American healthcare is going to fix itself

[Celritannia]

The fact that the UK appears at the front of that list proves how much of a joke it is.

A little bit about their track record.

Also, governments tend to be way better at fudging these sorts of tests than private organizations. Private organizations are concerned about customers, not some stupid international standards.

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/22/medical ... erica.html

Just saying...

From your article:

According to Dr. John James, a patient-safety advocate and author of A Sea of Broken Hearts: Patient Rights in a Dangerous, Profit-Driven Health Care System, patients need to take charge. “There needs to be a balance between the provider community and the patients. It is not an even relationship at all.”

Seems like private healthcare without regulation was to blame. Without the balance between doctor and patient in the US due to privatisation, it is a danger.

[Celritannia]

Most of that is incorrect.
The main problem for the NHS is due to the Tory Government wanting to privatise and remove vital hospital departments from certain areas.

The point is, every healthcare system on Earth is garbage. The US healthcare system hasn't really been private since the sixties anyway. Calling it private is like calling Cuba capitalist. Ultimately, US healthcare is screwed up for a number of reasons, but every single one would not be possible if it weren't for the government. In a free market society, health insurance probably wouldn't even be a thing, just like food insurance isn't a thing. People would just pay out of pocket. And it would be cheap.

The lack of government is the very reason the US healthcare system is a failure.
Why do you think every other developed country has some form of Universal Healthcare?

And many people, like in the US, would die without being able to afford health insurance if Government didn't step in.

[Fartsniffage]

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/02/22/medical ... erica.html

Just saying...

From your article:

According to Dr. John James, a patient-safety advocate and author of A Sea of Broken Hearts: Patient Rights in a Dangerous, Profit-Driven Health Care System, patients need to take charge. “There needs to be a balance between the provider community and the patients. It is not an even relationship at all.”

Seems like private healthcare without regulation was to blame. Without the balance between doctor and patient in the US due to privatisation, it is a danger.

What do you mean?

[Celritannia]

From your article:



Seems like private healthcare without regulation was to blame. Without the balance between doctor and patient in the US due to privatisation, it is a danger.

What do you mean?

Sorry, I worded that terribly.
I mean to say, private insurance companies and privatised hospitals are unable to be fully accountable to the patient.

[Celritannia]

Most of that is incorrect.
The main problem for the NHS is due to the Tory Government wanting to privatise and remove vital hospital departments from certain areas.

The point is, every healthcare system on Earth is garbage. The US healthcare system hasn't really been private since the sixties anyway. Calling it private is like calling Cuba capitalist. Ultimately, US healthcare is screwed up for a number of reasons, but every single one would not be possible if it weren't for the government. In a free market society, health insurance probably wouldn't even be a thing, just like food insurance isn't a thing. People would just pay out of pocket. And it would be cheap.

Also:

https://theguardian.com/us-news/2017/ju ... rage-death

https://news.harvard.edu/gazette/story/ ... -coverage/

https://www.forbes.com/sites/johngoodma ... ance-kill/

So, it seems like high priced insurance will lead to more deaths in the US.

[Dazchan]

The Canadian government didn’t have to pay to develop these drugs, and are ripping off the pharmaceutical company. So the Americans have to offset the loss of profit.

If you’re so concerned about that, why are you paying the subsidized Canadian price for your wife’s medication, instead of the market price in the US?

[Saiwania]

In a free market society, health insurance probably wouldn't even be a thing, just like food insurance isn't a thing. People would just pay out of pocket. And it would be cheap.

I don't see how it would be cheap, unless hospitals could deny certain people emergency treatment and if it were the case that medical school wasn't expensive like it is now. Most people who go into the medical field, do so with the expectation of becoming rich by default, via getting a high salary for their skilled career path.

The fact is that American hospitals operate under a policy that is completely irrational economically speaking, for silly moral reasons. The law in the US makes hospitals give emergency treatment to anyone who comes in, regardless of their ability to pay.

If a bum or poor person gets their life saved, but can't pay- it means the amount gets passed onto other people's bills. For this reason, the bills hospitals charge often aren't real. The typical medical expense includes lots of extra padding, to make up for any budget shortfalls. It doesn't actually cost $800 for an ambulence to drive someone to the hospital, but the extra $700 or so is included anyways to cover for other people's unpaid medical debts.

My local hospital charges $5,000+ for example, to drain someone's stomach if they have ascites because of liver disease. The outpatient building across the street, charges only $500 for the same damn procedure. So its clear anyways, that medical providers charge way beyond the real cost and are ripping people and insurers off because they can.

[The Black Forrest]

Most of that is incorrect.
The main problem for the NHS is due to the Tory Government wanting to privatise and remove vital hospital departments from certain areas.

