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by LiberNovusAmericae » Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:31 am
by Hakons » Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:42 am
LiberNovusAmericae wrote:A couple that constantly fights but are forced to be together probably isn't good for childhood development either.
by Bienenhalde » Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:46 am
Salus Maior wrote:The Renaissance wasn't a decline in sincere Christianity, some of our best stuff comes from that era.
Some people just want something to blame for the things they don't like in the present. But I don't think people in the Middle Ages were any more holy than in the Renaissance.
by United Muscovite Nations » Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:49 am
Hakons wrote:LiberNovusAmericae wrote:A couple that constantly fights but are forced to be together probably isn't good for childhood development either.
A childhood with half the parental time, resources, and income; a childhood without an absent father or a removed mother; a childhood without the example of husband and wife, is decidedly worse for childhood development. What I don't understand is that the supporters of divorce seem to think of every negative scenario possible within marriage, and ignore the scenario that divorce produces on a mind-numbing scale in American society.
by Fahran » Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:50 am
Luminesa wrote:Have you seen fictional English literature from the 17th and 18th centuries? English people can be incredibly emotional and sentimental.
by Fahran » Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:52 am
Hanafuridake wrote:I'm starting to think we all owe Alex Jones an apology for mocking him for claiming the elite were a bunch of pedophilic vampires.
Although considering he hasn't called out one of the pedophiles because said pedophile supports his show, maybe not.
by Imperium Romanum Sanctis » Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:54 am
Bienenhalde wrote:Salus Maior wrote:The Renaissance wasn't a decline in sincere Christianity, some of our best stuff comes from that era.
Some people just want something to blame for the things they don't like in the present. But I don't think people in the Middle Ages were any more holy than in the Renaissance.
The Renaissance saw the beginning of colonization of the Americas, the rise of the transantlantic slave trade, and more generally racist views towards non-European peoples. That seems like a pretty big problem to me. And that is to say nothing of the notorious corruption of the Renaissance papacy and the corrupt banking families like the Medicis.
by Fahran » Fri Apr 10, 2020 10:56 am
Hakons wrote:Nap the Magnificent wrote:Take this shit to the fucking CDT where it belongs.
It's focused on divorce, which is an issue under the purview of right wing discussion. Catholicism was brought up, in this case, because some people like to swipe at the Church whenever Catholics open their mouths here.
by Imperium Romanum Sanctis » Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:03 am
Fahran wrote:Hakons wrote:
It's focused on divorce, which is an issue under the purview of right wing discussion. Catholicism was brought up, in this case, because some people like to swipe at the Church whenever Catholics open their mouths here.
Sixty percent of divorces had infidelity cited as the rationale behind the divorce. Those weren't no-fault divorces. In total, twenty to forty percent of divorces likely result from infidelity and close to sixty percent of married men are estimated to cheat on their wives - I'll post the stat on women when I find it. We can do away with no-fault divorce, and I definitely believe we should seek to minimize the occurrence of divorce, but we have to do something about the rampant infidelity as well. It's not just to expect people to stay with unfaithful partners.
by Nap the Magnificent » Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:35 am
Hakons wrote:Nap the Magnificent wrote:Take this shit to the fucking CDT where it belongs.
It's focused on divorce, which is an issue under the purview of right wing discussion. Catholicism was brought up, in this case, because some people like to swipe at the Church whenever Catholics open their mouths here.
by United Muscovite Nations » Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:37 am
Nap the Magnificent wrote:Hakons wrote:
It's focused on divorce, which is an issue under the purview of right wing discussion. Catholicism was brought up, in this case, because some people like to swipe at the Church whenever Catholics open their mouths here.
It stopped being just about that when it became Catholic theology bumping text walls.
No fault divorce is quite shit but a lot of marriages still are ended for legitimate reasons such as a result of infidelity, domestic abuse, or spousal abandonment. All of these are valid reasons for divorce but the way to solve them isn't by cracking down on divorce to the point when you are harming people as a result.
by The East Marches II » Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:39 am
Fahran wrote:Hakons wrote:
It's focused on divorce, which is an issue under the purview of right wing discussion. Catholicism was brought up, in this case, because some people like to swipe at the Church whenever Catholics open their mouths here.
Sixty percent of divorces had infidelity cited as the rationale behind the divorce. Those weren't no-fault divorces. In total, twenty to forty percent of divorces likely result from infidelity and close to sixty percent of married men are estimated to cheat on their wives - I'll post the stat on women when I find it. We can do away with no-fault divorce, and I definitely believe we should seek to minimize the occurrence of divorce, but we have to do something about the rampant infidelity as well. It's not just to expect people to stay with unfaithful partners.
by The Alma Mater » Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:40 am
Hakons wrote:Nap the Magnificent wrote:Take this shit to the fucking CDT where it belongs.
