Right Wing Discussion Thread XIX

[Novus America]

Country is an area of land. While real in as much as the country of France is a area of land in Europe a country alone is not necessarily enough for a collective identity. Nation is the collective identity of a people.

France is a country. The French Republic is a state. The French are a nation.

utterly bluepilled

Truth pilled.
Although often used interchangeably, and related, state, country and nation are not exactly synonymous.
I do not buy into any sort of transcendental esotericism to these concepts I fully admit.
They are not things that simply are, but things we create, well country in terms of drawing borders, obviously we do not create the land per se in most cases.

[Nakena]

This.

disappointed

As what would you define a country then? Like a place where you are by tradition, culture and other ways being connected to your kith and kin, your folk?

I mean, I get what you mean by that. But how often this is actually the case nowadays in our modern days, specifically in the socially atomized west?

[Questarian New Yorkshire]

Loyalty to Country, Family and Community are all equally important and very rarely need to be tiered

It's precisely when loyalties clash that good people are most apt to be disloyal. If your father is a traitor in the eyes of your government, to whom then do you give your loyalty? The man who raised, swaddled, and fed you, who was there when you began to walk and to read? Or to the nation that kept you safe from hypothetical enemies, that provided you with roads and a sense of identity beyond the family? And what of G-d?

And there’s nothing else that you need to be loyal too. Friends obviously. And class. Thats about it.

I think you might owe some loyalty to those who invest in you and those to whom you make promises.

agree on 2nd point, fair addition

what i meant is that its contextual tho

[Diopolis]

It requires some elaboration.

The New Soviet Man was supposed to be selfless and restrained, he worked for the good of society rather than himself, and also was to nurture his family with both income and his selfless example to guide the way.

The New Soviet Woman, while retaining the role of wife and mother, also brought these roles into the public and political sphere, endowing their children with proletarian virtue as well as playing a role in public policy in promoting the well-being of the family. The New Soviet Woman was not a sheltered wife and mother who was timid outside the home, but sought to bring her virtues with her to the workplace (though she would often limit her work for sake of her children), and also to the Party committees, providing a temperance to the hot-headedness of men and an example for men to look towards, as men and women are to nurture one-another's best nature.

Although not the worst, there are issues, some levels of individualism and risk taking behaviors are actually needed, although tempered with a sense of duty and loyalty to society and while following lawful moral authority also being able to question authority.

We need to be able to be a bit irreverent, rebellious and yes weird within reason. Otherwise society ossifies.

Implying that society ossifying is a bad thing.

[Novus America]

Although not the worst, there are issues, some levels of individualism and risk taking behaviors are actually needed, although tempered with a sense of duty and loyalty to society and while following lawful moral authority also being able to question authority.

We need to be able to be a bit irreverent, rebellious and yes weird within reason. Otherwise society ossifies.

Implying that society ossifying is a bad thing.

It obviously often is, because ossified societies generally do not do well, especially against outside threats.

[Ayytaly]

Former colonies have no proper identity. Even England, technically an Anglo-Saxon and Norman colony, has no true discernible culture of its own. Not even football, which is Chinese in origin.

[Diopolis]

Implying that society ossifying is a bad thing.

It obviously often is, because ossified societies generally do not do well, especially against outside threats.

Too much contact with the outside world causes problems, yes. That's why China couldn't maintain their ancient customs.

[Cekoviu]

Former colonies have no proper identity. Even England, technically an Anglo-Saxon and Norman colony, has no true discernible culture of its own. Not even football, which is Chinese in origin.

Is there such a thing as Burmese culture?

[Ayytaly]

Former colonies have no proper identity. Even England, technically an Anglo-Saxon and Norman colony, has no true discernible culture of its own. Not even football, which is Chinese in origin.

Is there such a thing as Burmese culture?

It's no longer a British subject, nor is its ethnic hegemony non-indigenous.

Therefore, yes, Burma has proper culture.

[Novus America]

It obviously often is, because ossified societies generally do not do well, especially against outside threats.

Too much contact with the outside world causes problems, yes. That's why China couldn't maintain their ancient customs.

Well and why the Incans got thrashed too.
But you cannot hide from the world. China tried, but guys with guns said no.
That happens. You must always aim to be staying ahead of potential threats. You cannot stand still, much as you might want to. You cannot freeze time. Plus ossified societies often fail to internal threats and natural disasters too.

[Ayytaly]

Too much contact with the outside world causes problems, yes. That's why China couldn't maintain their ancient customs.

Well and why the Incans got thrashed too.
But you cannot hide from the world. China tried, but guys with guns said no.
That happens. You must always aim to be staying ahead of potential threats. You cannot stand still, much as you might want to. You cannot freeze time. Plus ossified societies often fail to internal threats and natural disasters too.

Didn't stop the Islamic world from conquering half of Europe, and they're doing it again today.

[Novus America]

Well and why the Incans got thrashed too.
But you cannot hide from the world. China tried, but guys with guns said no.
That happens. You must always aim to be staying ahead of potential threats. You cannot stand still, much as you might want to. You cannot freeze time. Plus ossified societies often fail to internal threats and natural disasters too.

Didn't stop the Islamic world from conquering half of Europe, and they're doing it again today.

They were not ossified when doing the conquering, and in fact adopted the best technology from the areas they occupied and early on encouraged learning. When they ossified they failed too.

[Cambrian Albany]

Former colonies have no proper identity. Even England, technically an Anglo-Saxon and Norman colony, has no true discernible culture of its own. Not even football, which is Chinese in origin.

Are you fucking joking?

[Novus America]

Former colonies have no proper identity. Even England, technically an Anglo-Saxon and Norman colony, has no true discernible culture of its own. Not even football, which is Chinese in origin.