The point is, every healthcare system on Earth is garbage. The US healthcare system hasn't really been private since the sixties anyway. Calling it private is like calling Cuba capitalist. Ultimately, US healthcare is screwed up for a number of reasons, but every single one would not be possible if it weren't for the government. In a free market society, health insurance probably wouldn't even be a thing, just like food insurance isn't a thing. People would just pay out of pocket. And it would be cheap.

Oh for FFS. Free market will not work. You will see collusion at best. Even then how are you going to drive down prices. A surgeon who charges a great deal or Juans surgery practice for $999.

[Drumon]

Almost every study on the subject shows US healthcare outcomes are similar or inferior to the rest of the developed world.

The prices are due grossly inflated doctor salaries, general cartel like business practices, and inflation resulting from overbilling insurance companies.

And most studies are shit peddled by communists and Europeans.

There is some level of issue due to simple profiteering on the distance between insurance companies and the medical field. But pretending it's all just due to corporate greed is always propaganda.

If you have no studies what on earth do you base your opinion on? Patriotism?

The US healthcare is objectively worse by almost every conceivable metric. There are many reasons for it being such a disaster. It should speak by itself that no other nation or healthcare group in the world attempts to base their model on the American system.

[Drumon]

No, it does not:

https://fr.april-international.com/en/h ... re-systems

The fact that the UK appears at the front of that list proves how much of a joke it is.

A little bit about their track record.

Also, governments tend to be way better at fudging these sorts of tests than private organizations. Private organizations are concerned about customers, not some stupid international standards.

Show one private organization that says the US is better.

[Drumon]

In a free market society, health insurance probably wouldn't even be a thing, just like food insurance isn't a thing. People would just pay out of pocket. And it would be cheap.

I don't see how it would be cheap, unless hospitals could deny certain people emergency treatment and if it were the case that medical school wasn't expensive like it is now. Most people who go into the medical field, do so with the expectation of becoming rich by default, via getting a high salary for their skilled career path.

The fact is that American hospitals operate under a policy that is completely irrational economically speaking, for silly moral reasons. The law in the US makes hospitals give emergency treatment to anyone who comes in, regardless of their ability to pay.

If a bum or poor person gets their life saved, but can't pay- it means the amount gets passed onto other people's bills. For this reason, the bills hospitals charge often aren't real. The typical medical expense includes lots of extra padding, to make up for any budget shortfalls. It doesn't actually cost $800 for an ambulence to drive someone to the hospital, but the extra $700 or so is included anyways to cover for other people's unpaid medical debts.

My local hospital charges $5,000+ for example, to drain someone's stomach if they have ascites because of liver disease. The outpatient building across the street, charges only $500 for the same damn procedure. So its clear anyways, that medical providers charge way beyond the real cost and are ripping people and insurers off because they can.

This is not the main cause of healthcare inflation nor has it ever been. It is a minority of hospital costs, iirc somewhere around 12%.

Doctors salaries have to be cut, no way around it. They artifically constrict supply of doctors via government lobbying to demand high salaries.

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

You have to be pretty fucking low to hope sick people are ripped off so that you can win an election.

*THIS*

Like, what the fuck OP? I'm all for a President Sanders but Jesus Christ this isn't a game. People are going into debt for the rest of their lives, ffs.

[Saiwania]

This is not the main cause of healthcare inflation nor has it ever been. It is a minority of hospital costs, iirc somewhere around 12%. Doctors salaries have to be cut, no way around it. They artifically constrict supply of doctors via government lobbying to demand high salaries.

Why shouldn't medical professionals get paid well if the cost of their medical school is very expensive? Most people after all, don't have the mental fortitude or discipline to put up with 8+ years of university education along with every other requirement like a residency. If there is a massive opportunity cost to going into that industry, the pay has to be high enough for people to want to try going into it.

The Hippocratic Oath (if we're being realistic) is mostly feel good nonsense. People become a Dentist, Surgeon, or whatever for one primary reason only: to set themself up for life in terms of financial security. These are people who are looking to rake in the money, and they usually have the leverage to get what they want in terms of pay. Given that most people don't do all that they can to avoid the need for getting medical help.

If we really want doctors to be paid less like what happens in other countries, we have to reduce the barriers of entry and requirements for medical school. Maybe letting people only need 4 years for more medical jobs.

[Drumon]

This is not the main cause of healthcare inflation nor has it ever been. It is a minority of hospital costs, iirc somewhere around 12%. Doctors salaries have to be cut, no way around it. They artifically constrict supply of doctors via government lobbying to demand high salaries.

