by LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:19 pm
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:1. The PRC is not a Communist State, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
2. The CCP is not a Communist Party, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
3. Xi Jinping and his cronies are not Communists, as they have shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
How do we know this? Because the first step toward Communism is Socialism, and none of the aforementioned are even remotely Socialist in any way, shape, or form.
by Pangurstan » Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:26 pm
by LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:33 pm
Pangurstan wrote:In my opinion, this has the same roots as the debate over abortion. If you think that an embryo has rights, then in addition to opposing abortion, you probably are anti-stem cell research. This question is essentially “are there christians who are pro-choice?”
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:1. The PRC is not a Communist State, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
2. The CCP is not a Communist Party, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
3. Xi Jinping and his cronies are not Communists, as they have shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
How do we know this? Because the first step toward Communism is Socialism, and none of the aforementioned are even remotely Socialist in any way, shape, or form.
by Nuroblav » Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:40 pm
Pangurstan wrote:In my opinion, this has the same roots as the debate over abortion. If you think that an embryo has rights, then in addition to opposing abortion, you probably are anti-stem cell research. This question is essentially “are there christians who are pro-choice?”
by United Muscovite Nations » Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:44 pm
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:Pangurstan wrote:In my opinion, this has the same roots as the debate over abortion. If you think that an embryo has rights, then in addition to opposing abortion, you probably are anti-stem cell research. This question is essentially “are there christians who are pro-choice?”
Not quite the same one. There's more support for embryonic stem cell research than for fetal tissue research. This suggests some opposition to abortion is motivated by other things... desire to force an increase in birthrate, envy at those getting laid, superficial "but fetuses LOOK like babies" reactions that don't apply to the zygotes used in ESCR, etc... take your pick, it's all equally arbitrary and unverifiable what IS motivating anti-abortion types, all this tells us is what ISN'T motivating them, and what ISN'T motivating them is the "life begins at conception" platitude.
Thank goodness. "Life begins at conception" was especially absurd and was missing the point of the common use of the word "life" and the reason people are so indignant at actual murders. But that still leaves behind the question of why anti-abortion types PRETEND to agree with the "life begins at conception" platitude in the first place.
by Antityranicals » Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:47 pm
by LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:49 pm
United Muscovite Nations wrote:LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:Not quite the same one. There's more support for embryonic stem cell research than for fetal tissue research. This suggests some opposition to abortion is motivated by other things... desire to force an increase in birthrate, envy at those getting laid, superficial "but fetuses LOOK like babies" reactions that don't apply to the zygotes used in ESCR, etc... take your pick, it's all equally arbitrary and unverifiable what IS motivating anti-abortion types, all this tells us is what ISN'T motivating them, and what ISN'T motivating them is the "life begins at conception" platitude.
Thank goodness. "Life begins at conception" was especially absurd and was missing the point of the common use of the word "life" and the reason people are so indignant at actual murders. But that still leaves behind the question of why anti-abortion types PRETEND to agree with the "life begins at conception" platitude in the first place.
No it isn't. It's motivated by thinking that the fetus is a person. It's why we're against IVF too. People shouldn't necessarily try to psychoanalyze views of people they don't understand.
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:1. The PRC is not a Communist State, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
2. The CCP is not a Communist Party, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
3. Xi Jinping and his cronies are not Communists, as they have shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
How do we know this? Because the first step toward Communism is Socialism, and none of the aforementioned are even remotely Socialist in any way, shape, or form.
by Antityranicals » Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:49 pm
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:Pangurstan wrote:In my opinion, this has the same roots as the debate over abortion. If you think that an embryo has rights, then in addition to opposing abortion, you probably are anti-stem cell research. This question is essentially “are there christians who are pro-choice?”
Not quite the same one. There's more support for embryonic stem cell research than for fetal tissue research. This suggests some opposition to abortion is motivated by other things... desire to force an increase in birthrate, envy at those getting laid, superficial "but fetuses LOOK like babies" reactions that don't apply to the zygotes used in ESCR, etc... take your pick, it's all equally arbitrary and unverifiable what IS motivating anti-abortion types, all this tells us is what ISN'T motivating them, and what ISN'T motivating them is the "life begins at conception" platitude.
Thank goodness. "Life begins at conception" was especially absurd and was missing the point of the common use of the word "life" and the reason people are so indignant at actual murders. But that still leaves behind the question of why anti-abortion types PRETEND to agree with the "life begins at conception" platitude in the first place.
by Nuroblav » Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:52 pm
Antityranicals wrote:I've no problem with harvesting stem cells from adult body tissue, but to harvest them from embryos is, quite simply, murder.
by LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:52 pm
Antityranicals wrote:LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:Not quite the same one. There's more support for embryonic stem cell research than for fetal tissue research. This suggests some opposition to abortion is motivated by other things... desire to force an increase in birthrate, envy at those getting laid, superficial "but fetuses LOOK like babies" reactions that don't apply to the zygotes used in ESCR, etc... take your pick, it's all equally arbitrary and unverifiable what IS motivating anti-abortion types, all this tells us is what ISN'T motivating them, and what ISN'T motivating them is the "life begins at conception" platitude.