No culture has a truly “indigenous” culture all its own outside maybe some uncontacted tribes.
Japanese culture for example has many outside influences. Cultures interact and evolve.

[Ayytaly]

Former colonies have no proper identity. Even England, technically an Anglo-Saxon and Norman colony, has no true discernible culture of its own. Not even football, which is Chinese in origin.

Are you fucking joking?

No, I'm not.

Are you English or British?

[State of Turelisa]

Policy proposal of the day: drug dealers should be stoned to death by the children from local public schools. This serves the purposes of 1) poetic justice 2) deterrence 3) community domination and 4) retribution. Drug dealers could be allowed to be hanged behind prison walls if turned in by community leaders, as a means of co-opting existing structures into the war on drugs.

This form of community participation in public discipline, a way to channel public wrath, is Theonomic, and it could never be accepted in a secular, democratic society.

[Nakena]

Policy proposal of the day: drug dealers should be stoned to death by the children from local public schools. This serves the purposes of 1) poetic justice 2) deterrence 3) community domination and 4) retribution. Drug dealers could be allowed to be hanged behind prison walls if turned in by community leaders, as a means of coopting existing structures into the war on drugs.

Policy counter proposal: Sell drugs in the Pharmacies and specialized stores. That makes the Drug Dealer redundant to begin with.

It's not that it hasnt been done before...

[Cambrian Albany]

Are you fucking joking?

No, I'm not.

Are you English or British?

Yes and yes

[Ayytaly]

Policy proposal of the day: drug dealers should be stoned to death by the children from local public schools. This serves the purposes of 1) poetic justice 2) deterrence 3) community domination and 4) retribution. Drug dealers could be allowed to be hanged behind prison walls if turned in by community leaders, as a means of coopting existing structures into the war on drugs.

Policy counter proposal: Sell drugs in the Pharmacies and specialized stores. That makes the Drug Dealer redundant to begin with.

It's not that it hasnt been done before...

Counter-counterproposal: Legalize drugs but enact laws of diacretion and outlaw consumption in public. Failure to obey them automatically justifies deadly force by law enforcement.

[Hakons]

I've been contemplating today, in the haze of my post-exam afternoon, where the loyalty of men and women ought to reside and how this depends on context. The natural inclination is for me to assert that we owe our loyalty to G-d first and foremost but, as I'm given to strong affections, my next thought is that I might love and cherish my family more. Then there's the political community and the homeland, the nation and the country respectively. For I long time I was drawn to communitarian ideas, with my inclination being to say that we should be loyal to smaller, more intimate communities first as they defined us more. In which case, the family should precede the nation. Thoughts?

That's pretty close to the Catholic teaching of subsidarity. The family is the basic unit of society, and is in itself a society. Whataver power the state has to govern, it doesn't have the power to violate was is naturally within the power of the family. The state can only intervene in family matters if one of the members greviously breaks their duty to the family.

[Kowani]

It obviously often is, because ossified societies generally do not do well, especially against outside threats.

Too much contact with the outside world causes problems, yes. That's why China couldn't maintain their ancient customs.

Yeah, ask Japan how isolationism and ossification worked.

[Fahran]

That's pretty close to the Catholic teaching of subsidarity. The family is the basic unit of society, and is in itself a society. Whataver power the state has to govern, it doesn't have the power to violate was is naturally within the power of the family. The state can only intervene in family matters if one of the members greviously breaks their duty to the family.

Interesting. I've been leaning towards a lot of Catholic political philosophy of late, and, presumably, that's not too peculiar given the historical importance of Catholicism to Anglophone conservatism and some of the overlap that occurs between Catholic teachings and more observant Jewish teachings - such as the strong emphasis on family, the rejection of sola scriptura, the acknowledgement of the community, etc.

[Fahran]

Too much contact with the outside world causes problems, yes. That's why China couldn't maintain their ancient customs.

China's inability to fight off western powers had quite a bit to do with a refusal or inability to adapt novel technologies and reform ossified social hierarchies and conventions that had led to deep-rooted rot and corruption. Mind you, I don't share quite the same opinion as Novus or Ko on going full steam ahead into political reforms but a lot of the court officials and outdated court customs needed to go, especially towards the twilight years of the Qing.

[Fahran]

Former colonies have no proper identity. Even England, technically an Anglo-Saxon and Norman colony, has no true discernible culture of its own. Not even football, which is Chinese in origin.

Complete and utter hogwash. Diverse ethnic origin does not invalidate the ethnic, cultural, and civic identity of a nation. If we held to that standard consistently, most nations would have no proper identity. Additionally, Chinese "football" bears no close resemblance to the modern game, which originated in England. From what we understand about cuju and its Japanese equivalent kemari, there were enough distinct rules to make the game almost unrecognizable, with kemari in particular having more in common with keepie-uppie.

[Novus America]

Too much contact with the outside world causes problems, yes. That's why China couldn't maintain their ancient customs.

China's inability to fight off western powers had quite a bit to do with a refusal or inability to adapt novel technologies and reform ossified social hierarchies and conventions that had led to deep-rooted rot and corruption. Mind you, I don't share quite the same opinion as Novus or Ko on going full steam ahead into political reforms but a lot of the court officials and outdated court customs needed to go, especially towards the twilight years of the Qing.

Well I am not quite to Ko’s level at all TBF although a would definitely be supporting some big changes, but I am not against traditions that are beneficial, and might even support the continuation of the Qing monarchy depending on the time period, although admittedly by the 1900s I would probably side with the Xinhai Revolution.

But otherwise absolutely agree, we might not agree on the exact details and extent of the reforms but the failure of the Qing to maintain a dynamic and adaptable enough society did lead to its downfall. What worked in the 1600s often no longer did in the 1800s and the society of the 1800s was ossified compared to the 1600s when it was still dynamic and successful.