Iran vs the US Megathread

[San Lumen]

[...] torture and kill dissenters through a secret police force, persecute minorities, ignore international law and build weapons of mass destruction, constantly aggravate and threaten neighboring countries, fund terrorists and orchestrate acts of terrorism themselves [...]

Because the US and her allies would never do these things, eh?

Iran has demonstrated that it has absolutely no morality when it acts on the international stage. In that way it's very much like the US. Given two psychopath gunmen, I think I'm more afraid of the one that has the bigger gun.

except a war with Iran wouldn't be a cakewalk. It would be a brutal affair the US would isolated in with tens of thousands dead.

[Insaanistan]

Because the US and her allies would never do these things, eh?

Iran has demonstrated that it has absolutely no morality when it acts on the international stage. In that way it's very much like the US. Given two psychopath gunmen, I think I'm more afraid of the one that has the bigger gun.

except a war with Iran wouldn't be a cakewalk. It would be a brutal affair the US would isolated in with tens of thousands dead.

Hello Brother,
Very, very true. It would be worse than Iraq. Maybe even than Vietnam. I’ll find the AlternateHistoryHub video on it some time.

[Asherahan]

Only the weak seek excuses for their actions. The strong just say it to your face.

Only savages go to war without justification.

Hello Brother,
1. Yeah, but that doesn’t mean Iran messes with the embassy
2. No I didn’t forget the war on Terrorism that many racists have turned into a war on my religion, Islam. And Hezbollah is in Lebanon, Syria and Palestine, not Iraq and Iran, though they are Iranian backed.

Hezbollah is an extension of Iran's influence just as the Viet Cong was an extension of North Vietnam's, therefor Iran is directly responsible.

I will tell that to the ancient Athenians that gave us democracy.

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

[...] torture and kill dissenters through a secret police force, persecute minorities, ignore international law and build weapons of mass destruction, constantly aggravate and threaten neighboring countries, fund terrorists and orchestrate acts of terrorism themselves [...]

Because the US and her allies would never do these things, eh?

Iran has demonstrated that it has absolutely no morality when it acts on the international stage. In that way it's very much like the US. Given two psychopath gunmen, I think I'm more afraid of the one that has the bigger gun.

Maybe if the people we've been "messing up for a few decades" weren't fundamentalist psychopaths who throw gays off buildings, treat women as slaves, torture and kill dissenters through a secret police force, persecute minorities, ignore international law and build weapons of mass destruction, constantly aggravate and threaten neighboring countries, fund terrorists and orchestrate acts of terrorism themselves then maybe - just maybe - they wouldn't deserve to be "messed up".

The fact people actually unironically think Iran is somehow a victim in any way, shape, or form is truly staggering.

Hello Brother,
That’s 1/4 fake, 1/4 stuff out “ally” Saudi Arabia does, 1/4 what the US does, 1/8 what Israel does, and 1/8 what Iran does.
I am not pro-Iran or Hezbollah. I am not anti-Semitic. I am not unpatriotic. I am not treasonous.

The U.S. & Israel need improvement; Saudi Arabia is in the same league as Iran. Now that that's out of the way: Whataboutism is not an argument.

And for the record, of the "two" psychopathic gunmen I'd take the one that doesn't punish people for not covering their hair.

Because the US and her allies would never do these things, eh?

Iran has demonstrated that it has absolutely no morality when it acts on the international stage. In that way it's very much like the US. Given two psychopath gunmen, I think I'm more afraid of the one that has the bigger gun.

except a war with Iran wouldn't be a cakewalk. It would be a brutal affair the US would isolated in with tens of thousands dead.

Actually, it would be if a competent tactician were in charge of the campaign. Unfortunately we're stuck with Trump instead.

[Repubblica Fascista Sociale Italiana]

Rose McGowan tweeted saying she “apologizes because America disrespected their flag and people”
What’s hilarious is that she tweeted an Iranian Monarchist flag

You know, just when I think our sitting president is an embarrassment to America, some pundit or Hollywood celebrity decides to top him...

[San Lumen]

Because the US and her allies would never do these things, eh?

Iran has demonstrated that it has absolutely no morality when it acts on the international stage. In that way it's very much like the US. Given two psychopath gunmen, I think I'm more afraid of the one that has the bigger gun.

