over Hong Kong all the while completely ignoring the input of Hong Kong people, which is exactly what has happened.

The UK must stand with Gibraltar and tell the EU to go fuck itself. They are siding with Spanish fascist imperialists just to spite Britain's decision to Leave. It's absolutely vindictive and immoral.

I have no idea what you are on about, but what EU is telling UK is that unless UK gets Spain to agree on a trade deal there will be no trade deal, and people in Gibraltar are going to pay customs on eggs and milk bought in Spanish supermarkets and carried over the border. Although per BoJo's plan they are going to be forced to pay those customs anyway.

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Yeah cause kneejerks are just great right?

Kneejerks are not good, but it's obvious that we have to seriously review and reform the way in which we do sentences. We've now had multiple times where we've released crazy madmen and terrorists from prison and they've gone on to immediately go hurt or kill people.

I would be very uncomfortable with punishing people for crimes committed by others though. Crime prevention never calls for pre-emptive action against people we've no proof are going to do anything.

[The East Marches II]

The EU rolls over to dictators all the time like the spineless losers they are. Maybe if the UK threatens them with force or flooding Belgium with poor people they'll start paying you for the deal :^)

[Greater vakolicci haven]

The envisaged partnership should be underpinned by commitments to respect fundamental rights including adequate protection of personal data, which is an enabler for the cooperation. In this context, the envisaged partnership should provide for automatic termination of the law enforcement cooperation and judicial cooperation in criminal matters if the United Kingdom were to denounce the European Convention of Human Rights (ECHR). It should also provide for automatic suspension if the United Kingdom were to abrogate domestic law giving effect to the ECHR, thus making it impossible for individuals to invoke the rights under the ECHR before the United Kingdom’s courts.

dear god i am so happy

the UK having law enforcement co-operation ripped away automatically if it tries to fuck with human rights

this is the kind of thing i used to openly daydream about on NSG but thought would never happen but the EU seems to want to actually for it

the UK being rightfully treated for its contempt for human rights and rule of law by becoming a pariah state

throw intelligence sharing in there too

If we lose intel sharing and law enforcement cooperation with the EU by losing ECHR membership, this is a hard decision.
I despise intelligence and law enforcement sharing. I also wish to remain in the ECHR.

[Gormwood]

dear god i am so happy

the UK having law enforcement co-operation ripped away automatically if it tries to fuck with human rights

this is the kind of thing i used to openly daydream about on NSG but thought would never happen but the EU seems to want to actually for it

the UK being rightfully treated for its contempt for human rights and rule of law by becoming a pariah state

throw intelligence sharing in there too

If we lose intel sharing and law enforcement cooperation with the EU by losing ECHR membership, this is a hard decision.
I despise intelligence and law enforcement sharing. I also wish to remain in the ECHR.

Law enforcement and intelligence agencies not sharing is how 9/11 was allowed to happen. Do you want your own 9/11?

[Greater vakolicci haven]

Are they serious? Only the people of Gibraltar have a right to determine their destiny. This is like the United Nations backing China's claim over Hong Kong all the while completely ignoring the input of Hong Kong people, which is exactly what has happened.

The UK must stand with Gibraltar and tell the EU to go fuck itself. They are siding with Spanish fascist imperialists just to spite Britain's decision to Leave. It's absolutely vindictive and immoral.

It's not really spite, it's just good sense for them.

The EU first and foremost has to look after its members. Now that we're not one, it's under no obligation to support us. Spain on the other hand is still a member, thus it benefits the EU to side with it's member over a non-member.

Thinking they wouldn't is naivety of the highest order.

It sets a very bad precedent if they back Spain's (laughable) claim. There's a legally-binding treaty setting out who owns Gibraltar. It is international law that goes undisputed aside from by Spain.