UK Politics Thread XII: The Lockdown

[Ostroeuropa]

If you were asked to evaluate the reign of henry the seventh and you listed a bunch of qualities inherent to monarchy as notable about his reign, you would probably fail the assignment. It's not "History about the british empire" you want taught. Same as it's not "History about henry the seventh" to spend a lesson talking about how his system made it so his son would take over, or how he wore a fancy hat that was made from taxes he took from peasants who had no choice in the matter, and so on. Those things are better put in lessons about monarchy as a topic rather than a specific monarch.

Same for the empire in my opinion. Imperial atrocities are best understood through a discussion on power, how it is attained, maintained, etc, throughout history.

Fair enough.

A uniquely British atrocity would probably be something like the East India Company, which was a unique way for a state to expand its power at the time (Or unique enough to be notable, but discussing how the dutch also had a similar system is appropriate.). The opium wars can also be seen as unique in that the focus of capital interests took precedence over physiocratic ones more typical for an empire, that can be used to bridge into neo-colonialism. ("Empires usually go to war to conquer land, resources, and tax payers, not secure trade agreements favorable to them, the british pioneered the latter and it is arguably how modern US empire is maintained exclusively. It can also explain the decline in Imperial expansion as it became understood that you don't need to literally run a territory to exploit it").]

Discussing how technological expansion and the "Annihilation of space and time" allowed Britain to maintain its trade interests on the other side of the globe without conquering nearby ports and so on.

[Vassenor]

Speaking of free speech, how long do we reckon it is before the government abandons the pretence and starts taking that idea of amending the Treason Act to cover "any act that could lead to the UK rejoining the EU" or whatever it was that councillor said seriously?

[Eglaecia]

Speaking of free speech, how long do we reckon it is before the government abandons the pretence and starts taking that idea of amending the Treason Act to cover "any act that could lead to the UK rejoining the EU" or whatever it was that councillor said seriously?

You and I both know that would never happen - but I wish it would.

[Vassenor]

Speaking of free speech, how long do we reckon it is before the government abandons the pretence and starts taking that idea of amending the Treason Act to cover "any act that could lead to the UK rejoining the EU" or whatever it was that councillor said seriously?

You and I both know that would never happen - but I wish it would.

Why?

[Eglaecia]

You and I both know that would never happen - but I wish it would.

Why?

I don't see why we should tolerate neoliberalism.

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

Speaking of free speech, how long do we reckon it is before the government abandons the pretence and starts taking that idea of amending the Treason Act to cover "any act that could lead to the UK rejoining the EU" or whatever it was that councillor said seriously?

The UK remains a member of the Council of Europe, which is why it makes perfect sense that the Scottish parliament is still flying the European flag. So, the UK is still bound by the ECHR.

[Vassenor]

Why?

I don't see why we should tolerate neoliberalism.

Where "neoliberalism" means what, exactly?

Because under the dictionary definition we should be getting rid of the Conservatives by that logic.

[Gormwood]

Because becoming America's bitch is "[having] our country back".

That isn't what's happening.

It's not an immediate thing like a video game, this takes time.

[Ostroeuropa]

Maybe people would take these predictions more seriously if a certain sect weren't constantly miserable and doomsaying about how awful the country and its direction is. Just saying, that's how a lot of the remoaner stuff comes across, especially in the light of the outward hatred for the UK many of them displayed.

You know peter hitchens and his constant "I'm sad because everything is falling apart and getting worse and this is another example of it" parade that never lets up?

Does that convince you that we should become a 1920s style British Christian theocracy again? No?

Hmm. I'm sure it'll work when you do it.

If you're miserable about literally everything that's happening in the country and say it's more evidence of how terrible everyone is, maybe the problem isn't everyone else. Thinking we're travelling the wrong way on some issues is fine. Thinking that about all issues on top of a hatred for the culture itself and a condescendion toward everyone?

Christ, just move. You can leave you know.

[Souseiseki]

Yeah because the EU is just so eager to pick up the non existent economies of Northern Ireland and Scotland and piss off Spain in the process.

They'll leave and just end up in the same mess as the UK is currently in except even worse.