Hello Brother,
That’s 1/4 fake, 1/4 stuff out “ally” Saudi Arabia does, 1/4 what the US does, 1/8 what Israel does, and 1/8 what Iran does.
I am not pro-Iran or Hezbollah. I am not anti-Semitic. I am not unpatriotic. I am not treasonous.

The U.S. & Israel need improvement; Saudi Arabia is in the same league as Iran. Now that that's out of the way: Whataboutism is not an argument.

And for the record, of the "two" psychopathic gunmen I'd take the one that doesn't punish people for not covering their hair.

except a war with Iran wouldn't be a cakewalk. It would be a brutal affair the US would isolated in with tens of thousands dead.

Actually, it would be if a competent tactician were in charge of the campaign. Unfortunately we're stuck with Trump instead.

It would guarantee his reelection though

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

Only savages go to war without justification.



Hezbollah is an extension of Iran's influence just as the Viet Cong was an extension of North Vietnam's, therefor Iran is directly responsible.

I will tell that to the ancient Athenians that gave us democracy.

"Ancient" being the keyword here. I think you may have some misgivings about who had rights in Athenian "Democracy", as well.

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

Rose McGowan tweeted saying she “apologizes because America disrespected their flag and people”
What’s hilarious is that she tweeted an Iranian Monarchist flag

You know, just when I think our sitting president is an embarrassment to America, some pundit or Hollywood celebrity decides to top him...

What's really embarrassing is that she thinks the Iranian people have any love for their own government.

[Asherahan]

I will tell that to the ancient Athenians that gave us democracy.

"Ancient" being the keyword here. I think you may have some misgivings about who had rights in Athenian "Democracy", as well.

I am Greek I know how Athenian Democracy better than you. And for the record going to war for no reason other than politics is better than going to war with false pretences like the US does.

[Jolthig]

https://www.cnn.com/2020/01/03/politics ... Af2TQCXviI

[The Rurkovich Imperium]

Rose McGowan tweeted saying she “apologizes because America disrespected their flag and people”
What’s hilarious is that she tweeted an Iranian Monarchist flag

You know, just when I think our sitting president is an embarrassment to America, some pundit or Hollywood celebrity decides to top him...

Perhaps a little more than a cursory glance at recent events will be in order next time. I'm not one to usually make this sort of argument, but if the other party had given this order I feel like this tweet would not exist.

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

"Ancient" being the keyword here. I think you may have some misgivings about who had rights in Athenian "Democracy", as well.

I am Greek I know how Athenian Democracy better than you. And for the record going to war for no reason other than politics is better than going to war with false pretences like the US does.

The only war in which you can claim "false pretenses" is Iraq, sorry to say. But sure, keep that "American Imperialism" meme spinning why don't you? It's not like it hasn't been done to death already.

[Novus America]

No it wouldn't have been. Also why are you so gang ho for war?

Im not. A war with Iran would be devastating and mean tens of thousands of our young men and women being killed for no reason

Not necessarily. Again there is a lot of ways a war could be conducted. It would not have to be and would not be done in a way remotely similar to Iraq.

And an open conventional war is not happening either.

[Washington Resistance Army]

I feel as though this was long coming. Something needs to be done about the Middle East, maybe even war.

You've tried war by proxy 1979-1988
You've tried direct invasions 1990-1991 and 2003 - present
You've tried creating radicals as custom made proxies for yet more war by proxy 2005 - present
You've tried war by drones 2014 - present
You've tried war by supplying warring parties with weapons

So "MAYBE even war" does not apply here. We are talking 40+ years of actual certain war. And unless all of this was a smashing succes (and thousands of dead Americans suggest it definitely wasn't) MAYBE war doesn't work for you. Try something else.

Idk given how massively lopsided the casualties always have been it's pretty easy to say war works for us. We've just never had a single cohesive strategy in mind on what to do after we're done beating the shit out of whoever.

[Insaanistan]

Rose McGowan tweeted saying she “apologizes because America disrespected their flag and people”
What’s hilarious is that she tweeted an Iranian Monarchist flag

You know, just when I think our sitting president is an embarrassment to America, some pundit or Hollywood celebrity decides to top him...

What's really embarrassing is that she thinks the Iranian people have any love for their own government.

Hello Brother,
Many Iranians unfortunately support their government, and ones that don’t, probably like it more than the US one because of the assassination.

