American healthcare is going to fix itself

[Nobel Hobos 2]

Also remember, certain jobs, such as the medical professions, require a university degree.

We don't call that unionism, but that's exactly what it is. Backed by government too.

Which brings us back to the thread subject, via American Healthcare Costs Too Much. But only the wildest of liberatarians want to deregulate medicine.

[New haven america]

How you implement it is also a right. Taxation is theft, so universal healthcare would be a violation of private property rights. Additionally, universal healthcare does not make it more affordable when you look at every aspect of it.

Healthcare is not a right. If it was, that would mean you have the right to be served by others Aka slavery. You have the right to SEEK healthcare. There is a fundamental difference.

So you agree that we should also get rid of publicly funded police and fire departments?

Because that's a fantastic idea!

[Saiwania]

In the mid 20th century there was no foreign competition, so "learn on the job" was good enough for most jobs. But it was still a distinct advantage to graduate high school. Well the base of required knowledge to enter a good paying job is wider now, it's 14 or 15 years of education instead of 10 or 12.

I disagree. The economy in the US is not in the same place as was the case in 2010. More major US employers aren't requiring degrees anymore, as industries increasingly find that a candidate with more direct work experience in a similar job or role, is better than a candidate who only has university education or certifications but no real world experience.

Success in business or a successful trade skill/internship is more effective than going to college for 4+ years and is substantially less expensive in many cases.

[Drumon]

In the mid 20th century there was no foreign competition, so "learn on the job" was good enough for most jobs. But it was still a distinct advantage to graduate high school. Well the base of required knowledge to enter a good paying job is wider now, it's 14 or 15 years of education instead of 10 or 12.

I disagree. The economy in the US is not in the same place as was the case in 2010. More major US employers aren't requiring degrees anymore, as industries increasingly find that a candidate with more direct work experience in a similar job or role, is better than a candidate who only has university education or certifications but no real world experience.

Success in business or a successful trade skill/internship is more effective than going to college for 4+ years and is substantially less expensive in many cases.

Having actually lived with and worked with tradesmen, working in the trades is substantially shittier than the internet suggest, and the pay is far worse.

[Nobel Hobos 2]

In the mid 20th century there was no foreign competition, so "learn on the job" was good enough for most jobs. But it was still a distinct advantage to graduate high school. Well the base of required knowledge to enter a good paying job is wider now, it's 14 or 15 years of education instead of 10 or 12.

I disagree. The economy in the US is not in the same place as was the case in 2010. More major US employers aren't requiring degrees anymore, as industries increasingly find that a candidate with more direct work experience in a similar job or role, is better than a candidate who only has university education or certifications but no real world experience.

Success in business or a successful trade skill/internship is more effective than going to college for 4+ years and is substantially less expensive in many cases.

If that's so then the problem will solve itself. Colleges will have to cut fees to attract the few who (mistakenly?) think more years of education will advance their careers more over a lifetime than the same number of years getting industry experience. You can tell I don't really believe that, I hope, it's just for the sake of argument. The problem should solve itself ...

[Nobel Hobos 2]

I disagree. The economy in the US is not in the same place as was the case in 2010. More major US employers aren't requiring degrees anymore, as industries increasingly find that a candidate with more direct work experience in a similar job or role, is better than a candidate who only has university education or certifications but no real world experience.

Success in business or a successful trade skill/internship is more effective than going to college for 4+ years and is substantially less expensive in many cases.

Having actually lived with and worked with tradesmen, working in the trades is substantially shittier than the internet suggest, and the pay is far worse.

Apprenticeship is pretty shitty I know, but I like the look of a Builder's license. What's so bad about it, unpredictable hours, physical risks ..?

[Saiwania]

Having actually lived with and worked with tradesmen, working in the trades is substantially shittier than the internet suggest, and the pay is far worse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qN_9f4HlEqQ

If you don't believe me, watch this video. It is David Pakman (a super Liberal type) who is all in for "everyone going to college" conceding that the Era of College is on course to possibly ending soon. The benefits of university is waning across the board to where people increasingly aren't going, which means employers increasingly can't demand only candidates with degrees anymore.