NI won't be in the same mess, they'll just become part of Ireland. As for Scotland....yeah, I'm not sure Sturgeon realises that Madrid's a bigger obstacle than Westminster ever was. They still refuse to recognise Kosovo for fear of being seen as hypocrites.

they can't recognize kosovo because that was an illegal secession and they don't want to encourage the illegal secession of catalonia

they can recognize scotland if it secedes legally

[Nakena]

"Funny isn't it?"

- Nigel Farage, 2016

[Souseiseki]

Maybe people would take these predictions more seriously if a certain sect weren't constantly miserable and doomsaying about how awful the country and its direction is. Just saying, that's how a lot of the remoaner stuff comes across, especially in the light of the outward hatred for the UK many of them displayed.

You know peter hitchens and his constant "I'm sad because everything is falling apart and getting worse and this is another example of it" parade that never lets up?

Does that convince you that we should become a 1920s style British Christian theocracy again? No?

Hmm. I'm sure it'll work when you do it.

If you're miserable about literally everything that's happening in the country and say it's more evidence of how terrible everyone is, maybe the problem isn't everyone else. Thinking we're travelling the wrong way on some issues is fine. Thinking that about all issues on top of a hatred for the culture itself and a condescendion toward everyone?

Christ, just move. You can leave you know.

"just move" is not practical and you know it. and it's especially not practical when we just lost our right to live and work in the EU.

[Nimzonia]

And so the gammon-flavoured lunacy begins.

Especially since a lot of those are either impossible (can't claim 200 miles off the coast without infringing on other countries territory), nothing we needed to leave the EU to do (Legal Aid, etc), or just based on the failure to understand that we're not America.

Presumably they want "Comprehensive teaching of British History" because it's something they've apparently missed out on.

[Ostroeuropa]

Maybe people would take these predictions more seriously if a certain sect weren't constantly miserable and doomsaying about how awful the country and its direction is. Just saying, that's how a lot of the remoaner stuff comes across, especially in the light of the outward hatred for the UK many of them displayed.

You know peter hitchens and his constant "I'm sad because everything is falling apart and getting worse and this is another example of it" parade that never lets up?

Does that convince you that we should become a 1920s style British Christian theocracy again? No?

Hmm. I'm sure it'll work when you do it.

If you're miserable about literally everything that's happening in the country and say it's more evidence of how terrible everyone is, maybe the problem isn't everyone else. Thinking we're travelling the wrong way on some issues is fine. Thinking that about all issues on top of a hatred for the culture itself and a condescendion toward everyone?

Christ, just move. You can leave you know.

"just move" is not practical and you know it. and it's especially not practical when we just lost our right to live and work in the EU.

It's not practical as a response to a temporary issue or losing on a particular front, but if everything the country is doing makes you miserable you'd be happier elsewhere. The constant negativity from the left might be why we keep losing elections, yeah?

Remember Blair and how he framed things?

[The Nihilistic view]

A scheme to usurp the constitution in a whole range of ways

i thought the whole point of being a meme country with an unwritten constitution and parliamentary sovereignty was so that you could easily do that kind of thing if you wanted? what real constitutional obstacle is there to not doing such a thing other than that not enough MPs wanted to do it?

No sane government of any state would submit to hamstringing itself for the benefit of a group asking for veto powers over vital policy.

if you view the UK as a union of nations it makes sense. if you view the UK as one big nation eternally enthralled to the whims of its biggest "administrative region" then it does not. there is clearly some sort of disconnect brewing in how various groups in the UK feel about it, and the UK will reform itself to suit these views or find itself being discarded as archaic relic of the past.

also, it would have certainly solved brexit from the scottish perspective. that is why the scottish government suggested it. admittedly it would not have solved it from the english perspective, because the english are not willing to go along with such an arrangement. the UK government would have certainly benefited massively if it could set up such an arrangement and get everyone to go along with it. but it seemed to be neither willing not able to do it. so perhaps brexit is an unsolvable problem, in which case whoopsie!

One can resent the government for not bowing to this, but only in the same way that one can resent the staff of a bank for resisting bank robbers: "An awfully inconvenient response to my extraordinary, unprecedented demand."

a nonsense comparison.

