Right Wing Discussion Thread XIX

[Mirial Magna]

Israel has conquered both the West Bank and the Sinai, but never held both simultaneously.

Well they did hold both at the same time for a while. From 1967 to 1982. They do absolutely have some expansionist ambitions but ones limited to only a few nearby areas.

Unlike the Romans who had much bigger ambitions.

I thought Jordan controlled the West Bank at that time.

[Fahran]

I thought Jordan controlled the West Bank at that time.

Jordan controlled it until 1967.

Which makes the UN Resolution even funnier.

[Las Islas de Metanoia]

The question is not that they keep surviving but rather why are they constantly hated by their neighbors? The Romans who were younger than Israel accomplished more and had more enemies initially conquered them. Whereas Israel constantly gets kicked around and destroyed, I think I blame that on monolithic navel staring, the Romans adapted Carthegianian maritime commerce, Egyptian construction techniques, Greek Philosophy and Jewish religion, the Romans were way more outward thinking of the "other" then fighting the enemy and at the same time assimilating what is useful. That's why they spread so fast. Whereas Israel except for the Davidic period was constantly bullied by other nations, Egypt, Assyrians, Babylon etc.

Well Israel, unlike Rome never sought to expand outside a small region. Because they had much more limited imperial aims to a much smaller area, and were not interested in assimilating many other people that of course greatly limited how big and strong they could grow.

Their goals and methods very different from the Romans obviously.

The Roman way is much better if building a superpower is your goal of course.

Oh yes they wanted to be world rulers, Jewish eschatology say that the Messiah will conquer the whole world and Jerusalem will the center of the planet and every nation will bring tribute before her. John of the Book of Revelation, himself a Jew, accused Earthly Jerusalem which he called the "Whore of Babylon" with "being drunk with the blood of the Saints". A very apt accusation since nowadays, Jerusalem is which is the most sacred city to three religions: Judaism, Christianity and Islam, is at the center of never ending war in the Holy Land.

[Novus America]

Well they did hold both at the same time for a while. From 1967 to 1982. They do absolutely have some expansionist ambitions but ones limited to only a few nearby areas.

Unlike the Romans who had much bigger ambitions.

I thought Jordan controlled the West Bank at that time.

Jordan lost the West Bank in 1967. Same time Egypt lost the Sinai. The difference being Israel had less interest in the Sinai and was willing to trade it back to the Egyptians for diplomatic recognition and also some demographic ones. The Sinai was too sparsely populated and Egypt to large for it to be an issue. Whereas the West Bank is large enough in population relative to the rest of Jordan to possibly be an issue for Jordan.

Jordan stopped claiming the West Bank whereas Egypt never gave up their claims to the Sinai.

[Novus America]

Well Israel, unlike Rome never sought to expand outside a small region. Because they had much more limited imperial aims to a much smaller area, and were not interested in assimilating many other people that of course greatly limited how big and strong they could grow.

Their goals and methods very different from the Romans obviously.

The Roman way is much better if building a superpower is your goal of course.

Oh yes they wanted to be world rulers, Jewish eschatology say that the Messiah will conquer the whole world and Jerusalem will the center of the planet and every nation will bring tribute before her. John of the Book of Revelation, himself a Jew, accused Earthly Jerusalem which he called the "Whore of Babylon" with "being drunk with the blood of the Saints". A very apt accusation since nowadays, Jerusalem is which is the most sacred city to three religions: Judaism, Christianity and Islam, is at the center of never ending war in the Holy Land.

The Book of Revelations is not Jewish eschatology.
In Jewish eschatology the Jewish Messiah was (usually) to liberate the Jews, not rule the world.
Although there were diverse and changing interpretations.

[Fahran]

Oh yes they wanted to be world rulers, Jewish eschatology say that the Messiah will conquer the whole world and Jerusalem will the center of the planet and every nation will bring tribute before her. John of the Book of Revelation, himself a Jew, accused Earthly Jerusalem which he called the "Whore of Babylon" with "being drunk with the blood of the Saints". A very apt accusation since nowadays, Jerusalem is which is the most sacred city to three religions: Judaism, Christianity and Islam, is at the center of never ending war in the Holy Land.

Jewish eschatology isn't really a simple or straightforward matter. There's a lot of theories on what precisely the Messianic Age will entail in terms of concrete details. A lot of those mention that it'll be a time of peace and religious observance, with some likening it to the Sabbath.

[Las Islas de Metanoia]

I thought Jordan controlled the West Bank at that time.