Its true that many college/universities in the US going forward, are going to have to close or shut down via not being profitable because they have to charge too much for their education. I foresee only primarily legal or medical colleges surviving or the colleges devoted to some other specialist field (which is still highly in demand) such as aeronautical engineering.

[Cetacea]

Wow, the free market really does self correct itself ...

And what I mean by that is they are gonna price out the majority of the people and change the paradigm of how the right view insurance and public health care.

A few months back I found out that recently there has been a sharp increase in hospitals suing people. Even when people do have insurance, the copay is so high that they cant pay and get chased by the hospital for the money. The reason of course is the games that insurance companies and hospitals play by overcharging and then negotiating a smaller payment for the bill has created a cycle where prices of services and goods inflate rapidly. The prices have reached so high that even when the insurance covers most of it, the bills still come to thousands of dollars and most people cannot cover that.

Before the conservative's reason for eschewing public or universal healthcare was that they already paid into their insurance and that further taxation for healthcare would be a deal breaker for any plans to create said universal healthcare service. Now however with the rapid rise of hospitals suing patients I hope they continue. I hope they become what Trump is to politics and normalize what seemed like radical ideas thus creating an environment where people like Sanders can thrive and get support for what used to be considered outlier ideas such as universal health care.

Do you agree?

[Samadhi]

Also remember, certain jobs, such as the medical professions, require a university degree.

We don't call that unionism, but that's exactly what it is. Backed by government too.

Which brings us back to the thread subject, via American Healthcare Costs Too Much. But only the wildest of liberatarians want to deregulate medicine.

Don't call me a libertarian, they're dirty statists.

[The Black Forrest]

In the mid 20th century there was no foreign competition, so "learn on the job" was good enough for most jobs. But it was still a distinct advantage to graduate high school. Well the base of required knowledge to enter a good paying job is wider now, it's 14 or 15 years of education instead of 10 or 12.

I disagree. The economy in the US is not in the same place as was the case in 2010. More major US employers aren't requiring degrees anymore, as industries increasingly find that a candidate with more direct work experience in a similar job or role, is better than a candidate who only has university education or certifications but no real world experience.

Success in business or a successful trade skill/internship is more effective than going to college for 4+ years and is substantially less expensive in many cases.

Actually I am seeing more degree requirements as I job hunt. Some of it is geared towards age discrimination....”new graduate”

[Drumon]

Having actually lived with and worked with tradesmen, working in the trades is substantially shittier than the internet suggest, and the pay is far worse.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qN_9f4HlEqQ

If you don't believe me, watch this video. It is David Pakman (a super Liberal type) who is all in for "everyone going to college" conceding that the Era of College is on course to possibly ending soon. The benefits of university is waning across the board to where people increasingly aren't going, which means employers increasingly can't demand only candidates with degrees anymore.

Its true that many college/universities in the US going forward, are going to have to close or shut down via not being profitable because they have to charge too much for their education. I foresee only primarily legal or medical colleges surviving or the colleges devoted to some other specialist field (which is still highly in demand) such as aeronautical engineering.

Sorry man, the stats speak for themselves. Even gender studies majors make more over their lifetime than most tradesmen. Most apprenticeships start fast food level wages, journeyman make 15-18 hour unless they are out in the old fields (dying industry). Only business owners make white collar equivalent salaries and they often fail.

[Saiwania]

Sorry man, the stats speak for themselves. Even gender studies majors make more over their lifetime than most tradesmen. Most apprenticeships start fast food level wages, journeyman make 15-18 hour unless they are out in the old fields (dying industry). Only business owners make white collar equivalent salaries and they often fail.

No they don't. What happens with people that have a useless degree, is that they have student loan debt that they can't pay off in any efficient manner. It holds them back more than might've been the case if they went to a good enough trade school and picked up something in demand. Unless they live in some super Liberal locale that doesn't value real work as much.