The same applies. Permitting a segment of a country to hive itself off into another jurisdiction strikes at the heart of a state's mortality.

firstly, lol northern ireland.

secondly, the idea was for the whole UK to remain in the single market and custom unions. the fact that scotland voted against brexit was ignored and the fact that result was a 52-48% result was ignored. the obvious choice was an EEA compromise, but this was dismissed out of hand. we are now seeing the effects of this.

There is no reason other than 'it feels nice and right' for this to have been considered.

again, nonsense. the EU allows input from all its members in trade deals. belgium allows its regions input in trade deals. special bodies from various industries have gotten input in trade deals. it is entirely sensible to allow the devolved administrations a say in negotiations, especially when those negotiations involve whether certain powers will be devolved or reserved. the reason that the devolved administrations are not given input is because westminster does not feel like giving them it.

Again, any old pressure group demanding authority and powers over government matters is liable to be turned away with bemused affection. This is not a truth and reconciliation committee, where a group can suggest it would be nice to have far-reaching powers, and expect them to be simply accommodated.

the devolved administrations are not any old pressure group.

Such a decision would have overturned the very idea of a legitimate democratic mandate.

no. it was a decision made by westminster because their input would have been inconvenient given that government policy is to go hard in and fuck the rest. it is absolutely absurd that you are presenting not telling the democratically elected governments of parts of the UK to fuck off as somehow undemocratic.

Moreover, there is no initiating prerogative for the Scottish government to demand a referendum, no God-given right on-demand.

yes. scotland as a nation is forced to beg england for a say on its own independence. like i said, it is pathetic. the UK will bleat on about once in a generation to stop any referndum happening, even in the next 5 years when the people of scotland would support once, out of political convenience for itself.

This is not a partisan thing, simply the result of how laws work. Were the government to have acted as though they were bound by subordinate bodies, they would have been open to legal challenge, it is so silly.

again, that is the beauty of parliamentary sovereignty. there is absolutely nothing stopping them going "huh every devolved administration hates this bill maybe we should rethink it and take their desires into account". they just didn't do it because they don't want to. and saying "well actually we have no legal obligation to do that!" is not a reason for not doing it. it is an excuse to get away with doing something you always intended to do.

Talking about Scotland being ridden over roughshod in negotiations implies the Scottish government was at the negotiations. They were not, so this could not have happened.

consider roughshod as synonym for "fucked over". i am going to assume you already understand why "well how could we fuck you over if we never even let you in!" is a an argument without merit.

All such lamentation powerfully mischaracterizes the relationship.

as mentioned above, even if all of this is complete nonsense with scotland living in fairy land you still have a very big problem. and it is a problem that is not going to be solved by saying "well um actually you have no voice, so fuck you?".

in order that we can pretend it has been wronged by maltreatment

scotland and its government have been treated like garbage throughout these proceedings. that you can produce some legal document showing you have the right to treat them garbage does not change that.

is to suggest that there has been any slight or injury wrought against Scotland

there has. as i near the end of the post, i notice you ignored the part about the SNP is treated like shit in the house of commons. i preume that this is because you know this is true, but can't come up with some reason why technically parliament is allowed to treat the SNP like shit so it doen't really count somehow.

There was no state with whom the EU could have conversed.

i said the respective parliaments and executives have shown great sympathy for each other. what you have said does not change this.

People who understood the gravity of the actions were shocked when demands were lodged for extraordinary powers that went beyond all but the most balkanized precedents of countries through history.

utterly silly. again, let us take a moment to review what the scottish government suggested.

-not going through with huge constitutional change unless all nations approve of it
-allowing national governments input into trade agreements
-asking for national governments to have the right to hold their own independence referendums

the second one is not unprecedented, since belgium is a trvial example. the first is a bit extreme, but frankly i have absolute confidence that i could find an example of it were i to try. the third is a bit weird. i still think i could probably find an example if i tried hard enough though. that said, all of this assumes that i do not cheat and use the EU as an example. in which case the EU gives precedent for all of these.

and again, before you say it, there is absolutely nothing stopping parliament from doing any of that. "i don't want to and you can't legally make me" is not a real reason. if i had to make a TL;DR for this whole post it would be that. there is no reason that the closeness of the vote or the views of the devolved administrations were not respected or taken into account other than that westminster did not want to, and no amount of "well you can't make them" will prevent them for being criticized for that decision.