It's focused on divorce, which is an issue under the purview of right wing discussion. Catholicism was brought up, in this case, because some people like to swipe at the Church whenever Catholics open their mouths here.
by Hakons » Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:46 am
Nap the Magnificent wrote:Hakons wrote:
It's focused on divorce, which is an issue under the purview of right wing discussion. Catholicism was brought up, in this case, because some people like to swipe at the Church whenever Catholics open their mouths here.
It stopped being just about that when it became Catholic theology bumping text walls.
The Alma Mater wrote:Hakons wrote:
It's focused on divorce, which is an issue under the purview of right wing discussion. Catholicism was brought up, in this case, because some people like to swipe at the Church whenever Catholics open their mouths here.
But why is Catholicism relevant at all when talking about legal marriage ? It is a state-sanctioned contract, open to people of all (non)religions , according to the rules of the state. Not those of the Pope, Ayatollah, Grand Mufti, Tiger King or whatever.
by United Muscovite Nations » Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:51 am
by Hakons » Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:53 am
by Nap the Magnificent » Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:54 am
Hakons wrote:Nap the Magnificent wrote:It stopped being just about that when it became Catholic theology bumping text walls.The Alma Mater wrote:
But why is Catholicism relevant at all when talking about legal marriage ? It is a state-sanctioned contract, open to people of all (non)religions , according to the rules of the state. Not those of the Pope, Ayatollah, Grand Mufti, Tiger King or whatever.
My argument didn't include Catholicism. My argument used statistics and the claimed consequences of divorce. I didn't say "Divorce should be illegal because the Church said so." I agree with that, but I didn't argue that in this case. If you read what I actually said, instead of seeing a religious person speaking and immediately proclaiming theocracy, you might have noticed that. Han is the one that randomly sniped against the Catholic hierarchy. Why you guys then hound religious people for daring to speak when insulted is beyond reason.
by Hakons » Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:56 am
Nap the Magnificent wrote:Hakons wrote:
My argument didn't include Catholicism. My argument used statistics and the claimed consequences of divorce. I didn't say "Divorce should be illegal because the Church said so." I agree with that, but I didn't argue that in this case. If you read what I actually said, instead of seeing a religious person speaking and immediately proclaiming theocracy, you might have noticed that. Han is the one that randomly sniped against the Catholic hierarchy. Why you guys then hound religious people for daring to speak when insulted is beyond reason.
It wasn't just you. I also don't really give two shits if Han did that.
by The Alma Mater » Fri Apr 10, 2020 11:58 am
Hakons wrote:Nap the Magnificent wrote:It stopped being just about that when it became Catholic theology bumping text walls.The Alma Mater wrote:
But why is Catholicism relevant at all when talking about legal marriage ? It is a state-sanctioned contract, open to people of all (non)religions , according to the rules of the state. Not those of the Pope, Ayatollah, Grand Mufti, Tiger King or whatever.
My argument didn't include Catholicism. My argument used statistics and the claimed consequences of divorce. I didn't say "Divorce should be illegal because the Church said so." I agree with that, but I didn't argue that in this case. If you read what I actually said, instead of seeing a religious person speaking and immediately proclaiming theocracy, you might have noticed that. Han is the one that randomly sniped against the Catholic hierarchy. Why you guys then hound religious people for daring to speak when insulted is beyond reason.
by United Muscovite Nations » Fri Apr 10, 2020 12:00 pm
by Imperium Romanum Sanctis » Fri Apr 10, 2020 12:05 pm
United Muscovite Nations wrote:Also no-fault divorce should be allowed, even if it should be frowned upon. I agree the results are often terrible, but it is still unfair to legally require two people who do not want to be in a relationship together to remain in a relationship.
by United Muscovite Nations » Fri Apr 10, 2020 12:07 pm
Imperium Romanum Sanctis wrote:United Muscovite Nations wrote:Also no-fault divorce should be allowed, even if it should be frowned upon. I agree the results are often terrible, but it is still unfair to legally require two people who do not want to be in a relationship together to remain in a relationship.
National stability takes precedence over fairness.
Most divorce rates in the West are in the 40-50% range. That's too high, and causes far too much societal disorder.
