Iran vs the US Megathread

[Novus America]

So.... Trump kinda decided to kill a top Iranian military leader and Iraqi militia leader, both of whom were helping us fight ISIS. He says it’s retaliation for protesters in Iraq causing damage and threatening the US embassy. The protests were retaliation to the US bombing Iraq, which was in retaliation to a bombing that killed a US contractor, that we think might have been done by an Iranian-backed Iraqi militia. Iranians of all faiths and backgrounds are chanting “Marg bar Amarika”, or, Death to America (again), and the Iranian president says there will be revenge on the US, Iraqis are very angry. Hezbollah is super angry, and Israel is scared that Lebanon and Syria are gonna invade it in response to the assassination (and, ya know, Israel oppressing their brethren, Israel’s cousins essentially, the Palestinians). All together, not good.

If Syria and Lebanon tried to invade Israel the only thing they'd get is a nice huge stack of dead Lebanese and Syrians.

The Syrian Army is barely a shell of it's former self after years of fighting the civil war and Lebanon's army is a joke that can't even fight Hezbollah.

Israel isn't scared in the slightest, if anything they're likely internally cheering because they didn't have to do it themselves.

Speaking of I wonder if this will embolden Israel to go after some similar problems.

[The New California Republic]

If Syria and Lebanon tried to invade Israel the only thing they'd get is a nice huge stack of dead Lebanese and Syrians.

The Syrian Army is barely a shell of it's former self after years of fighting the civil war and Lebanon's army is a joke that can't even fight Hezbollah.

Israel isn't scared in the slightest, if anything they're likely internally cheering because they didn't have to do it themselves.

Speaking of I wonder if this will embolden Israel to go after some similar problems.

They already do.

[Novus America]

Speaking of I wonder if this will embolden Israel to go after some similar problems.

They already do.

They have launched a few strikes against Iranian targets in Syria but nothing this big or bold.

[Plzen]

You make it sound as if I support our government's hypocritical actions. I do not.

In this particular case we are discussing the United States that is, not the United States we would like to have.

And yet, the world we live in - one in which American influence is dominant - is far better than any immediate alternative. We are currently living in the most peaceful time in human history and that is largely in part thanks to the USA. Is it ideal? God no, the world is still in terrible shape all the same and could use serious help - including the U.S.

Certainly, we are living in the most peaceful time in human history. I find it difficult to accept the claim that this peace is the result of American unipolarity, however.

But that doesn't give countries like Iran the excuse to do the exact same foul shit Washington does, especially when Iran is indisputably a far worse country to live in.

Does it not? If Iran or the United States backs a coup d'etat and puts me under a repressive dictatorship, I don't think it will matter all that much to me whether the power that backed the coup happens to be democratic at home. If the US does something to another country, and it calls out another power for doing the same thing to a third party, then it's hypocrisy pure and simple.

The American liberals complaining about alleged Russian meddling in the 2016 US elections were particularly comedic to watch, on that note.

At least one could argue that America does what it does for it's own continued survival (most of the time, anyway) whereas Iran does what it does for the survival of it's government. The Ayatollah is no different than any other dictator. He cares for himself and his cronies first, just like Bin Laden and his lackeys did. Just like the Taliban, the CCP, the Soviets, the Nazis, Saddam Hussein, Mugabe, the Kims, etc. It's all the same shit. Authoritarians don't care about their countries; they care about themselves.

As you yourself point out, so do politicians in democratic countries. Leaders fear removal and defend the interests of people whose support they require to stay in power. That's as true for the President of the United States as it is for the Ayatollah of Iran. Since neither the President nor the Ayatollah requires the support of anyone who isn't an American nor an Iranian (at least, in theory), from the perspective of citizens in third powers there is no difference.

Halting the spread of Sino-Soviet influence was entirely justified. Communism is a ideological plague that destroys nations. We have 70 years evidence of this from over 30 countries. But sure, go ahead and pretend North Vietnam was a free country. Go ahead and pretend modern Vietnam is a free country.

How many freely elected democratic governments were overthrown by communist revolutionaries?

1953 Iran, 1954 Guatemala, 1964 Brazil, 1973 Chile. The United States is an institutional plague that destroys democracies.

[Novus America]

Mosaddegh was not a democrat. That meme needs to die.
He was elected once yes, but then seized dictatorial powers and banned subsequent elections after it appeared he would lose. Also although the US backed the military in overthrowing him, we did not cause it either.

[Plzen]

He was elected once yes, but then seized dictatorial powers and banned subsequent elections after it appeared he would lose. Also although the US backed the military in overthrowing him, we did not cause it either.