But I guess I have no arbitrary nationalist teleology to pursue, so how could I?

je suis pickle rick

The problem with all off this and why it's totally irrelevant is the SNP have one goal. Everything they do is to further that goal. Pandering to such bleating is not going to make them go away or will it leave you in the place you would prefer to be in.

The SNP have really made themselves get to the point of being ignored by their constant moaning whilst at the same time by many accounts performing quite badly at actually running Scotland. It's got to the point I think many people in England don't give a fuck and that's because of the SNP not anything else, you can't be constructive with that tyoe of destructive force and I think people in England are waking up to that whilst at the same time less bothered about Scotland in the union. More of a we might as well do what we want and if they stay they stay if they go they go but pandering neither stops the constant independence calls nor gives us what we want.

So being ignored, you can lay that at the SNPs own door really. If they weren't in charge and going on about independence all the time people outside of Scotland might have listened.

[Souseiseki]

And so the gammon-flavoured lunacy begins.

Especially since a lot of those are either impossible (can't claim 200 miles off the coast without infringing on other countries territory), nothing we needed to leave the EU to do (Legal Aid, etc), or just based on the failure to understand that we're not America.

sovereign citizens

pretty sure citizens are not sovereign my dude

god-given

lol

restore our freedom of speech eroded by hate speech laws

restoring freedom of speech would actually be good, except 1) lol freedom of speech in the UK 2) the knights who say N aren't interested in real freedom of speech anyway

[Great Confederacy of Commonwealth States]

Maybe people would take these predictions more seriously if a certain sect weren't constantly miserable and doomsaying about how awful the country and its direction is. Just saying, that's how a lot of the remoaner stuff comes across, especially in the light of the outward hatred for the UK many of them displayed.

You know peter hitchens and his constant "I'm sad because everything is falling apart and getting worse and this is another example of it" parade that never lets up?

Does that convince you that we should become a 1920s style British Christian theocracy again? No?

Hmm. I'm sure it'll work when you do it.

If you're miserable about literally everything that's happening in the country and say it's more evidence of how terrible everyone is, maybe the problem isn't everyone else. Thinking we're travelling the wrong way on some issues is fine. Thinking that about all issues on top of a hatred for the culture itself and a condescendion toward everyone?

Christ, just move. You can leave you know.

Which is exactly what one could have said to Eurosceptics in 2015, so this is not exactly durable, is it?

[Rojava Free State]

Well, it happened. After many many years, the UK finally left the EU.

[Souseiseki]

The problem with all off this and why it's totally irrelevant is the SNP have one goal. Everything they do is to further that goal. Pandering to such bleating is not going to make them go away or will it leave you in the place you would prefer to be in.

The SNP have really made themselves get to the point of being ignored by their constant moaning whilst at the same time by many accounts performing quite badly at actually running Scotland. It's got to the point I think many people in England don't give a fuck and that's because of the SNP not anything else, you can't be constructive with that tyoe of destructive force and I think people in England are waking up to that whilst at the same time less bothered about Scotland in the union. More of a we might as well do what we want and if they stay they stay if they go they go but pandering neither stops the constant independence calls nor gives us what we want.

So being ignored, you can lay that at the SNPs own door really. If they weren't in charge and going on about independence all the time people outside of Scotland might have listened.

wait did you just try a "the reason england ignores scotland is actually scotlands fault" on me

[Ostroeuropa]

Maybe people would take these predictions more seriously if a certain sect weren't constantly miserable and doomsaying about how awful the country and its direction is. Just saying, that's how a lot of the remoaner stuff comes across, especially in the light of the outward hatred for the UK many of them displayed.

You know peter hitchens and his constant "I'm sad because everything is falling apart and getting worse and this is another example of it" parade that never lets up?

Does that convince you that we should become a 1920s style British Christian theocracy again? No?

Hmm. I'm sure it'll work when you do it.

If you're miserable about literally everything that's happening in the country and say it's more evidence of how terrible everyone is, maybe the problem isn't everyone else. Thinking we're travelling the wrong way on some issues is fine. Thinking that about all issues on top of a hatred for the culture itself and a condescendion toward everyone?

Christ, just move. You can leave you know.