Oaths and vows need to be taken seriously; especially marital ones.
by Hakons » Fri Apr 10, 2020 12:11 pm
The Alma Mater wrote:Hakons wrote:
My argument didn't include Catholicism. My argument used statistics and the claimed consequences of divorce. I didn't say "Divorce should be illegal because the Church said so." I agree with that, but I didn't argue that in this case. If you read what I actually said, instead of seeing a religious person speaking and immediately proclaiming theocracy, you might have noticed that. Han is the one that randomly sniped against the Catholic hierarchy. Why you guys then hound religious people for daring to speak when insulted is beyond reason.
Are your arguments based on Catholic or Right wing principles ?
Because those are not the same. They in fact are incompatible.
Hakons wrote:Washington Resistance Army wrote:
There's a lot of times that's just not true.
Marriage is self-sacrifice. Divorcing for frivolous reasons and harming the lives of children isn't a desirable outcome. Getting a divorce doesn't exactly make you more happy, and children are seriously screwed up by it, as shown in hard statistics for graduation and crime rates. A no fault divorce shouldn't be a legal option. It concretely causes irreparable harm by breaking apart the family unit.
Hakons wrote:Hanafuridake wrote:
Forcing people to be a part of abusive relationships because they can't legally prove they're being abused or cheated on is going to result in worse.
It's ironic that the people making Catholic policies on marriage are old men who are celibate.
Abuse is a fault. Abusive husbands break the law and should be imprisoned under the law.
Your marital status doesn't discredit your position on marriage. This is a silly ad hominem. They don't make policy either, it is made by the Magisterium, the collective teaching authority of the Church.
Hakons wrote:United Muscovite Nations wrote:Divorce should be frowned on but not illegal. Adultery though should be illegal because it's a breaking of society's most valuable contract.
Regardless of what kind of divorce should be illegal, I think we all can agree divorce should be rarer then it presently is. Enormously high divorce rates are terrible for society, and they grossly affect our population. High divorce rates aren't normal and aren't good.
Hakons wrote:Hanafuridake wrote:
Proving abuse can be difficult at times, especially when that abuse does not leave bruises or scars (such as psychological abuse). Lots of it will come down to "he said she said," or vice versa where the woman is the perpetrator.
When the elite are making policies from their ivory towers, based on unprovable supernatural claims no less, that is a problem. The Magisterium seems to be composed of the popes and bishops, who are all celibate.
Even if proving abuse as a justification for divorce was lowered to merely lodging a complaint to the judicial system, that would vastly reduce divorce. The majority of divorce is due to spouses giving up on their marital duties and agreeing to part ways. From the National Institute of Health:Reason for divorce Individuals
Lack of commitment 75.0%
Infidelity or extramarital affairs 59.6
Too much conflict and arguing 57.7
Getting married too young 45.1
Financial problems 36.7
Substance abuse 34.6
Domestic violence 23.5
Health problems 18.2
Lack of support from family 17.3
Religious differences 13.3
Little or no premarital education 13.3
When you support no fault divorce, you support the high divorce rate. You support the staggering number of broken families and ruined childhood perceptions. There are many, many unnecessary divorces. We can't simply throw up our hands and declare our divorce rates to be natural. They're not natural. They're historically unprecedented. Your main argument is that no fault divorce saves spouses in abuse situations, but domestic abuse has neither stopped, nor is divorce a desirable remedy. We don't fix one issue with a response that is culturally disastrous, both on society at large, and in thousands upon thousands of ruined families.
Comments about the Church are transitory to the discussion. They appear to be merely serving an outlet for ad hominem attack on the Catholic hierarchy, instead of addressing the claims and evidence presented to you. I will once again reiterate that bishops don't make policy from ivory towers. That's ludicrous. Bishops propagate the Magisterium, the collective authoritative teaching of the Church, and don't send out policy proposals like a liberal democracy. A priest in the underground Church in China would tell you the marital teaching of the Church just as much as the Congregation for the Doctrine of Faith in the Vatican. A Zambian catholic girl in gradeschool catechism would tell you the immorality of divorce. There's no ivory towers, no bias from celibacy. It's Catholic teaching espoused by God, propagated by the clergy, and defended by the laity.
by Imperium Romanum Sanctis » Fri Apr 10, 2020 12:22 pm
United Muscovite Nations wrote:Imperium Romanum Sanctis wrote:
National stability takes precedence over fairness.
Most divorce rates in the West are in the 40-50% range. That's too high, and causes far too much societal disorder.
Oaths and vows need to be taken seriously; especially marital ones.
Abolishing no-fault divorce won't do anything to reduce that, as the statistics posted earlier will show.
National stability is an element of fairness, but fairness and justice are the ultimate responsibilities of government which may only be suspended in states of emergency or exception when the existence of the state itself is threatened.
by Nap the Magnificent » Fri Apr 10, 2020 12:23 pm
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