Why shouldn't medical professionals get paid well if the cost of their medical school is very expensive? Most people after all, don't have the mental fortitude or discipline to put up with 8+ years of university education along with every other requirement like a residency. If there is a massive opportunity cost to going into that industry, the pay has to be high enough for people to want to try going into it.

The Hippocratic Oath (if we're being realistic) is mostly feel good nonsense. People become a Dentist, Surgeon, or whatever for one primary reason only: to set themself up for life in terms of financial security. These are people who are looking to rake in the money, and they usually have the leverage to get what they want in terms of pay.

If we really want doctors to be paid less like what happens in other countries, we have to reduce the barriers of entry and requirements for medical school. Maybe letting people only need 4 years for more medical jobs.

Because someone's pay should based on their productive market value, not the feel-good nonsense you dismiss like an edgelord yet essentially endorse for why they should be paid. The AMA deliberately lobbies the government to restrict medical residencies, and enact onerous licensing requirements for immigrant doctors, to restrict the supply artifically and inflate doctor salaries.

Doctors are not entitled money for simply going to school for a long time. Their skills are not as scarce as the AMA leads you to believe.

[Saiwania]

Doctors are not entitled money for simply going to school for a long time. Their skills are not as scarce as the AMA leads you to believe.

No one will want to become a doctor if going to medical school is going to leave them worse off financially. Blame the 11 to 14 year education requirement and the fact that people can sue doctors for malpractice which enables defensive medicine. Their skills are scarce in that context, which certainly justifies a high salary.

[Vetalia]

The Canadian government didn’t have to pay to develop these drugs, and are ripping off the pharmaceutical company. So the Americans have to offset the loss of profit.

If the reason is recouping lost profits on the cost of developing the drug, why has the cost of insulin, a generic drug developed in the 1920s whose inventor sold the patent to a university for $1, risen more than 10-fold over the past 30 years? It's different for newly developed drugs for which the developer holds a patent, I fully agree they should be able to charge what they want to recoup the cost and generate a profit, but for generics it is nothing more than price gouging due to the total lack of a counterweight in negotiating prices.

[Drumon]

Doctors are not entitled money for simply going to school for a long time. Their skills are not as scarce as the AMA leads you to believe.

No one will want to become a doctor if going to medical school is going to leave them worse off financially. Blame the 8 year requirement and the fact that people can sue doctors for malpractice which enables defensive medicine. Their skills are scarce to some extent, which certainly justifies a high salary.

Their skills are artificially scarce.

It can still be a highly paid profession with the ridiculous wankery it is now.

[Vetalia]

No one will want to become a doctor if going to medical school is going to leave them worse off financially. Blame the 8 year requirement and the fact that people can sue doctors for malpractice which enables defensive medicine. Their skills are scarce to some extent, which certainly justifies a high salary.

Their skills are artificially scarce.

It can still be a highly paid profession with the ridiculous wankery it is now.

I would also point out the high cost of medical school in the US is more a product of the utterly nonsensical, quite frankly criminal, student loan system.

[Iwassoclose]

You have to be pretty fucking low to hope sick people are ripped off so that you can win an election.

*THIS*

Like, what the fuck OP? I'm all for a President Sanders but Jesus Christ this isn't a game. People are going into debt for the rest of their lives, ffs.

Wether Sanders becomes president or not is irrelevant. Him being on the forefront of the candidate race right now already pushes the idea of universal healthcare into the mainstream consciousness. I am looking at things in a bigger scale, this current system is eventually going to destroy itself and the people will pick the alternative that is universal healthcare regardless of politics to try something different.

People already pay money every paycheck to insurance companies who play middleman to access healthcare services while also paying taxes. Eventually they are going to see that there is no need for the middle man.

[Saiwania]

I would also point out the high cost of medical school in the US is more a product of the utterly nonsensical, quite frankly criminal, student loan system.

What is nonsensical about it? Plenty of people manage to pay off their loans if they know what they're doing.

If anything is to blame, its the US federal government being in the business of giving out student loans to just anyone or guaranteeing student loan debt, and when certain people inevitably default because they couldn't finish college or chose the wrong degree for where they live, it results in higher tuitions for everyone across the board. There is no downward pressure on US colleges, other than people increasingly deciding to not go because its overrated in terms of the economic benefits and costs too much.

In the mid 20th century, college was rare enough amongst the population to have real value. But now, a college education is significantly less valuable outside of a few specific degrees whose industries absolutely require it, such as the legal or medical fields.

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

*THIS*

Like, what the fuck OP? I'm all for a President Sanders but Jesus Christ this isn't a game. People are going into debt for the rest of their lives, ffs.

Wether Sanders becomes president or not is irrelevant. Him being on the forefront of the candidate race right now already pushes the idea of universal healthcare into the mainstream consciousness. I am looking at things in a bigger scale, this current system is eventually going to destroy itself and the people will pick the alternative that is universal healthcare regardless of politics to try something different.