You're not supposed to make the full wage on an apprenticeship anyways- because after all, you're still learning the job and all it entails. You're not fully available and competent in the business to make a lot of profit for the employer on that basis.

[Sundiata]

Beyond the provision of a public option, government has no place in healthcare.

Didn't you claim to be a pious christian helping other people?

I ask because such message seems more worthy of a radical anarchist who doesn't care about other people, or something like that.

I support universal healthcare.

[True Refuge]

You have to be pretty fucking low to hope sick people are ripped off so that you can win an election.

You’d hate accelerationism then.

[Page]

You have to be pretty fucking low to hope sick people are ripped off so that you can win an election.

It's not really a thing you have to hope for, it's already a thing.

[LimaUniformNovemberAlpha]

Insurance is a way to smooth out people's risk factors. For instance, insurance for a house someplace especially prone to natural disasters is more expensive than insurance in a place less prone. The probability of a natural disaster can't be 0% in both, but can't be 100% in both, but they can't be precisely equal either, so everyone taking the same risk pools their money and those who have the bad luck of getting hit get compensated.

But with illness and injury, the probability is 100%, because if you don't get sick or injured by circumstance, you get sick or injured due to old age.

There is no reason for health insurance to exist. At all.

Umm we have life insurance too.
Everyone dies, but they do not die at the same time, nor does their death necessarily have the same costs.

And what is your alternative? Having the government pay and administer healthcare is still insurance. You are still spreading out the risk factors.

At least then it's directly accountable to the public, unlike a private company with every incentive to screw you over.

EDIT: Not as familiar with life insurance, but that sounds sketchy as well.

[Novus America]

Umm we have life insurance too.
Everyone dies, but they do not die at the same time, nor does their death necessarily have the same costs.

And what is your alternative? Having the government pay and administer healthcare is still insurance. You are still spreading out the risk factors.

At least then it's directly accountable to the public, unlike a private company with every incentive to screw you over.

EDIT: Not as familiar with life insurance, but that sounds sketchy as well.

Life insurance is pretty simple and logical really.
Say a married couple lives in an apartment together. Each makes $3,000 a month, the apartment costs $3,100 a month. Now together they can pay it, but if one dies suddenly (thus no longer makes money) the remaining one is in trouble. Now most people will not die unexpectedly young, but some will, so life insurance shares the risk.

And sure, you can debate HOW the health insurance should be administered, publicly, private or some combination but no matter what you need some system for it.

[Chessmistress]

The best alternative would be a free market system without government control and regulations. Where hospitals and doctors are forced through competition to provide the best and most affordable healthcare options.

Actually, since you seems to be into utopia, the best alternative would be the arrival of an alien very advanced civilization that gives, for free, very advanced medical technology with the capacity to cure all disease for free.

But when it comes at reality, then you have to check which are the best systems in the world, and you'll notice that all them are NOT "free market system healthcare" but quite the opposite...

[Chessmistress]

Didn't you claim to be a pious christian helping other people?

I ask because such message seems more worthy of a radical anarchist who doesn't care about other people, or something like that.

I support universal healthcare.

I support it, too.

Universal healthcare = the government have a very important place, the most prominent place, in healthcare.

[LimaUniformNovemberAlpha]

At least then it's directly accountable to the public, unlike a private company with every incentive to screw you over.

EDIT: Not as familiar with life insurance, but that sounds sketchy as well.

Life insurance is pretty simple and logical really.
Say a married couple lives in an apartment together. Each makes $3,000 a month, the apartment costs $3,100 a month. Now together they can pay it, but if one dies suddenly (thus no longer makes money) the remaining one is in trouble. Now most people will not die unexpectedly young, but some will, so life insurance shares the risk.

And sure, you can debate HOW the health insurance should be administered, publicly, private or some combination but no matter what you need some system for it.

You know damn well what I meant. Health insurance, as in the phrase used by its very definition to refer to private insurers. Public healthcare is called just that; "public healthcare;" not insurance.

