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EPA science board to EPA management: Try using some science

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Neu California
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EPA science board to EPA management: Try using some science

Postby Neu California » Sun Jan 05, 2020 6:49 pm

(A few days old but whatever)

Ars Technica wrote:The Environmental Protection Agency has a Scientific Advisory Board (SAB) that has the ability to review actions taken by the agency and provide feedback on whether they're based on a solid scientific and technical foundation. Early in the Trump administration, many scientists appointed to the board during the Obama administration were not reappointed, and many were replaced by scientists and engineers working on industry. This raised fears that the SAB would go along quietly with the current administration's focus on pro-industry deregulation.

Those worries appear to have been misplaced. In preparation for a public meeting of the board scheduled for later this month, the SAB has released draft evaluations of a number of the EPA's signature policies under Trump, including new vehicle mileage standards and a scientific openness rule. And the results are scathing. Policy decisions are described as uselessly vague, having minimal scientific foundation and producing nonsensical results.

Policy minus science

The Trump administration came to office promising to eliminate government regulations where possible. This initiative has included a campaign to block limits on greenhouse gas emissions, which included a reduction in fuel efficiency standards for vehicles. But there have been lower-profile changes, like limiting planned standards on mercury emissions and water pollution. And there has been an effort to limit how much science is incorporated into future EPA decisions.

The SAB is tackling all of these in its draft comments, and in almost every case, it finds the science used by the EPA to either be questionable or missing entirely.

An effort to roll back planned controls on mercury emissions from power plants is the simplest example. "EPA’s residual risk assessment appears only to include [mercury in] fish consumed from small to mid-size lakes by fishermen and their families," which the SAB notes represents a small fraction of the fish consumed in the US. On other aspects of mercury exposure, the SAB found that the Food and Drug Administration had obtained more recent data and performed up-to-date analyses, but these weren't incorporated into the EPA's analysis. The report also found that earlier suggestions by the SAB had been ignored in the final EPA analysis.

That may sound bad, but things get worse. The Clean Water Act gives the EPA power to regulate pollution in the US' waterways and requires it to use the best available science to set the rules. During the Obama administration, following this dictate, the EPA recognized that the waterways it regulates are part of a system that includes groundwater, seasonal streams, and man-made bodies of water. It planned rules that would limit the pollution allowed into regulated waterways via these routes, which would greatly expand the entities subject to regulation.

The Trump administration is seeking to eliminate this proposed rule, and the SAB is not impressed. "The SAB discussed the scientific and technical underpinnings of the proposed [Waters of the US] rule and concluded that aspects of the proposed rule are in conflict with established science, the existing [Waters of the US] rule developed based on the established science, and the objectives of the Clean Water Act," the draft document says. The board says that the best available science supports the Obama-era decision to treat waterways as a coherent, interconnected whole—the perspective that the Trump administration is eliminating. "The proposed Rule offers no comparable body of peer reviewed evidence to support such a departure, and no scientific justification for abandoning the more expansive view of connectivity of waters accepted by current hydrological science," the SAB concludes.

To give a specific example, the SAB says that irrigation canals are a major source of water contamination and have been the source of E. coli outbreaks spread through vegetables.

The draft letter indicates that the SAB offered to place the rule on sounder scientific footing, but the EPA declined, deciding instead to focus on legal decisions that could be interpreted as calling for a more limited legal scope for regulation. The SAB notes that this justification seems to change with the politics of the current administration and is inconsistent with the requirement to use the best science.

Math problems and defining science

Next up, the SAB tackles proposed plans to reduce future automobile fuel efficiency standards. These were based on new models of car ownership that were incorporated into an existing analysis package. And those were, in part, not based on reality. The report indicates that these models have "weaknesses" in their theoretical underpinnings and actual economic analysis, leading to the nonsensical result that lowering efficiency standards will ensure lower-priced vehicles, which will somehow cause the car market to shrink. The EPA says that will lower the impact of the reduced efficiency.

Finally, the board turns to the EPA's recent decision to alter which scientific results it considers when developing new rules. The Trump administration is claiming that it's interested in increasing the openness of the science used in developing regulation by ensuring that the research is publicly accessible. That is theoretically a good thing, and the SAB applauds the sentiment. But the actual implementation runs into problems, namely that many of the studies involve confidential medical data that cannot be made public.

