On Diplomacy and "Preconditions"

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

Meanwhile I'm wondering why the fuck we should bother talking to Iran or North Korea in the first place.

What happened to not negotiating with terrorists? I liked that policy. Has a nice ring to it.

[Munkcestrian Republic]

Meanwhile I'm wondering why the fuck we should bother talking to Iran or North Korea in the first place.

What happened to not negotiating with terrorists? I liked that policy. Has a nice ring to it.

America has always negotiated with terrorists. America has worked with terrorists.

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

Meanwhile I'm wondering why the fuck we should bother talking to Iran or North Korea in the first place.

What happened to not negotiating with terrorists? I liked that policy. Has a nice ring to it.

America has always negotiated with terrorists. America has worked with terrorists.

Here's a thought for you: maybe we shouldn't.

[Munkcestrian Republic]

America has always negotiated with terrorists. America has worked with terrorists.

Here's a thought for you: maybe we shouldn't.

You're American, I'm not, so you can get started on changing that. I'll wait and not expect any results.

[Bear Stearns]

No, it is not reasonable. Only an insane militarist would think so.

[Rojava Free State]

Trump is cool with all dictators so long as they aren't friends with Obama and don't insult him. He's fine with rodrigo dutuerte, a former school shooter who held two jobs as mayor of Davao City and part time Serial killer. This is a guy who murders children. If Trump is friends with someone as deranged as him, I'm not surprised he would have a strange bromance with kim

Every American President makes friends with a few dozen brutal dictators, although usually for opportunistic reasons. But Trump sometimes seems to genuinely like these people.

Trump says stuff about Kim that requires him to say no homo afterward. No other president I can think of has gone that far with dictators

[Bear Stearns]

Trump is cool with all dictators so long as they aren't friends with Obama and don't insult him. He's fine with rodrigo dutuerte, a former school shooter who held two jobs as mayor of Davao City and part time Serial killer. This is a guy who murders children. If Trump is friends with someone as deranged as him, I'm not surprised he would have a strange bromance with kim

Every American President makes friends with a few dozen brutal dictators, although usually for opportunistic reasons. But Trump sometimes seems to genuinely like these people.

Saying that previously presidents had purely opportunistic, transactional reasons is dubious. This shit runs a lot deeper than that.

[Bear Stearns]

Every American President makes friends with a few dozen brutal dictators, although usually for opportunistic reasons. But Trump sometimes seems to genuinely like these people.

Trump says stuff about Kim that requires him to say no homo afterward. No other president I can think of has gone that far with dictators

Roosevelt literally praised Stalin

[Vetalia]

Trump says stuff about Kim that requires him to say no homo afterward. No other president I can think of has gone that far with dictators

Roosevelt literally praised Stalin

Or Mobutu and Reagan.

[LiberNovusAmericae]

I fully support Biden on this. In fact it’s one of the things I really really do not like what Trump did. I still believe that Trump never should have visited the leadership of NK

What is lost by that visit if no concessions are made?

It gives the Nork dictator legitimacy and the right to boast about now being a player on the world stage.

[Kowani]

No, it is not reasonable. Only an insane militarist would think so.

Oh, look at that. We actually agree on something.

[Bear Stearns]

No, it is not reasonable. Only an insane militarist would think so.

Oh, look at that. We actually agree on something.

You should be aware of my foreign policy views.

[Kowani]

Oh, look at that. We actually agree on something.

You should be aware of my foreign policy views.

Only somewhat.

[Rojava Free State]

Trump says stuff about Kim that requires him to say no homo afterward. No other president I can think of has gone that far with dictators

Roosevelt literally praised Stalin

Yeah like uncle joe. I forgot about all that cause of how long ago it was but you right

[Ethel mermania]

Trump says stuff about Kim that requires him to say no homo afterward. No other president I can think of has gone that far with dictators

Roosevelt literally praised Stalin

So did churchill. Who also said if satan came out against hitler he he would work out how to put in a good word for the devil in the house of commons

[Bear Stearns]

Roosevelt literally praised Stalin

So did churchill. Who also said if satan came out against hitler he he would work out how to put in a good word for the devil in the house of commons

Truly astounding. It makes you think that the Allies motives for fighting the Germans were certainly not pure, and were especially not based on a global commitment to democracy and freedom.

[Rojava Free State]

So did churchill. Who also said if satan came out against hitler he he would work out how to put in a good word for the devil in the house of commons

Truly astounding. It makes you think that the Allies motives for fighting the Germans were certainly not pure, and were especially not based on a global commitment to democracy and freedom.