Jordan lost the West Bank in 1967. Same time Egypt lost the Sinai. The difference being Israel had less interest in the Sinai and was willing to trade it back to the Egyptians for diplomatic recognition and also some demographic ones. The Sinai was too sparsely populated and Egypt to large for it to be an issue. Whereas the West Bank is large enough in population relative to the rest of Jordan to possibly be an issue for Jordan.

Jordan stopped claiming the West Bank whereas Egypt never gave up their claims to the Sinai.

Stop focusing on Israel they are gluttons for attention for thousands of years. Anyway, Jews are just people too, some are good some are bad and they have different views as well. Anyway, I would rather we focus our attention on more unexplored topics and new possibilities. Instead of enriching an already rich-ass area.

[Novus America]

I thought Jordan controlled the West Bank at that time.

Jordan controlled it until 1967.

Which makes the UN Resolution even funnier.

I never understood the 1967 border argument. Because there was no independent Palestinian Arab state in 1966.

[Novus America]

Jordan lost the West Bank in 1967. Same time Egypt lost the Sinai. The difference being Israel had less interest in the Sinai and was willing to trade it back to the Egyptians for diplomatic recognition and also some demographic ones. The Sinai was too sparsely populated and Egypt to large for it to be an issue. Whereas the West Bank is large enough in population relative to the rest of Jordan to possibly be an issue for Jordan.

Jordan stopped claiming the West Bank whereas Egypt never gave up their claims to the Sinai.

Stop focusing on Israel they are gluttons for attention for thousands of years. Anyway, Jews are just people too, some are good some are bad and they have different views as well. Anyway, I would rather we focus our attention on more unexplored topics and new possibilities. Instead of enriching an already rich-ass area.

I do agree we grossly over-inflate the importance of the Israel Palestinians conflict. In the grand scheme of things it should be very far down our foreign policy priorities list.

Our foreign policy should be focused on containing the PRC not small and intractable local conflicts in the Middle East.

[Hanafuridake]

Also the idea that the One God would choose a specific ethnicity and then prefer it to all others for eternity is awfully silly. It would make him no more than just a really powerful pagan deity. It makes much more sense to suppose that he chose the Jewish people for the honor of bearing Christ into the world, after which all of humanity is chosen.

Isn't that historically what happened? Most scholars seem to think that he developed from a Canaanite deity until he became exclusively worshiped. There's too many dissimilarities between Judaism and Christianity on matters such as the Trinity, war in heaven, and blood sacrifice to conclude that the latter is a fulfillment of the other.

Does a religion, that is primarily reserved for those it considers of its same blood, that was usurped by heretics, and constantly has its One God cast them into slavery or allow them to get gassed really have any claims to be any sort of universal truth?

Its one God is our God, and you'll have to account to Him of your disgusting words like these just as He accounted for those that perpetrated such grave crimes against His chosen people.

It doesn't really give your faith any credit that the only thing you can do is make vain threats of supernatural revenge because your Church was smacked into being a minor city-state and not able to execute people anymore.

[Las Islas de Metanoia]

Oh yes they wanted to be world rulers, Jewish eschatology say that the Messiah will conquer the whole world and Jerusalem will the center of the planet and every nation will bring tribute before her. John of the Book of Revelation, himself a Jew, accused Earthly Jerusalem which he called the "Whore of Babylon" with "being drunk with the blood of the Saints". A very apt accusation since nowadays, Jerusalem is which is the most sacred city to three religions: Judaism, Christianity and Islam, is at the center of never ending war in the Holy Land.

The Book of Revelations is not Jewish eschatology.

In Jewish eschatology the Jewish Messiah was to liberate the Jews, not rule the world.

Ezekiel 5:5

"This is what the Sovereign LORD says: This is Jerusalem, which I have set in the center of the nations, with countries all around her.


Isaiah 2:2-4

Now it will come about that In the last days The mountain of the house of the LORD Will be established as the chief of the mountains, And will be raised above the hills; And all the nations will stream to it. And many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; That He may teach us concerning His ways And that we may walk in His paths." For the law will go forth from Zion And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And He will judge between the nations, And will render decisions for many peoples; And they will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks Nation will not lift up sword
against nation, And never again will they learn war

Micah 4:1-3

And it will come about in the last days That the mountain of the house of the LORD Will be established as the chief of the mountains It will be raised above the hills, And the peoples will stream to it. Many nations will come and say, "Come and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD And to the house of the God of Jacob, That He may teach us about His ways And that we may walk in His paths " For from Zion will go forth the law, Even the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And He will judge between many peoples And render decisions for mighty, distant nations Then they will hammer their swords into plowshares And their spears into pruning hooks; Nation will not lift up sword against nation, And never again will they train for war.