But the board argues that the problems are much more extensive than that. The plan calls for "raw data" to be made available to the public, but it doesn't define the term. This vagueness is present throughout. "The lack of criteria for what might satisfy the requirement makes it difficult to understand the implications," the board argues in regard to the proposal's lack of definition of what research needs to be made available. The rule suggests there may be exceptions to the requirement but doesn't say what they are.

It also doesn't explain how the public's access will be paid for. Archiving data involves ongoing costs, and the EPA hasn't made clear who was going to pay for them.

EPA policies face a tangled set of requirements. Policies have to be produced through the formal federal rulemaking process and be consistent with the legal abilities that Congress has designated to the EPA, often refined through court decisions. They have to address issues delegated to the EPA, such as clean air and water. In many cases, the laws that have delegated these powers to the EPA specify that the rulemaking process must incorporate scientific and economic analysis. Finally, to the extent that all of that allows, the policies have to be consistent with the political goals of the current administration.

The SAB's job is to highlight when one of those factors—the best available science—isn't being properly considered. That doesn't mean considering it will change a policy, given all those other factors. But the issues highlighted by the SAB suggest it's not being considered at all, which may make some of the Trump policies difficult to defend in court.

And it provides a solid indication that the SAB remains committed to identifying the best available science, even when that may not be popular with the EPA as a whole.


So the EPA's science board has told off the management for not using science and getting political. I likey

Anyway, NSG, did the SAB do the right thing in telling of their bosses, and are their scientific findings as a whole, or at least in part, correct?

I say they did and they are. I live in a state where water is a major issue, and water contamination is something that's important to me, as it means less usable and drinkable water, which causes more problems, hence the EPA's desire to expand water regulations are something I'm strongly in favor of. We don't need companies, agricultural or otherwise, dumping crap into our water to save a few bucks.
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Postby Rojava Free State » Sun Jan 05, 2020 7:44 pm

The EPA in the present day doesn't wanna use science because #1 then they'd have to admit global warming exists and #2 they wouldn't be able to speak with trump about anything without him saying "stop, my brain hurts"
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Postby Nobel Hobos 2 » Sun Jan 05, 2020 8:19 pm

The SA Board is going to get purged.
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Postby The Liberated Territories » Sun Jan 05, 2020 8:50 pm

Abolish the EPA

:dab:
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Postby Valrifell » Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:07 pm

What a weird time post-Scientific Revolution where scientific observations are hot-button social issues again.

I hate it.
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Postby Kowani » Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:18 pm

Rojava Free State wrote:The EPA in the present day doesn't wanna use science because #1 then they'd have to admit global warming exists and #2 they wouldn't be able to speak with trump about anything without him saying "stop, my brain hurts"

Image


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Postby Bombadil » Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:27 pm

I mean.. the EPA is headed by Andrew Wheeler, notable for being a lobbyist representing the coal producer Murray Energy, owned by Robert Murray. If you've not heard of Robert Murray just google his name with John Oliver. He's a thoroughly despicable person who throws around SLAPP lawsuits, which are designed to do nothing other than silence criticism while he constantly contravenes basic regulations on safety and pollution.

Well Oliver took him on, received a SLAPP lawsuit but fought through it.

Much of the controversy was around the Crandall Mine collapse where, even in the 12 months prior to the collapse, the Crandall Canyon Mine had received 64 violations and $12,000 in fines.

All of this was supposed to be watched over by the Mine Safety and Health Administration, under the Department of Labour. Who heads that?

From 2007 to 2014, Zatezalo was chairman of the coal company Rhino Resources. Rhino Resources clashed with federal regulators when the Obama administration tried to boost industry-wide mine safety enforcement. The company received pattern of violations warning letters from MSHA in 2010 and 2011, during a time when agency executive Joe Main was increasing enforcement following the Upper Big Branch Mine disaster.

I mean.. all this is a pattern of appointing wolves to guard chicken coops. In near every industry related to Health & Safety, the people in charge of government agency watchdogs are all headed by the worst culprits in those industries of consistently breaking the rules.