[Plzen]

The U.S. & Israel need improvement; Saudi Arabia is in the same league as Iran. Now that that's out of the way: Whataboutism is not an argument.

When you're seeking to compare two things, whataboutism is absolutely an argument. If I was, hypothetically, trying to argue that Iran is not bad, positive form, then yes, whataboutism is no argument. But in this case I am trying to show that Iran is not worse, comparative form, and in this case pointing out that the US and the regimes she backs shares the same flaws that Iran does is absolutely a valid argument.

The US backs the Saudis, which honestly might be all I need to say to demonstrate what kind of influence the US has on world politics.

The United States conducts diplomacy in a self-interested, risk-averse manner. Chiang, Pinochet, Chun, or al-Saud may have been terrible dictators with horrifying records, but the countries they ruled share the same enemies as the US and so the US happily supports them. The US fights against countries that threatens their interests, and if they happen to also be democratic then so much the worse for them. There isn't anything inherently wrong with that, honestly; a community must look out for their own first and foremost and others second. It is, however, quite incredibly irritating when it tries to hypocritically denounce other countries for conducting diplomacy in a similarly self-interested, risk-averse manner.

"Denuclearise," says the country with the planet's second largest nuclear arsenal, "for you are threatening world peace."

Well, I contend that the amount of harm a country does inflict on world peace is in direct proportion to the amount of harm a country can inflict on world peace with our sole superpower the United States at the top of the list, and honestly to me the behaviour of the so-called moral "democratic world" seems to reaffirm that contention.

[Ethel mermania]

Does iran host a Kurdish population?

[Asherahan]

I am Greek I know how Athenian Democracy better than you. And for the record going to war for no reason other than politics is better than going to war with false pretences like the US does.

The only war in which you can claim "false pretences" is Iraq, sorry to say. But sure, keep that "American Imperialism" meme spinning why don't you? It's not like it hasn't been done to death already.

? Are you high? Vietnam, Iraq and all the freaking "interventions" in South America

American Imperialism doesn't exist my ass. Just fucking own up to it. At least then I can respect your position.

[Farnhamia]

Does iran host a Kurdish population?

Second only to Turkey. You could look that up, Ethel.

---

except a war with Iran wouldn't be a cakewalk. It would be a brutal affair the US would isolated in with tens of thousands dead.

Hello Brother,
Very, very true. It would be worse than Iraq. Maybe even than Vietnam. I’ll find the AlternateHistoryHub video on it some time.

A little piece of advice, please stop addressing everyone you interact with as "Brother." It's verging on the annoying, and not everyone here is male.

[Novus America]

Does iran host a Kurdish population?

It does, there is a large Kurdish population in the North West parts. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnicities_in_Iran

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

What's really embarrassing is that she thinks the Iranian people have any love for their own government.

Hello Brother,
Many Iranians unfortunately support their government, and ones that don’t, probably like it more than the US one because of the assassination.

I highly doubt that.

The U.S. & Israel need improvement; Saudi Arabia is in the same league as Iran. Now that that's out of the way: Whataboutism is not an argument.

When you're seeking to compare two things, whataboutism is absolutely an argument. If I was, hypothetically, trying to argue that Iran is not bad, positive form, then yes, whataboutism is no argument. But in this case I am trying to show that Iran is not worse, comparative form, and in this case pointing out that the US and the regimes she backs shares the same flaws that Iran does is absolutely a valid argument.

The US backs the Saudis, which honestly might be all I need to say to demonstrate what kind of influence the US has on world politics.

The United States conducts diplomacy in a self-interested, risk-averse manner. Chiang, Pinochet, Chun, or al-Saud may have been terrible dictators with horrifying records, but the countries they ruled share the same enemies as the US and so the US happily supports them. The US fights against countries that threatens their interests, and if they happen to also be democratic then so much the worse for them. There isn't anything inherently wrong with that, honestly; a community must look out for their own first and foremost and others second. It is, however, quite incredibly irritating when it tries to hypocritically denounce other countries for conducting diplomacy in a similarly self-interested, risk-averse manner.

"Denuclearise," says the country with the planet's second largest nuclear arsenal, "for you are threatening world peace."

Well, I contend that the amount of harm a country does inflict on world peace is in direct proportion to the amount of harm a country can inflict on world peace, with our sole superpower the United States at the top of the list, and honestly to me the behaviour of the so-called moral "democratic world" seems largely in line with that.

