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2020 Taiwanese Election

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Who do you support in the 2020 Taiwanese Presidential Election?

Tsai Ing-Wen / DPP
75
78%
Han Kuo-Yu / KMT
17
18%
James Soong / PFP
2
2%
Others
2
2%
 
Total votes : 96

User avatar
Catburg
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 466
Founded: Dec 27, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Catburg » Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:25 am

Novus America wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
the people on the island are ethnic Han Chinese (mostly)



it makes no sense to discard the Republic of China identity when that is a beneficial part of the island's historical roots

No one is saying, "join the PRC now," you can do it in a few decades when things are more to your liking but the economy of the island is already bad enough as it is without further needless confrontationalism and identity politics


Ethnicity is not everything. Ethnicity does not mean you want to be a part of another state that shares the same ethnicity. Historically Taiwan has never been part of the PRC.
The people care more about their freedom than ethnic nationalism.

And again if the PRC fell and was replaced by a halfway decent confederal or federal China, I am sure support for independence in Taiwan would dramatically drop.

The PRC is the problem, not the people of Taiwan who are just trying to protect themselves and their identity. And they have never been part of the PRC.
Han Chinese is not really meaningful anyways as it is something like being Slavic. It is a very over-broad ethnic grouping, with many different languages and cultures within it.

And the PRC will never be to their liking, under Xi it is getting worse, not better.
The only way to get a Chinese government too their liking (a free, at least somewhat representative and democratic, federal or confederal government) is for the PRC to end.

As long as the PRC exists they will not want to be part of it.

And their economy is actually doing well enough as is:
https://focustaiwan.tw/business/201912190019

Exactly. The PRC is an absurd entity that has nothing to do with the ordinary Chinese people.

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Infected Mushroom
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 29549
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:36 am

Novus America wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
the people on the island are ethnic Han Chinese (mostly)



it makes no sense to discard the Republic of China identity when that is a beneficial part of the island's historical roots

No one is saying, "join the PRC now," you can do it in a few decades when things are more to your liking but the economy of the island is already bad enough as it is without further needless confrontationalism and identity politics


Ethnicity is not everything. Ethnicity does not mean you want to be a part of another state that shares the same ethnicity. Historically Taiwan has never been part of the PRC.
The people care more about their freedom than ethnic nationalism.

And again if the PRC fell and was replaced by a halfway decent confederal or federal China, I am sure support for independence in Taiwan would dramatically drop.

The PRC is the problem, not the people of Taiwan who are just trying to protect themselves and their identity. And they have never been part of the PRC.
Han Chinese is not really meaningful anyways as it is something like being Slavic. It is a very over-broad ethnic grouping, with many different languages and cultures within it.

And the PRC will never be to their liking, under Xi it is getting worse, not better.
The only way to get a Chinese government too their liking (a free, at least somewhat representative and democratic, federal or confederal government) is for the PRC to end.

As long as the PRC exists they will not want to be part of it.

And their economy is actually doing well enough as is:
https://focustaiwan.tw/business/201912190019


The KMT economic policy still makes more sense. Also, as I've said, embracing a Chinese identity doesn't necessarily mean immediate unification with the PRC.

There's been periods of KMT governance (democratically elected) in Taiwan, and in general, the policies made more sense.
I believe in justice and law and order.

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Art Thread (http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic ... #p19679163)

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Novus America
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 29316
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:41 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Ethnicity is not everything. Ethnicity does not mean you want to be a part of another state that shares the same ethnicity. Historically Taiwan has never been part of the PRC.
The people care more about their freedom than ethnic nationalism.

And again if the PRC fell and was replaced by a halfway decent confederal or federal China, I am sure support for independence in Taiwan would dramatically drop.

The PRC is the problem, not the people of Taiwan who are just trying to protect themselves and their identity. And they have never been part of the PRC.
Han Chinese is not really meaningful anyways as it is something like being Slavic. It is a very over-broad ethnic grouping, with many different languages and cultures within it.