Trump has so thoroughly polluted the swamp rather than drain it that it's little surprise the EPA ignores basic science in favour of looser regulation despite its mandate.
Last edited by Bombadil on Sun Jan 05, 2020 9:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Outer Sparta » Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:06 pm

EPA management (controlled by industry reps) won't give a shit about their science board.
In solidarity with Ukraine, I will be censoring the letters Z and V from my signature. This is -ery much so a big change, but it should be a -ery positi-e one. -olodymyr -elensky and A-o- continue to fight for Ukraine while the Russians are still trying to e-entually make their way to Kharki-, -apori-h-hia, and Kry-yi Rih, but that will take time as they are concentrated in areas like Bakhmut, -uledar, and other areas in Donetsk. We will see Shakhtar play in the Europa League but Dynamo Kyi- already got eliminated. Shakhtar managed to play well against Florentino Pere-'s Real Madrid who feature superstars like -inicius, Ben-ema, Car-ajal, and -al-erde. Some prominent Ukrainian players that got big transfers elsewhere include Oleksander -inchenko, Illya -abarnyi, and Mykhailo Mudryk.

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Postby The Grims » Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:29 pm

So Trump is doing what he was elected to do?
Good for him.

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Postby Gormwood » Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:33 pm

The Liberated Territories wrote:Abolish the EPA

:dab:

Okay Scott Pruitt.
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Postby Rojava Free State » Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:48 pm

Outer Sparta wrote:EPA management (controlled by industry reps) won't give a shit about their science board.


Having people from the fossil fuels industries controlling the EPA is as bad of an idea as having anti vaxxers heading the CDC and FDA
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Postby Bombadil » Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:48 pm

The Grims wrote:So Trump is doing what he was elected to do?
Good for him.


Hire people who, like him, consistently break the law? Who pretend to speak for the people yet undermine all and every safety net underneath them. Half the issues with his good friend Robert Murray is that he consistently put his mineworkers at risk, to the point of death. Even in bankruptcy..

While his company spiraled into bankruptcy, Robert Murray spent tens of millions from the company coffers to pay himself, his successor, and several anti-science and anti-environment lobby groups, according to new court filings.

This money was spent at the same time as Murray is asking courts to excuse his debts to his workers, in the form of pensions and healthcare plans.


The extent to which people can be openly screwed yet maintain support for Trump and his bunch of mindless cronies is worthy of a global science project in and of itself.

This EPA thing, which includes removing the limits of mercury in fish.. I mean jesus.. is just another in a long line of people like Trump ensuring the law works for them and them only while the screw the common person, appealing to mindless racism and hatred to blind them of what's actually going on.
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Postby Outer Sparta » Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:51 pm

Rojava Free State wrote:
Outer Sparta wrote:EPA management (controlled by industry reps) won't give a shit about their science board.


Having people from the fossil fuels industries controlling the EPA is as bad of an idea as having anti vaxxers heading the CDC and FDA

The FAA is another federal agency under control of industry interests, for example, Boeing. Corporate takeover of regulatory agencies undermine their ability to do their job. In fact, under corporate control, they pander to corporate interests.
In solidarity with Ukraine, I will be censoring the letters Z and V from my signature. This is -ery much so a big change, but it should be a -ery positi-e one. -olodymyr -elensky and A-o- continue to fight for Ukraine while the Russians are still trying to e-entually make their way to Kharki-, -apori-h-hia, and Kry-yi Rih, but that will take time as they are concentrated in areas like Bakhmut, -uledar, and other areas in Donetsk. We will see Shakhtar play in the Europa League but Dynamo Kyi- already got eliminated. Shakhtar managed to play well against Florentino Pere-'s Real Madrid who feature superstars like -inicius, Ben-ema, Car-ajal, and -al-erde. Some prominent Ukrainian players that got big transfers elsewhere include Oleksander -inchenko, Illya -abarnyi, and Mykhailo Mudryk.

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Postby Gormwood » Sun Jan 05, 2020 10:54 pm

Outer Sparta wrote:
Rojava Free State wrote:
Having people from the fossil fuels industries controlling the EPA is as bad of an idea as having anti vaxxers heading the CDC and FDA

The FAA is another federal agency under control of industry interests, for example, Boeing. Corporate takeover of regulatory agencies undermine their ability to do their job. In fact, under corporate control, they pander to corporate interests.