You make it sound as if I support our government's hypocritical actions. I do not. And yet, the world we live in - one in which American influence is dominant - is far better than any immediate alternative. We are currently living in the most peaceful time in human history and that is largely in part thanks to the USA. Is it ideal? God no, the world is still in terrible shape all the same and could use serious help - including the U.S.

But that doesn't give countries like Iran the excuse to do the exact same foul shit Washington does, especially when Iran is indisputably a far worse country to live in. At least one could argue that America does what it does for it's own continued survival (most of the time, anyway) whereas Iran does what it does for the survival of it's government. The Ayatollah is no different than any other dictator. He cares for himself and his cronies first, just like Bin Laden and his lackeys did. Just like the Taliban, the CCP, the Soviets, the Nazis, Saddam Hussein, Mugabe, the Kims, etc. It's all the same shit. Authoritarians don't care about their countries; they care about themselves.

While you could argue the same is true for many American politicians, at least we have the ability to remove those scumbags from power. You can't say the same for any of those other bastards.

Vietnam

Halting the spread of Sino-Soviet influence was entirely justified. Communism is a ideological plague that destroys nations. We have 70 years evidence of this from over 30 countries. But sure, go ahead and pretend North Vietnam was a free country. Go ahead and pretend modern Vietnam is a free country.

That's all you can do. Pretend.

Iraq

Already mentioned it. The one instance in which you're right.

all the freaking "interventions" in South America

I don't recall any U.S. invasion of a South American country. We've meddled in their affairs quite a bit, but meddling is not warfare. Try again.

American Imperialism doesn't exist my ass. Just fucking own up to it. At least then I can respect your position.

I can't own up to something that doesn't exist. Just because a country has the power to look out for it's interests and does so doesn't make it imperialistic. These are not the same things.

[Ethel mermania]

Does iran host a Kurdish population?

Second only to Turkey. You could look that up, Ethel.

---

Hello Brother,
Very, very true. It would be worse than Iraq. Maybe even than Vietnam. I’ll find the AlternateHistoryHub video on it some time.

A little piece of advice, please stop addressing everyone you interact with as "Brother." It's verging on the annoying, and not everyone here is male.

I did look it up before I posted. I am just wondering if Iran retaliates, is the next step for america to fund a kurdish separatist movement.

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

Second only to Turkey. You could look that up, Ethel.

---

A little piece of advice, please stop addressing everyone you interact with as "Brother." It's verging on the annoying, and not everyone here is male.

I did look it up before I posted. I am just wondering if Iran retaliates, is the next step for america to fund a kurdish separatist movement.

That is far from ideal. The Iranian people largely dislike their government. We need to use that to our advantage, and the best way to do that is by not carving up their country.

[The Lone Alliance]

So.... Trump kinda decided to kill a top Iranian military leader and Iraqi militia leader, both of whom were helping us fight ISIS. He says it’s retaliation for protesters in Iraq causing damage and threatening the US embassy. The protests were retaliation to the US bombing Iraq, which was in retaliation to a bombing that killed a US contractor, that we think might have been done by an Iranian-backed Iraqi militia. Iranians of all faiths and backgrounds are chanting “Marg bar Amarika”, or, Death to America (again), and the Iranian president says there will be revenge on the US, Iraqis are very angry. Hezbollah is super angry, and Israel is scared that Lebanon and Syria are gonna invade it in response to the assassination (and, ya know, Israel oppressing their brethren, Israel’s cousins essentially, the Palestinians). All together, not good.

If Syria and Lebanon tried to invade Israel the only thing they'd get is a nice huge stack of dead Lebanese and Syrians.

The Syrian Army is barely a shell of it's former self after years of fighting the civil war and Lebanon's army is a joke that can't even fight Hezbollah.

Israel isn't scared in the slightest, if anything they're likely internally cheering because they didn't have to do it themselves.

[Vistulange]

Second only to Turkey. You could look that up, Ethel.

---

A little piece of advice, please stop addressing everyone you interact with as "Brother." It's verging on the annoying, and not everyone here is male.

I did look it up before I posted. I am just wondering if Iran retaliates, is the next step for america to fund a kurdish separatist movement.

PJAK is similar to the PKK in that they are being fought against by Iran. The reason why the PYD was a viable option in Syria was because the central government - for practical purposes - could not exercise its authority against the PYD.