Which is exactly what one could have said to Eurosceptics in 2015, so this is not exactly durable, is it?

Eurosceptics weren't so pervasively dominated by being miserable and doomsaying. They got angry instead and said we have a bright future when we defeat the foe.

[Rojava Free State]

Yeah because the EU is just so eager to pick up the non existent economies of Northern Ireland and Scotland and piss off Spain in the process.

They'll leave and just end up in the same mess as the UK is currently in except even worse.

NI won't be in the same mess, they'll just become part of Ireland. As for Scotland....yeah, I'm not sure Sturgeon realises that Madrid's a bigger obstacle than Westminster ever was. They still refuse to recognise Kosovo for fear of being seen as hypocrites.

NI should have rejoined Ireland long ago. Unfortunately a large population of protestants from ancestral lines of British origin still reside in NI, and considering they had a 30 year civil war over whether they should remain in the UK or reunite with the republic, Brexit is only gonna renew those tensions

[Ostroeuropa]

The problem with all off this and why it's totally irrelevant is the SNP have one goal. Everything they do is to further that goal. Pandering to such bleating is not going to make them go away or will it leave you in the place you would prefer to be in.

The SNP have really made themselves get to the point of being ignored by their constant moaning whilst at the same time by many accounts performing quite badly at actually running Scotland. It's got to the point I think many people in England don't give a fuck and that's because of the SNP not anything else, you can't be constructive with that tyoe of destructive force and I think people in England are waking up to that whilst at the same time less bothered about Scotland in the union. More of a we might as well do what we want and if they stay they stay if they go they go but pandering neither stops the constant independence calls nor gives us what we want.

So being ignored, you can lay that at the SNPs own door really. If they weren't in charge and going on about independence all the time people outside of Scotland might have listened.

wait did you just try a "the reason england ignores scotland is actually scotlands fault" on me

Idk. He's pretty much right in that appeasement with the left wing on issues doesn't work and they merely use it to pursue a goal you don't agree with while refusing to compromise. That could also arguably be why the right wing decided, fuck it, we're going to behave the same way beginning with Thatcher.

I certainly wouldn't acknowledge feminists or other progressive demands. Not one inch and so on. If he views the SNP as behaving similarly there's no point in giving them anything they ask for. Same as the unions run by Marxists trying to overthrow society during the thatcher era. Same as feminists and their anti-male crusade. Ideologues can't be reasoned with, they are best ignored.

If Scotland wants more powers, elect people who want more powers as an end goal. Don't elect people willing to be disingenuous about it to further some other agenda.

You know the right wing "strategy" of "We step to the right, then demand you compromise, then we step to the right, then demand you compromise"?

Do you think people should entertain that, or see it for what it is?

Here's the kicker;

It's not a right wing strategy. They appropriated it after they got sick of the left wing doing it.

[New Bremerton]

Well if you do leave and join the EU, I'm sure you can look forward to more nice gestures like this while the ECB's institutionally imposed austerity and your resulting lack of monetary sovereignty slowly erodes your economy.

That's funny, considering the EU is the largest economic entity in the world ATM.

The UK needs them more than they need you~

The United States is the largest economic entity in the world ATM.

[Souseiseki]

"just move" is not practical and you know it. and it's especially not practical when we just lost our right to live and work in the EU.

It's not practical as a response to a temporary issue or losing on a particular front, but if everything the country is doing makes you miserable you'd be happier elsewhere. The constant negativity from the left might be why we keep losing elections, yeah?

Remember Blair and how he framed things?

i mean i've already said repeatedly that in order to win elections in this country you need to trick the electorate into doing what's best for them so i'm not a stranger to this idea. the curious part is that if you examine the arguments for brexit and the political climate behind it, it seems that the british people are quite aware that there's something not quite right in britain. they just can't pinpoint what it is. and of course you're not really allowed to say what it is because they'll call you a shithead and slander you for talking down to them.

go present a positive version of britain in 2020 and make it stick. i'll wait.

[Gormwood]

That's funny, considering the EU United States is the largest economic entity in the world ATM.

The UK needs them more than they need you~

The United States is the largest economic entity in the world ATM.

All it requires is giving in to American demands and becoming an Ancapistan where healthcare and medicine costs a fortune but you can get guns along with fish and chips.