Well, yes, providing support to internal dissenters overthrowing a government is generally how covert regime change works.

Fair point about Iran '53 not being a freely elected government, though. I'll concede that.

[The Rapture Republic]

Warmongers are not human in my mind. They are a cesspool of individuals that need to be dealt with by whatever means necessary if we wish Humanity to ascend above this rock and travel the stars without the looming threat of thermonuclear annihilation. Invading Iran is a death sentence for Humanity when you consider the Russian and Chinese interests in that country. Anyone who says "Russia and China won't do anything, because US powerful" is a clown and delusional. They will defend their assets, and if we want to still be living and hope for the future of our species, root out the warmongers and begin a process of dialogue and lifting of sanctions to keep Humanity alive and not ashes.

[LimaUniformNovemberAlpha]

So even if they won't kill Bolsonaro for being a threat to the world, including the USA, but they'll kill someone else for being a threat to Americans even if they were not a threat to non-Americans?

[Ameriganastan]

It's like he gets off on pissing off entire countries. Christ, the election can't get here fast enough so I can vote to boot him out of office.

[Bear Stearns]

FUCK

[Jolthig]

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.haaret ... -1.8352156

Another airstrike, but nothing on the level as mentioned in the OP.

[Torrocca]

There's reports from journalists on Twitter that another airstrike just happened in Iraq, this time targeting Shiite leaders a day before a scheduled protest by Shiites.

I'd imagine that many groups in the Middle East aren't going to wait long to form some form of coalition or something in response to this bullshit. Iraq and Iran are definitely going to be hellbent against the US.

[Nakena]

There's reports from journalists on Twitter that another airstrike just happened in Iraq, this time targeting Shiite leaders a day before a scheduled protest by Shiites.

I'd imagine that many groups in the Middle East aren't going to wait long to form some form of coalition or something in response to this bullshit. Iraq and Iran are definitely going to be hellbent against the US.

Nah the US are here clearly on the sunni side. I wouldn be surprised if they cheer Trump for his actions as we speak. Thats the real thing here that the US have become involved in an inner-islamic middle eastern conflict.

[Rojava Free State]

So.... Trump kinda decided to kill a top Iranian military leader and Iraqi militia leader, both of whom were helping us fight ISIS. He says it’s retaliation for protesters in Iraq causing damage and threatening the US embassy. The protests were retaliation to the US bombing Iraq, which was in retaliation to a bombing that killed a US contractor, that we think might have been done by an Iranian-backed Iraqi militia. Iranians of all faiths and backgrounds are chanting “Marg bar Amarika”, or, Death to America (again), and the Iranian president says there will be revenge on the US, Iraqis are very angry. Hezbollah is super angry, and Israel is scared that Lebanon and Syria are gonna invade it in response to the assassination (and, ya know, Israel oppressing their brethren, Israel’s cousins essentially, the Palestinians). All together, not good.

If Syria and Lebanon tried to invade Israel the only thing they'd get is a nice huge stack of dead Lebanese and Syrians.

The Syrian Army is barely a shell of it's former self after years of fighting the civil war and Lebanon's army is a joke that can't even fight Hezbollah.

Israel isn't scared in the slightest, if anything they're likely internally cheering because they didn't have to do it themselves.

Why would Israel not be scared? Their last war with Lebanon was a disaster for them

[Washington Resistance Army]

Iraq and Iran are definitely going to be hellbent against the US.

Idk non-Shiite Iraqis are probably pretty fucking ecstatic about Iran getting owned

[Rojava Free State]

Mosaddegh was not a democrat. That meme needs to die.
He was elected once yes, but then seized dictatorial powers and banned subsequent elections after it appeared he would lose. Also although the US backed the military in overthrowing him, we did not cause it either.

Mossadeq was elected. The Shah was not. We aided in his overthrow. Is it really hard to understand why Iranians don't like america?

[Loben The 2nd]

a PMU medical convoy was apparently targeted.

no idea if thats under the Geneva convention.

[Thermodolia]

Hello Brother,
Many Iranians unfortunately support their government, and ones that don’t, probably like it more than the US one because of the assassination.

I highly doubt that.

When you're seeking to compare two things, whataboutism is absolutely an argument. If I was, hypothetically, trying to argue that Iran is not bad, positive form, then yes, whataboutism is no argument. But in this case I am trying to show that Iran is not worse, comparative form, and in this case pointing out that the US and the regimes she backs shares the same flaws that Iran does is absolutely a valid argument.

The US backs the Saudis, which honestly might be all I need to say to demonstrate what kind of influence the US has on world politics.