It was based solely on defending themselves from the Nazis and nothing else

[Bear Stearns]

Truly astounding. It makes you think that the Allies motives for fighting the Germans were certainly not pure, and were especially not based on a global commitment to democracy and freedom.

It was based solely on defending themselves from the Nazis and nothing else

It was based on ensuring the markets of Europe and Asia remained open to British and American commerce.

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

It was based solely on defending themselves from the Nazis and nothing else

It was based on ensuring the markets of Europe and Asia remained open to British and American commerce.

The markets. Right, of course. It was all about the markets. Definitely had nothing to do with the fact the Nazis had a literal plan for global domination, a fervent belief in their own superiority over everyone else, and were invading every country within spitting distance which combined made them an existential threat to just about everybody.

Nah, surely that wasn't a factor. It was just about getting them big bucks obviously.

[Bear Stearns]

It was based on ensuring the markets of Europe and Asia remained open to British and American commerce.

The markets. Right, of course. It was all about the markets. Definitely had nothing to do with the fact the Nazis had a literal plan for global domination

The Nazis did not have plans for global domination, but a Nazi-dominated Europe would have been very bad news for US exporters and banks. And it's not like the US really has the moral high ground on this issue, notwithstanding the alliance with the Soviet Union, who expressly did have plans for world domination.

The British Empire has even less of an excuse here.

, a fervent belief in their own superiority over everyone else,

Western leaders proved they were rather indifferent about this.

and were invading every country within spitting distance which combined made them an existential threat to just about everybody.

Funny because the Soviet Union did the same thing and we decided to arm the fuck out of them.

Nah, surely that wasn't a factor. It was just about getting them big bucks obviously.

For the most part, yes. That's obviously not what the war was sold on (and certainly not the war in Asia, which truly was a colonial war between different empires), but that's basically what the pro-war faction wanted. That the Nazis made the perfect villains and were the most hated faction in world history was just gravy. But truth is, we would have gone to war against a non-Nazi Germany as well if they posed a threat to our access to continental markets (as we did in 1917).

Of course, our gleeful alliance with the Soviet Union really tarnishes any claim of fighting for democracy. That the Nazis were really evil doesn't mean the Allies were saints with the purest intentions.

Also the war in Asia was about the oil trade and protecting European colonial empires. That the Japanese happened to be even harsher colonial masters than the Dutch, French, and British doesn't change this.

[US-SSR]

Meanwhile I'm wondering why the fuck we should bother talking to Iran or North Korea in the first place.

What happened to not negotiating with terrorists? I liked that policy. Has a nice ring to it.

iirc that was the policy of the guy who sent arms to Iran in exchange for money for Central American guerrillas...

[Ethel mermania]

So did churchill. Who also said if satan came out against hitler he he would work out how to put in a good word for the devil in the house of commons

Truly astounding. It makes you think that the Allies motives for fighting the Germans were certainly not pure, and were especially not based on a global commitment to democracy and freedom.

I think Britain’s war aim was fairly clear, and that was survival as a nation.

[Agend]

So did churchill. Who also said if satan came out against hitler he he would work out how to put in a good word for the devil in the house of commons

Truly astounding. It makes you think that the Allies motives for fighting the Germans were certainly not pure, and were especially not based on a global commitment to democracy and freedom.

It wasn't it to decide who would become the next world super power. Hitler set out to make Germany a world super power and he did. The Allies saw this as a threat to the balance of world powers as they did in World War I, so they went to war. America took the chance to raise out of their depression and gain an even better reputation for defeating "evil."

[Vivolkha]

America would never tolerate this the other way around, if for example Putin said "I won't negotiate with you until you close a few military bases in the Baltic." Or if Iran gave America a list of sanctions that must be lifted to even come to the table.

Unfortunately, this is logical purely by power dynamics, with neither Russia or Iran having economic, militar or political power that comes close to matching that of the US.

As for the point of this thread itself, in general preconditions should not be a requirement for diplomatic talks. They can be used as a political tactic (the "stop committing genocide" point in the first page) though, but it risks alienating the other side.

Then again, the diplomatic talks themselves must have some good use, i.e. not praising dictators because you are a dictator wannabe yourself.

[Chan Island]

Preconditions are themselves negotiations, so meh?

Personally I think a president should be willing, if the situation demands it, to meet without preconditions. That's just diplomacy 101, and all of the chestbeating about it being weak it just pure chestbeating.