And the PRC will never be to their liking, under Xi it is getting worse, not better.
The only way to get a Chinese government too their liking (a free, at least somewhat representative and democratic, federal or confederal government) is for the PRC to end.

As long as the PRC exists they will not want to be part of it.

And their economy is actually doing well enough as is:
https://focustaiwan.tw/business/201912190019


The KMT economic policy still makes more sense. Also, as I've said, embracing a Chinese identity doesn't necessarily mean immediate unification with the PRC.

There's been periods of KMT governance (democratically elected) in Taiwan, and in general, the policies made more sense.


Except as previously explained, the PRC uses its economy to establish its political goals, so the KMT economic policy is a risk to Taiwan.
Economic domination becomes political control.

And again Taiwan preserving its freedom and prosperity means NEVER united with the PRC.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Greater Persian State
Diplomat
 
Posts: 715
Founded: Aug 19, 2016
Democratic Socialists

Postby Greater Persian State » Sat Jan 11, 2020 7:55 am

Glorious Tsai LANDSLIDE

Long live Free China!

Long live the dream of Sun Yat Sen!

Long live Democracy!
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Novus America
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 29316
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:02 am

This is interesting:
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politic ... ai-ing-wen
A university in the PRC correctly predicted the outcome but shortly after releasing the study was forced to delete it.
Showing how far academic freedom in the PRC is dropping.

And how arrogant and ignorant the PRC leadership has become.
Apparently they think they can hide from facts via censorship.

Which is horrible both for academic quality and sound decision making.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

User avatar
Infected Mushroom
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 29549
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:17 am

Novus America wrote:This is interesting:
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politic ... ai-ing-wen
A university in the PRC correctly predicted the outcome but shortly after releasing the study was forced to delete it.
Showing how far academic freedom in the PRC is dropping.

And how arrogant and ignorant the PRC leadership has become.
Apparently they think they can hide from facts via censorship.

Which is horrible both for academic quality and sound decision making.


I believe the PRC calculated both the results of the Taiwan and Hong Kong elections and acted accordingly.

They weighed the probability of the lost elections against the costs of using military force and decided that it was better to take the limited losses so long as more gains can be made later. It's sound policy.
I believe in justice and law and order.

IM Using The Force In Combat

Reincarnation and Successor of God Kefka +~4500 posts
Art Thread (http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic ... #p19679163)

User avatar
Infected Mushroom
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 29549
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:18 am

Novus America wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
The KMT economic policy still makes more sense. Also, as I've said, embracing a Chinese identity doesn't necessarily mean immediate unification with the PRC.

There's been periods of KMT governance (democratically elected) in Taiwan, and in general, the policies made more sense.


Except as previously explained, the PRC uses its economy to establish its political goals, so the KMT economic policy is a risk to Taiwan.
Economic domination becomes political control.

And again Taiwan preserving its freedom and prosperity means NEVER united with the PRC.


Not necessarily. Cooperating with the PRC economically is not the same thing as being taken over by the PRC politically and economically.

Under previous KMT elected governments, prosperous China-Taiwan economic cooperation has happened. Taiwan has maintained a separate political and economic control.

So this is a red herring. Fact of the matter is, Taiwan's economy has suffered in the past few decades as a result of Tsai and the green party's disastrous economic policies.
I believe in justice and law and order.

IM Using The Force In Combat

Reincarnation and Successor of God Kefka +~4500 posts
Art Thread (http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic ... #p19679163)

User avatar
Novus America
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 29316
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:21 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Novus America wrote:This is interesting:
https://www.scmp.com/news/china/politic ... ai-ing-wen
A university in the PRC correctly predicted the outcome but shortly after releasing the study was forced to delete it.
Showing how far academic freedom in the PRC is dropping.

And how arrogant and ignorant the PRC leadership has become.
Apparently they think they can hide from facts via censorship.

Which is horrible both for academic quality and sound decision making.


I believe the PRC calculated both the results of the Taiwan and Hong Kong elections and acted accordingly.