The United States conducts diplomacy in a self-interested, risk-averse manner. Chiang, Pinochet, Chun, or al-Saud may have been terrible dictators with horrifying records, but the countries they ruled share the same enemies as the US and so the US happily supports them. The US fights against countries that threatens their interests, and if they happen to also be democratic then so much the worse for them. There isn't anything inherently wrong with that, honestly; a community must look out for their own first and foremost and others second. It is, however, quite incredibly irritating when it tries to hypocritically denounce other countries for conducting diplomacy in a similarly self-interested, risk-averse manner.

"Denuclearise," says the country with the planet's second largest nuclear arsenal, "for you are threatening world peace."

Well, I contend that the amount of harm a country does inflict on world peace is in direct proportion to the amount of harm a country can inflict on world peace, with our sole superpower the United States at the top of the list, and honestly to me the behaviour of the so-called moral "democratic world" seems largely in line with that.

You make it sound as if I support our government's hypocritical actions. I do not. And yet, the world we live in - one in which American influence is dominant - is far better than any immediate alternative. We are currently living in the most peaceful time in human history and that is largely in part thanks to the USA. Is it ideal? God no, the world is still in terrible shape all the same and could use serious help - including the U.S.

But that doesn't give countries like Iran the excuse to do the exact same foul shit Washington does, especially when Iran is indisputably a far worse country to live in. At least one could argue that America does what it does for it's own continued survival (most of the time, anyway) whereas Iran does what it does for the survival of it's government. The Ayatollah is no different than any other dictator. He cares for himself and his cronies first, just like Bin Laden and his lackeys did. Just like the Taliban, the CCP, the Soviets, the Nazis, Saddam Hussein, Mugabe, the Kims, etc. It's all the same shit. Authoritarians don't care about their countries; they care about themselves.

While you could argue the same is true for many American politicians, at least we have the ability to remove those scumbags from power. You can't say the same for any of those other bastards.

Vietnam

Halting the spread of Sino-Soviet influence was entirely justified. Communism is a ideological plague that destroys nations. We have 70 years evidence of this from over 30 countries. But sure, go ahead and pretend North Vietnam was a free country. Go ahead and pretend modern Vietnam is a free country.

That's all you can do. Pretend.

Iraq

Already mentioned it. The one instance in which you're right.

all the freaking "interventions" in South America

I don't recall any U.S. invasion of a South American country. We've meddled in their affairs quite a bit, but meddling is not warfare. Try again.

American Imperialism doesn't exist my ass. Just fucking own up to it. At least then I can respect your position.

I can't own up to something that doesn't exist. Just because a country has the power to look out for it's interests and does so doesn't make it imperialistic. These are not the same things.

Actually it was just Soviets in Vietnam. The Chinese actually invaded not long after the war ended

[Northern Dependencies]

We killed a terrorist, someone who was responsible for the deaths of hundreds of Americans.

I don't see what the problem is.

[Rojava Free State]

The only war in which you can claim "false pretences" is Iraq, sorry to say. But sure, keep that "American Imperialism" meme spinning why don't you? It's not like it hasn't been done to death already.

? Are you high? Vietnam, Iraq and all the freaking "interventions" in South America

American Imperialism doesn't exist my ass. Just fucking own up to it. At least then I can respect your position.

Trollzyn is fighting a losing battle trying to claim America doesn't have a history of preemptively invading places, overthrowing Democratic leaders and arming terrorists.

[Northern Dependencies]

There's reports from journalists on Twitter that another airstrike just happened in Iraq, this time targeting Shiite leaders a day before a scheduled protest by Shiites.

I'd imagine that many groups in the Middle East aren't going to wait long to form some form of coalition or something in response to this bullshit. Iraq and Iran are definitely going to be hellbent against the US.

Nah the US are here clearly on the sunni side. I wouldn be surprised if they cheer Trump for his actions as we speak. Thats the real thing here that the US have become involved in an inner-islamic middle eastern conflict.

They already are.

[Rojava Free State]

We killed a terrorist, someone who was responsible for the deaths of hundreds of Americans.

I don't see what the problem is.

Because the so called terrorist was a general in a country's army, and his death may bring about even more hardship for our troops on the ground

[Rojava Free State]

a PMU medical convoy was apparently targeted.

no idea if thats under the Geneva convention.

By Iran or us?

[The New California Republic]

We killed a terrorist, someone who was responsible for the deaths of hundreds of Americans.

I don't see what the problem is.

The problem is that it has made Iran all pissy. More so. Again.

[Loben The 2nd]

a PMU medical convoy was apparently targeted.

no idea if thats under the Geneva convention.

By Iran or us?

considering the PMU is an Iranian backed group.....