Zechariah 14:16

Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths.

[Genivaria]

Jordan lost the West Bank in 1967. Same time Egypt lost the Sinai. The difference being Israel had less interest in the Sinai and was willing to trade it back to the Egyptians for diplomatic recognition and also some demographic ones. The Sinai was too sparsely populated and Egypt to large for it to be an issue. Whereas the West Bank is large enough in population relative to the rest of Jordan to possibly be an issue for Jordan.

Jordan stopped claiming the West Bank whereas Egypt never gave up their claims to the Sinai.

Stop focusing on Israel they are gluttons for attention for thousands of years. Anyway, Jews are just people too, some are good some are bad and they have different views as well. Anyway, I would rather we focus our attention on more unexplored topics and new possibilities. Instead of enriching an already rich-ass area.

Israel has only been a recognized nation since 1948.

[Las Islas de Metanoia]

Stop focusing on Israel they are gluttons for attention for thousands of years. Anyway, Jews are just people too, some are good some are bad and they have different views as well. Anyway, I would rather we focus our attention on more unexplored topics and new possibilities. Instead of enriching an already rich-ass area.

Israel has only been a recognized nation since 1948.

What? Israel has been appearing and reappearing even before 1948 kind sir. Israel rose and spread during the Davidic period, Israel rose and spread again during the Macabean Uprising against Ptolemaic Greeks, all the way to now. Sir that's at least a thousand years.

[Las Islas de Metanoia]

Don't weep for the wall dear Jews, your God is with you.

[Las Islas de Metanoia]

Also the idea that the One God would choose a specific ethnicity and then prefer it to all others for eternity is awfully silly. It would make him no more than just a really powerful pagan deity. It makes much more sense to suppose that he chose the Jewish people for the honor of bearing Christ into the world, after which all of humanity is chosen.

Isn't that historically what happened? Most scholars seem to think that he developed from a Canaanite deity until he became exclusively worshiped. There's too many dissimilarities between Judaism and Christianity on matters such as the Trinity, war in heaven, and blood sacrifice to conclude that the latter is a fulfillment of the other.

Its one God is our God, and you'll have to account to Him of your disgusting words like these just as He accounted for those that perpetrated such grave crimes against His chosen people.

Christianity is rife with Hellenistic-Judaism and adopted certain Greek intellectual and philosophical currents. If you accept current studies that Palestine was established by Greek colonists from the Agean then the Greek-Israeli rivalry is something that goes even before the New Testament until the very time of David itself. David mind you, before becoming king of Israel after he was chased away by incumbent King Saul, fled to and was given sanctuary in Palestine his former enemy because they respected his warrior valor, and some Palestinians were part of the group who was with David when they attempted to go under the sewers of Jerusalem and then sneak into Saul's tent and leave a memento of their capacity to Saul.

Maybe Paul of the New Testament who was originally named Saul reflected on that part of the book of Kings and that's why he was a very Xenophile type of Jew although he was a murderer of Christians at first.

[Novus America]

In Jewish eschatology the Jewish Messiah was to liberate the Jews, not rule the world.

Ezekiel 5:5

"This is what the Sovereign LORD says: This is Jerusalem, which I have set in the center of the nations, with countries all around her.


Isaiah 2:2-4

Now it will come about that In the last days The mountain of the house of the LORD Will be established as the chief of the mountains, And will be raised above the hills; And all the nations will stream to it. And many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; That He may teach us concerning His ways And that we may walk in His paths." For the law will go forth from Zion And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And He will judge between the nations, And will render decisions for many peoples; And they will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks Nation will not lift up sword

against nation, And never again will they learn war

Micah 4:1-3

And it will come about in the last days That the mountain of the house of the LORD Will be established as the chief of the mountains It will be raised above the hills, And the peoples will stream to it. Many nations will come and say, "Come and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD And to the house of the God of Jacob, That He may teach us about His ways And that we may walk in His paths " For from Zion will go forth the law, Even the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And He will judge between many peoples And render decisions for mighty, distant nations Then they will hammer their swords into plowshares And their spears into pruning hooks; Nation will not lift up sword against nation, And never again will they train for war.

Zechariah 14:16

Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths.

Those books are not in the Torah.
Their exact status in Judaism is complicated and disputed.

Also yes there was a widespread belief later that the Jewish God was the to be the Universal God and Jerusalem the Holy City, and that particular sect belief became the basis for Christianity but notice how it says God will rule all nations, NOT the Jewish people will rule all nations or that Israel will be the only nation. Hence why that tradition when becoming Christianity sought to spread the belief in God beyond Israel, but not expand the physical ancient kingdom of Israel beyond Israel.