Thank goodness. "Life begins at conception" was especially absurd and was missing the point of the common use of the word "life" and the reason people are so indignant at actual murders. But that still leaves behind the question of why anti-abortion types PRETEND to agree with the "life begins at conception" platitude in the first place.
Wait a minute, so you're willing to buy that life doesn't begin at conception? That's just stupid. You could try to make the argument that while life begins at conception, it just doesn't matter until a certain point, but believing that life doesn't begin at conception is about as nonsensical as believing the earth is flat.
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:If you're against embryonic stem cell research... I get it. I don't agree with you, but I get it. And I wish to put that aside until stem cell as an issue in and of itself is the central issue of another thread, and/or it comes up in mainstream politics again... whichever comes first. But there's something I'm not as sure I get.
Of all the things religion has led to people opposing, most would otherwise have been tough dilemmas anyway. But I cannot think of a more clear-cut case of Christianity being in the wrong than embryonic stem cell research. You have cloned embryos; and/or embryos from in-vitro fertilizations; the latter of which people support anyway; being used to potentially save millions of lives. In the 2004 US election, the most religious states were the states who voted to re-elect the President who kind of made a show of his opposition to this stuff. The least-religious states were the ones who voted for his most mainstream rival. Whether that's an A causes B pattern, a B causes A pattern, or a C causes A and B pattern, it's still a pattern.
If you're in favour of both embryonic stem cell research and Christianity; which statistically at least some people have to be; how do you reconcile the two? How do you look at a religion that has so severely distorted people's sense of right and wrong and not immediately want it cut off at the source?
Quite frankly, I look at that and think, "well, what else could Christianity be distorting people's sense of right and wrong about"?
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:1. The PRC is not a Communist State, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
2. The CCP is not a Communist Party, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
3. Xi Jinping and his cronies are not Communists, as they have shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
How do we know this? Because the first step toward Communism is Socialism, and none of the aforementioned are even remotely Socialist in any way, shape, or form.
by United Muscovite Nations » Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:53 pm
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:United Muscovite Nations wrote:No it isn't. It's motivated by thinking that the fetus is a person. It's why we're against IVF too. People shouldn't necessarily try to psychoanalyze views of people they don't understand.
More people are in favour of IVF than abortion. Or at least claim to be. Even if they're faking it, that suggests conformity to some perceived outside observer who theoretically has some reason to support one and not the other. Either way that raises the question as to what that reason is.
EDIT: Used wrong link last time, please disregard previous link.
by LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:55 pm
United Muscovite Nations wrote:LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:More people are in favour of IVF than abortion. Or at least claim to be. Even if they're faking it, that suggests conformity to some perceived outside observer who theoretically has some reason to support one and not the other. Either way that raises the question as to what that reason is.
EDIT: Used wrong link last time, please disregard previous link.
That's because people don't know about the process of IVF. Church documents and positions are clear, however, that IVF is illicit and cannot be obtained without excommunication, both in Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy.
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:1. The PRC is not a Communist State, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
2. The CCP is not a Communist Party, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
3. Xi Jinping and his cronies are not Communists, as they have shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
How do we know this? Because the first step toward Communism is Socialism, and none of the aforementioned are even remotely Socialist in any way, shape, or form.
by Antityranicals » Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:55 pm
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:Antityranicals wrote:Wait a minute, so you're willing to buy that life doesn't begin at conception? That's just stupid. You could try to make the argument that while life begins at conception, it just doesn't matter until a certain point, but believing that life doesn't begin at conception is about as nonsensical as believing the earth is flat.LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:If you're against embryonic stem cell research... I get it. I don't agree with you, but I get it. And I wish to put that aside until stem cell as an issue in and of itself is the central issue of another thread, and/or it comes up in mainstream politics again... whichever comes first. But there's something I'm not as sure I get.
Of all the things religion has led to people opposing, most would otherwise have been tough dilemmas anyway. But I cannot think of a more clear-cut case of Christianity being in the wrong than embryonic stem cell research. You have cloned embryos; and/or embryos from in-vitro fertilizations; the latter of which people support anyway; being used to potentially save millions of lives. In the 2004 US election, the most religious states were the states who voted to re-elect the President who kind of made a show of his opposition to this stuff. The least-religious states were the ones who voted for his most mainstream rival. Whether that's an A causes B pattern, a B causes A pattern, or a C causes A and B pattern, it's still a pattern.