People already pay money every paycheck to insurance companies who play middleman to access healthcare services while also paying taxes. Eventually they are going to see that there is no need for the middle man.

What you fail to realize is that people came to this conclusion long before Sanders started running for president.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

Wether Sanders becomes president or not is irrelevant. Him being on the forefront of the candidate race right now already pushes the idea of universal healthcare into the mainstream consciousness. I am looking at things in a bigger scale, this current system is eventually going to destroy itself and the people will pick the alternative that is universal healthcare regardless of politics to try something different.

People already pay money every paycheck to insurance companies who play middleman to access healthcare services while also paying taxes. Eventually they are going to see that there is no need for the middle man.

What you fail to realize is that people came to this conclusion long before Sanders started running for president.

And didn't do Universal Healthcare despite having the mandate and the supermajority. I don't expect better in the future, I expect Obamacare 2.0 and 3.0 … ie marginal improvements in what is a huge and established industry. Step 2 would be the public option, then 3 would make the public option so cheap that private insurers couldn't compete (except perhaps at the luxury end, optional extra cover for flowers in your hospital room etc).

A marginal improvement in this case would be regulation so that no individual pays more than the lowest rate paid by any insurer. Just a start of course.

[Celritannia]

I would also point out the high cost of medical school in the US is more a product of the utterly nonsensical, quite frankly criminal, student loan system.

What is nonsensical about it? Plenty of people manage to pay off their loans if they know what they're doing.

If anything is to blame, its the US federal government being in the business of giving out student loans to just anyone or guaranteeing student loan debt, and when certain people inevitably default because they couldn't finish college or chose the wrong degree for where they live, it results in higher tuitions for everyone across the board. There is no downward pressure on US colleges, other than people increasingly deciding to not go because its overrated in terms of the economic benefits and costs too much.

In the mid 20th century, college was rare enough amongst the population to have real value. But now, a college education is significantly less valuable outside of a few specific degrees whose industries absolutely require it, such as the legal or medical fields.

Sadly, while cost of living and education went up, wages did not.
This left students since the mid 2000s with more student debt that those before.

Also remember, certain jobs, such as the medical professions, require a university degree.

[Vetalia]

What is nonsensical about it? Plenty of people manage to pay off their loans if they know what they're doing.

If anything is to blame, its the US federal government being in the business of giving out student loans to just anyone or guaranteeing student loan debt, and when certain people inevitably default because they couldn't finish college or chose the wrong degree for where they live, it results in higher tuitions for everyone across the board. There is no downward pressure on US colleges, other than people increasingly deciding to not go because its overrated in terms of the economic benefits and costs too much.

In the mid 20th century, college was rare enough amongst the population to have real value. But now, a college education is significantly less valuable outside of a few specific degrees whose industries absolutely require it, such as the legal or medical fields.

What I was getting at is exactly what you noted in your second paragraph.

The current system not only guarantees federal student loan debt resulting in no risk of loss and the debt itself is still virtually impossible to discharge via bankruptcy whether federal or private. Even worse, before 2010 it also guaranteed private loans which only made matters that much worse. The colleges get the money up front, so there is virtually no incentive not to endlessly raise tuition, bloat administration with high-paying sinecures and force students to take on more debt. This is especially true for useless degrees that do nothing but bury the students in debt with no real prospects of future earnings, serving only as a cash cow to funnel more money to the universities.

This is made even worse when combined with the indoctrination at the high school level that the only option for a viable future is to go to a 4-year college and the denigration of equally viable vocational options for post-secondary education.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

I would also point out the high cost of medical school in the US is more a product of the utterly nonsensical, quite frankly criminal, student loan system.

What is nonsensical about it?

Well for starters you don't know the interest rate you'll be trying to finance, when you take out the loan.

Plenty of people manage to pay off their loans if they know what they're doing.

If anything is to blame, its the US federal government being in the business of giving out student loans to just anyone or guaranteeing student loan debt, and when certain people inevitably default because they couldn't finish college or chose the wrong degree for where they live, it results in higher tuitions for everyone across the board. There is no downward pressure on US colleges, other than people increasingly deciding to not go because its overrated in terms of the economic benefits and costs too much.

In the mid 20th century, college was rare enough amongst the population to have real value. But now, a college education is significantly less valuable outside of a few specific degrees whose industries absolutely require it, such as the legal or medical fields.

In the mid 20th century there was no foreign competition, so "learn on the job" was good enough for most jobs. But it was still a distinct advantage to graduate high school. Well the base of required knowledge to enter a good paying job is wider now, it's 14 or 15 years of education instead of 10 or 12.