Would not be surprised if Juul and Big Vape will try to slip a few into the FDA themselves. Although to be fair they were unjustly blamed for Vitamin E acetate in illegal THC juice and it's not like keeping cigarettes flavorless decreased youth smoking.
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Postby Outer Sparta » Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:01 pm

Gormwood wrote:
Outer Sparta wrote:The FAA is another federal agency under control of industry interests, for example, Boeing. Corporate takeover of regulatory agencies undermine their ability to do their job. In fact, under corporate control, they pander to corporate interests.

Would not be surprised if Juul and Big Vape will try to slip a few into the FDA themselves. Although to be fair they were unjustly blamed for Vitamin E acetate in illegal THC juice and it's not like keeping cigarettes flavorless decreased youth smoking.

It's in the industry's interest to take over regulatory agencies. Why bother with lobbying from the outside when you can take them over from the inside?
In solidarity with Ukraine, I will be censoring the letters Z and V from my signature. This is -ery much so a big change, but it should be a -ery positi-e one. -olodymyr -elensky and A-o- continue to fight for Ukraine while the Russians are still trying to e-entually make their way to Kharki-, -apori-h-hia, and Kry-yi Rih, but that will take time as they are concentrated in areas like Bakhmut, -uledar, and other areas in Donetsk. We will see Shakhtar play in the Europa League but Dynamo Kyi- already got eliminated. Shakhtar managed to play well against Florentino Pere-'s Real Madrid who feature superstars like -inicius, Ben-ema, Car-ajal, and -al-erde. Some prominent Ukrainian players that got big transfers elsewhere include Oleksander -inchenko, Illya -abarnyi, and Mykhailo Mudryk.

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Postby The Grims » Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:03 pm

Bombadil wrote:
The Grims wrote:So Trump is doing what he was elected to do?
Good for him.


Hire people who, like him, consistently break the law? Who pretend to speak for the people yet undermine all and every safety net underneath them. Half the issues with his good friend Robert Murray is that he consistently put his mineworkers at risk, to the point of death. Even in bankruptcy..

While his company spiraled into bankruptcy, Robert Murray spent tens of millions from the company coffers to pay himself, his successor, and several anti-science and anti-environment lobby groups, according to new court filings.

This money was spent at the same time as Murray is asking courts to excuse his debts to his workers, in the form of pensions and healthcare plans.


The extent to which people can be openly screwed yet maintain support for Trump and his bunch of mindless cronies is worthy of a global science project in and of itself.

This EPA thing, which includes removing the limits of mercury in fish.. I mean jesus.. is just another in a long line of people like Trump ensuring the law works for them and them only while the screw the common person, appealing to mindless racism and hatred to blind them of what's actually going on.


Which is what he was elected to do.

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Postby Bombadil » Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:26 pm

The Grims wrote:Which is what he was elected to do.


I can only imagine you've a point somewhere..

Meanwhile the EPA's response to all this..

“EPA always appreciates and respects the work and advice of the SAB. The commentary and reports may potentially be revised by the SAB members as they strive for a consensus on these documents.”

The EPA shall 'appreciate and respect' the hell out of the SAB until they make the required revisions to be consistent with our continued destruction of the environment.
Last edited by Bombadil on Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:26 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Thermodolia » Sun Jan 05, 2020 11:37 pm

Gormwood wrote:
Outer Sparta wrote:The FAA is another federal agency under control of industry interests, for example, Boeing. Corporate takeover of regulatory agencies undermine their ability to do their job. In fact, under corporate control, they pander to corporate interests.

Would not be surprised if Juul and Big Vape will try to slip a few into the FDA themselves. Although to be fair they were unjustly blamed for Vitamin E acetate in illegal THC juice and it's not like keeping cigarettes flavorless decreased youth smoking.