If you're in favour of both embryonic stem cell research and Christianity; which statistically at least some people have to be; how do you reconcile the two? How do you look at a religion that has so severely distorted people's sense of right and wrong and not immediately want it cut off at the source?
Quite frankly, I look at that and think, "well, what else could Christianity be distorting people's sense of right and wrong about"?
Emphasis mine. Let's save this tangent for another thread, and try to stay on topic for now.
by Page » Sat Jan 11, 2020 12:57 pm
by Antityranicals » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:00 pm
LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:United Muscovite Nations wrote:That's because people don't know about the process of IVF. Church documents and positions are clear, however, that IVF is illicit and cannot be obtained without excommunication, both in Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy.
...?
There's an infinite number of possible reasons one can support IVF while opposing abortion. Why do you arbitrarily choose "ignorance" as the first and foremost reason?
by LimaUniformNovemberAlpha » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:02 pm
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:1. The PRC is not a Communist State, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
2. The CCP is not a Communist Party, as it has shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
3. Xi Jinping and his cronies are not Communists, as they have shown absolutely zero interest in achieving Communism.
How do we know this? Because the first step toward Communism is Socialism, and none of the aforementioned are even remotely Socialist in any way, shape, or form.
by Isaris » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:02 pm
United Muscovite Nations wrote:LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:More people are in favour of IVF than abortion. Or at least claim to be. Even if they're faking it, that suggests conformity to some perceived outside observer who theoretically has some reason to support one and not the other. Either way that raises the question as to what that reason is.
EDIT: Used wrong link last time, please disregard previous link.
That's because people don't know about the process of IVF. Church documents and positions are clear, however, that IVF is illicit and cannot be obtained without excommunication, both in Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy.
by Antityranicals » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:02 pm
Page wrote:There isn't even a biblical basis for opposition to abortion and stem cell research. Anti-abortion Christians always point to the same verse, in which Yahweh says that he knew Job when he was formed in the womb, and to apply that to mean fetuses shouldn't be aborted is a reach. The more plausible context is to speak of Yahweh's omniscience, that he knows everyone who will ever exist since the beginning of time.
However, we do know that Yahweh believes that if a fetus is conceived by adultery that the woman should be subjected to a ritual in which a priest has her drink bitter water so that the bastard fetus will wither up and die. Ironic since "the baby shouldn't be punished for your mistake" is such a common line among the pro-life.
by United Muscovite Nations » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:02 pm
Antityranicals wrote:LimaUniformNovemberAlpha wrote:...?
There's an infinite number of possible reasons one can support IVF while opposing abortion. Why do you arbitrarily choose "ignorance" as the first and foremost reason?
From a Catholic point of view, IVF is without a doubt a lesser sin than abortion, as abortion is held to be murder, while IVF, for all of its moral issues, is certainly not murder. As such, I believe IVF should be legal, even if it is morally wrong, while I hold that abortion should be illegal.
by Antityranicals » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:04 pm
United Muscovite Nations wrote:Antityranicals wrote:From a Catholic point of view, IVF is without a doubt a lesser sin than abortion, as abortion is held to be murder, while IVF, for all of its moral issues, is certainly not murder. As such, I believe IVF should be legal, even if it is morally wrong, while I hold that abortion should be illegal.
That's not true, it involves the destruction of embryos, it is absolutely murder.
by Antityranicals » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:07 pm
Isaris wrote:United Muscovite Nations wrote:That's because people don't know about the process of IVF. Church documents and positions are clear, however, that IVF is illicit and cannot be obtained without excommunication, both in Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy.
That is full-blown stupid. IVF helps make babies. Why would Christians be against it?
by Kowani » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:12 pm
Antityranicals wrote:I've no problem with harvesting stem cells from adult body tissue, but to harvest them from embryos is, quite simply, murder.
by Rojava Free State » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:14 pm
Rojava Free State wrote:Listen yall. I'm only gonna say it once but I want you to remember it. This ain't a world fit for good men. It seems like you gotta be monstrous just to make it. Gotta have a little bit of darkness within you just to survive. You gotta stoop low everyday it seems like. Stoop all the way down to the devil in these times. And then one day you look in the mirror and you realize that you ain't you anymore. You're just another monster, and thanks to your actions, someone else will eventually become as warped and twisted as you. Never forget that the best of us are just the best of a bad lot. Being at the top of a pile of feces doesn't make you anything but shit like the rest. Never forget that.
by Outer Sparta » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:16 pm
Pangurstan wrote:In my opinion, this has the same roots as the debate over abortion. If you think that an embryo has rights, then in addition to opposing abortion, you probably are anti-stem cell research. This question is essentially “are there christians who are pro-choice?”
by Samadhi » Sat Jan 11, 2020 1:16 pm
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