[Novus America]

Life insurance is pretty simple and logical really.
Say a married couple lives in an apartment together. Each makes $3,000 a month, the apartment costs $3,100 a month. Now together they can pay it, but if one dies suddenly (thus no longer makes money) the remaining one is in trouble. Now most people will not die unexpectedly young, but some will, so life insurance shares the risk.

And sure, you can debate HOW the health insurance should be administered, publicly, private or some combination but no matter what you need some system for it.

You know damn well what I meant. Health insurance, as in the phrase used by its very definition to refer to private insurers. Public healthcare is called just that; "public healthcare;" not insurance.

Not necessarily. The National health insurance model literally uses insurance in its name.
Insurance does not need to be private, a lot of it is not.

[Fartsniffage]

You know damn well what I meant. Health insurance, as in the phrase used by its very definition to refer to private insurers. Public healthcare is called just that; "public healthcare;" not insurance.

Not necessarily. The National health insurance model literally uses insurance in its name.
Insurance does not need to be private, a lot of it is not.

It really doesn't work that way. In the UK we pay National Insurance and it just goes into the central taxation pot. It is not an insurance in any way shape or form. It's just a tax and then the NHS is funded out of the pot along with everything else.

[Novus America]

Not necessarily. The National health insurance model literally uses insurance in its name.
Insurance does not need to be private, a lot of it is not.

It really doesn't work that way. In the UK we pay National Insurance and it just goes into the central taxation pot. It is not an insurance in any way shape or form. It's just a tax and then the NHS is funded out of the pot along with everything else.

I mean that is basically how health insurance works. The users pay into a big pot, and it pays the healthcare costs of the users on an as needed basis. That is still insurance.
Many people will still pay in more than they cost the system.
Although true the British use a different model than most.

[Jebslund]

Taxation is absolutely theft. If I don’t want universal healthcare, yet I am forced to pay for it, that is theft via extortion.

Apartment rent is absolutely theft. If I don't want fresh paint, yet I am forced to pay for it, that is theft via extortion.
Apartment rent is absolutely theft. If I don't want free cable, yet I am forced to pay for it, that is theft via extortion.
Apartment rent is absolutely theft. If I don't want covered parking, yet I am forced to pay for it, that is theft via extortion.
Apartment rent is absolutely theft. If I don't want a pool, yet I am forced to pay for it, that is theft via extortion.
Apartment rent is absolutely theft. If I don't want pest control services, yet I am forced to pay for them, that is theft via extortion.


Do you see where your "Taxation is theft" argument falls short? Taxes are your rent for being a citizen of this country. The money goes toward a large number of services. You do not get to pick and choose which services you want your money to go to any more than any other business that charges you a fee to use any of its services. You don't like it? Move to another country that provides only the services you want and apply for citizenship to pay rent there.

[Tarchuna and Ravenna]

Taxation is absolutely theft. If I don’t want universal healthcare, yet I am forced to pay for it, that is theft via extortion.

Apartment rent is absolutely theft. If I don't want fresh paint, yet I am forced to pay for it, that is theft via extortion.
Apartment rent is absolutely theft. If I don't want free cable, yet I am forced to pay for it, that is theft via extortion.
Apartment rent is absolutely theft. If I don't want covered parking, yet I am forced to pay for it, that is theft via extortion.
Apartment rent is absolutely theft. If I don't want a pool, yet I am forced to pay for it, that is theft via extortion.
Apartment rent is absolutely theft. If I don't want pest control services, yet I am forced to pay for them, that is theft via extortion.


Do you see where your "Taxation is theft" argument falls short? Taxes are your rent for being a citizen of this country. The money goes toward a large number of services. You do not get to pick and choose which services you want your money to go to any more than any other business that charges you a fee to use any of its services. You don't like it? Move to another country that provides only the services you want and apply for citizenship to pay rent there.

This reminds me. Fucking SJWs rant about “moving to Canada”, yet not one of them has.