[Las Islas de Metanoia]

Ezekiel 5:5

"This is what the Sovereign LORD says: This is Jerusalem, which I have set in the center of the nations, with countries all around her.


Isaiah 2:2-4

Now it will come about that In the last days The mountain of the house of the LORD Will be established as the chief of the mountains, And will be raised above the hills; And all the nations will stream to it. And many peoples will come and say, "Come, let us go up to the mountain of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; That He may teach us concerning His ways And that we may walk in His paths." For the law will go forth from Zion And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And He will judge between the nations, And will render decisions for many peoples; And they will hammer their swords into plowshares and their spears into pruning hooks Nation will not lift up sword

against nation, And never again will they learn war

Micah 4:1-3

And it will come about in the last days That the mountain of the house of the LORD Will be established as the chief of the mountains It will be raised above the hills, And the peoples will stream to it. Many nations will come and say, "Come and let us go up to the mountain of the LORD And to the house of the God of Jacob, That He may teach us about His ways And that we may walk in His paths " For from Zion will go forth the law, Even the word of the LORD from Jerusalem. And He will judge between many peoples And render decisions for mighty, distant nations Then they will hammer their swords into plowshares And their spears into pruning hooks; Nation will not lift up sword against nation, And never again will they train for war.

Zechariah 14:16

Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths.

Those books are not in the Torah.
Their exact status in Judaism is complicated and disputed.

Also yes there was a widespread belief later that the Jewish God was the to be the Universal God and Jerusalem the Holy City, and that particular sect belief became the basis for Christianity but notice how it says God will rule all nations, NOT the Jewish people will rule all nations or that Israel will be the only nation. Hence why that tradition when becoming Christianity sought to spread the belief in God beyond Israel, but not expand the physical ancient kingdom of Israel beyond Israel.

I thought that Orthodox Judaism hold that the Talmud and the Torah are of equal authority and that the oldest written Talmud is from year 1342 popularly called "The Babylonian Talmud".

[Novus America]

Isn't that historically what happened? Most scholars seem to think that he developed from a Canaanite deity until he became exclusively worshiped. There's too many dissimilarities between Judaism and Christianity on matters such as the Trinity, war in heaven, and blood sacrifice to conclude that the latter is a fulfillment of the other.

Christianity is rife with Hellenistic-Judaism and adopted certain Greek intellectual and philosophical currents. If you accept current studies that Palestine was established by Greek colonists from the Agean then the Greek-Israeli rivalry is something that goes even before the New Testament until the very time of David itself. David mind you, before becoming king of Israel after he was chased away by incumbent King Saul, fled to and was given sanctuary in Palestine his former enemy because they respected his warrior valor, and some Palestinians were part of the group who was with David when they attempted to go under the sewers of Jerusalem and then sneak into Saul's tent and leave a memento of their capacity to Saul.

Maybe Paul of the New Testament who was originally named Saul reflected on that part of the book of Kings and that's why he was a very Xenophile type of Jew although he was a murderer of Christians at first.

The ancient peoples of Palestine although they eventually subsumed into the Arab conquest and thus many Arab Palestinians have some ancestry from before the Arab conquest, basically nothing of their pre Arab culture, society and religion remains. Modern Arab Palestinians despite some ancestry that can be traced back to ancient times are a very different people.

[Novus America]

Those books are not in the Torah.
Their exact status in Judaism is complicated and disputed.

Also yes there was a widespread belief later that the Jewish God was the to be the Universal God and Jerusalem the Holy City, and that particular sect belief became the basis for Christianity but notice how it says God will rule all nations, NOT the Jewish people will rule all nations or that Israel will be the only nation. Hence why that tradition when becoming Christianity sought to spread the belief in God beyond Israel, but not expand the physical ancient kingdom of Israel beyond Israel.

I thought that Orthodox Judaism hold that the Talmud and the Torah are of equal authority and that the oldest written Talmud is from year 1342 popularly called "The Babylonian Talmud".

Those books are in the Tanakh but not the Talmud. And yes different Jewish traditions view those books in differently. It is complicated.

[Las Islas de Metanoia]

Christianity is rife with Hellenistic-Judaism and adopted certain Greek intellectual and philosophical currents. If you accept current studies that Palestine was established by Greek colonists from the Agean then the Greek-Israeli rivalry is something that goes even before the New Testament until the very time of David itself. David mind you, before becoming king of Israel after he was chased away by incumbent King Saul, fled to and was given sanctuary in Palestine his former enemy because they respected his warrior valor, and some Palestinians were part of the group who was with David when they attempted to go under the sewers of Jerusalem and then sneak into Saul's tent and leave a memento of their capacity to Saul.