This why I’m not a fan of democracy. Even if you clear the corporate hacks out of the regulatory agencies some politician who had their campaign funded by or got lobbied by corporate hacks will put said corporate hacks on the agency boards.
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Postby Rojava Free State » Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:38 pm

This defeats the purpose as much as having members of the 13 mile harvard park brims gang as police officers
Last edited by Rojava Free State on Wed Jan 08, 2020 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Rojava Free State wrote:Listen yall. I'm only gonna say it once but I want you to remember it. This ain't a world fit for good men. It seems like you gotta be monstrous just to make it. Gotta have a little bit of darkness within you just to survive. You gotta stoop low everyday it seems like. Stoop all the way down to the devil in these times. And then one day you look in the mirror and you realize that you ain't you anymore. You're just another monster, and thanks to your actions, someone else will eventually become as warped and twisted as you. Never forget that the best of us are just the best of a bad lot. Being at the top of a pile of feces doesn't make you anything but shit like the rest. Never forget that.

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Postby Vetalia » Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:00 pm

But they’re manufactured — tremendous, if you’re into this, tremendous fumes, gases are spewing into the atmosphere. You know we have a world, right? So the world is tiny compared to the universe. So tremendous, tremendous amount of fumes and everything — you talk about the “carbon footprint” — fumes are spewing into the air, right? Spewing. Whether it’s in China, Germany, it’s going into the air. It’s our air, their air, everything, right?

We have a situation where we're looking very strongly at sinks and showers and other elements of bathrooms where you turn the faucet on -- and in areas where there's tremendous amounts of water, where the water rushes out to sea because you could never handle it, and you don't get any water, you turn on the faucet and you don't get any water. They take a shower and water comes dripping out. Just dripping out, very quietly dripping out," people are flushing toilets 10 times, 15 times, as opposed to once."


Don't worry, the management of the EPA is in the right hands.
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Postby Outer Sparta » Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:19 pm

Thermodolia wrote:
Gormwood wrote:Would not be surprised if Juul and Big Vape will try to slip a few into the FDA themselves. Although to be fair they were unjustly blamed for Vitamin E acetate in illegal THC juice and it's not like keeping cigarettes flavorless decreased youth smoking.

This why I’m not a fan of democracy. Even if you clear the corporate hacks out of the regulatory agencies some politician who had their campaign funded by or got lobbied by corporate hacks will put said corporate hacks on the agency boards.

Which is why big money should not be in politics. Currently, if I were a CEO of a huge corporation I could dump millions to candidates I want and be rewarded for my "donations" once my preferred candidates get elected and give me entitlements.
Last edited by Outer Sparta on Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
In solidarity with Ukraine, I will be censoring the letters Z and V from my signature. This is -ery much so a big change, but it should be a -ery positi-e one. -olodymyr -elensky and A-o- continue to fight for Ukraine while the Russians are still trying to e-entually make their way to Kharki-, -apori-h-hia, and Kry-yi Rih, but that will take time as they are concentrated in areas like Bakhmut, -uledar, and other areas in Donetsk. We will see Shakhtar play in the Europa League but Dynamo Kyi- already got eliminated. Shakhtar managed to play well against Florentino Pere-'s Real Madrid who feature superstars like -inicius, Ben-ema, Car-ajal, and -al-erde. Some prominent Ukrainian players that got big transfers elsewhere include Oleksander -inchenko, Illya -abarnyi, and Mykhailo Mudryk.

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Postby Cruciland » Wed Jan 08, 2020 9:27 pm

Trump purged the morons in the management, but failed to remove their sycophants- either because he couldn't or because he didn't see them as part of the alarmist problem. How unfortunate.
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Postby Darkmoon Conclave » Thu Jan 09, 2020 12:41 am

The Liberated Territories wrote:Abolish the EPA

That's very helpful, I'm sure we will benefit from having no environmental protections.

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Postby Aclion » Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:17 am

Darkmoon Conclave wrote:
The Liberated Territories wrote:Abolish the EPA

That's very helpful, I'm sure we will benefit from having no environmental protections.

I don't think you understand what the EPA does. It's more a tool for polluters to bypass the restrictiveness of common law then it is to protect the environment. The EPA is essentially an org companies go to buy a permit that says the pollution they're creating is permissible, and protect them from liability related to it.
Last edited by Aclion on Thu Jan 09, 2020 1:20 am, edited 1 time in total.
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