Maybe Paul of the New Testament who was originally named Saul reflected on that part of the book of Kings and that's why he was a very Xenophile type of Jew although he was a murderer of Christians at first.

The ancient peoples of Palestine although they eventually subsumed into the Arab conquest and thus many Arab Palestinians have some ancestry from before the Arab conquest, basically nothing of their pre Arab culture, society and religion remains. Modern Arab Palestinians despite some ancestry that can be traced back to ancient times are a very different people.

I don't know about that, there's the Palestinian people include Palestinian Christians too, there is a large minority of Palestinian Christians in Palestine and considering how the New Testament is written in Koine Greek those Palestinian Christians are an uninterrupted Greco population in the Levant since Old Testament times, in fact, if the Bible is to be believed Palestine not Israel are the true natives to the Levant since according to their own Torah Israelis were migrants to the Levant from Egypt as they destroyed native Canaanite and Greek nations in the area before they established their occupying force on them.

[Las Islas de Metanoia]

Shouldn't the west then support Palestine? Since there is a larger percentage of Christians in Palestine 6% than in Israel which is only 2%.

[Novus America]

The ancient peoples of Palestine although they eventually subsumed into the Arab conquest and thus many Arab Palestinians have some ancestry from before the Arab conquest, basically nothing of their pre Arab culture, society and religion remains. Modern Arab Palestinians despite some ancestry that can be traced back to ancient times are a very different people.

I don't know about that the Palestinian people include Palestinian Christians too there is a large minority of Palestinian Christians in Palestine and considering how the New Testament is written in Koine Greek they Palestinian Christians are an uninterrupted Greco population the Levant since Old Testament times, in fact, if the Bible is to be believed Palestine not Israel are the true natives to the Levant since according to their own Torah Israelis were migrants to the Levant from Egypt as they destroyed native Canaanite and Greek nations in the area before they established their occupying force on them.

Only a mere 50,000 Christians remain in the Palestinian Territories. Sure the Christians continue on some pre Arab religious traditions to the Greco Roman period (but most speak Arabic) but the vast majority of Palestinians are Arab Muslims who have adopted a very different ethnicity, religion, language and culture from what existed before the Islamic Conquest. Although they have some Greco Roman ancestry they are very different than the historical Levantine Greeks.

[Novus America]

Shouldn't the west then support Palestine? Since there is a larger percentage of Christians in Palestine 6% than in Israel which is only 2%.

The percentage of the population which is Christian is not a good basis for foreign policy. But as you said before really in the grand scheme of things the Israeli Palestinian conflict should be very low in our list of priorities. It is not a big or important enough conflict to justify the attention it gets. Or for us to focus on at all.

[Las Islas de Metanoia]

I don't know about that the Palestinian people include Palestinian Christians too there is a large minority of Palestinian Christians in Palestine and considering how the New Testament is written in Koine Greek they Palestinian Christians are an uninterrupted Greco population the Levant since Old Testament times, in fact, if the Bible is to be believed Palestine not Israel are the true natives to the Levant since according to their own Torah Israelis were migrants to the Levant from Egypt as they destroyed native Canaanite and Greek nations in the area before they established their occupying force on them.

Only a mere 50,000 Christians remain in the Palestinian Territories. Sure they continue on pre Arab religious traditions to the Greco Roman period (but most speak Arabic) but the vast majority of Palestinians are Arab Muslims who have adopted a very different ethnicity, religion, language and culture from what existed before the Islamic Conquest. Although they have some Hreco Roman ancestry they are very different than the historical Levantine Greeks.

It's not about the number it's the percentage. Apparently Palestinians are more tolerant of Christians than Israelis since there are alot more Christians as a percentage in Palestine than in Israel. My friend who is a Priest heard horror stories that Jews spat on Christians whenever we visit the Holy Land.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SsJpfXMD044

[Las Islas de Metanoia]

Shouldn't the west then support Palestine? Since there is a larger percentage of Christians in Palestine 6% than in Israel which is only 2%.

The percentage of the population which is Christian is not a good basis for foreign policy. But as you said before really in the grand scheme of things the Israeli Palestinian conflict should be very low in our list of priorities. It is not a big or important enough conflict to justify the attention it gets. Or for us to focus on at all.

Hello Jew Wannabe. Mmkay go support Israel who spit on Christians and ignore the NATIVE Palestinians.

You're siding with Saul instead of God's beloved David.