They weighed the probability of the lost elections against the costs of using military force and decided that it was better to take the limited losses so long as more gains can be made later. It's sound policy.


But why try to hide it? The report that calculated the correct results was shut down and deleted.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

User avatar
Novus America
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 29316
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:25 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Novus America wrote:
Except as previously explained, the PRC uses its economy to establish its political goals, so the KMT economic policy is a risk to Taiwan.
Economic domination becomes political control.

And again Taiwan preserving its freedom and prosperity means NEVER united with the PRC.


Not necessarily. Cooperating with the PRC economically is not the same thing as being taken over by the PRC politically and economically.

Under previous KMT elected governments, prosperous China-Taiwan economic cooperation has happened. Taiwan has maintained a separate political and economic control.

So this is a red herring. Fact of the matter is, Taiwan's economy has suffered in the past few decades as a result of Tsai and the green party's disastrous economic policies.


No. “Cooperating” with the PRC is impossible be a the PRC views everything as zero sum game and tool for power. Economics is no exception.

And again you are simply wrong:
https://focustaiwan.tw/business/201912190019
Taiwan’s economy is doing fine. Besides not everything is about money anyways.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Novus America
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 29316
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:42 am

Interestingly enough Han got trashed in Kaohsiung and there is a move to recall him as mayor. Hopefully this is the end of his political career and he gets sacked as mayor too.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

User avatar
The New California Republic
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Posts: 21831
Founded: Jun 06, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:46 am

In her victory speech, Ms Tsai told China to abandon its threat to take back the island by force.

Ms Tsai told a news conference: "Taiwan is showing the world how much we cherish our free democratic way of life and how much we cherish our nation."

"Peace means that China must abandon threats of force against Taiwan," she said in the capital Taipei.

"I also hope that the Beijing authorities understand that democratic Taiwan, and our democratically elected government, will not concede to threats and intimidation."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-51077553

Fantastic. A big "fuck you" to the CPC. Beautiful, just beautiful. :)
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Pilipinas and Malaya
Diplomat
 
Posts: 687
Founded: Jun 23, 2017
New York Times Democracy

Postby Pilipinas and Malaya » Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:50 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Bombadil wrote:It's telling that the only people able to freely vote, as indicative of HK and Taiwan elections, freely vote against CCP rule.. both by near 60%.

Although it's perhaps disturbing that 35-40% vote for.

I also note how quickly celebrities, companies and other vocally express their concern for Australia fires, which is absolutely fine, but what isn't fine is their silence on China atrocities.


It demonstrates that democracy doesn’t always lead to good governance or reasonable decisions

In fact, it’s likely to act as a force of division and Balkanization


You seem to hold democracy in such low regard, it’s (true democracy) pretty much the ideal system for the CCP if they want to truly embody the ideology of socialism in the least. Gives actual power to the people.

No system will ever be perfect, you need to acknowledge that because you seem to think the CCP is infallible. It isn’t and the CCP officials are maximizing said flaws only for themselves.
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Glorious Hong Kong
Secretary
 
Posts: 38
Founded: Nov 01, 2019
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Glorious Hong Kong » Sat Jan 11, 2020 8:59 am

Congratulations to Tsai Ing-wen on her landslide victory. China failed to successfully rig the 2020 election through their fake news and CCP-affiliated network of Triads. In fact, Tsai Ing-wen actually won more votes than any other presidential candidate since democratization and the end of martial law. The Taiwanese people can now lead by example and show the Chinese people that democracy can work in China too. We also have the people of Hong Kong to show them that "One Country, Two Systems" doesn't fucking work.

Czechoslovakia and Zakarpatia wrote:
New Bremerton wrote:I'm rooting for a landslide victory for Tsai Ing-wen and the DPP. Let's show these Commies we will NOT be intimidated.

We all are rooting for Tsai, left and right. This goes to show just how the people rightfully despise the totalitarian oligarchy that is the CCP. We shouldn't get too complacent though, as the Beijing regime will do everything in its power to try to rig the election for Han and his cronies.


I consider the CCP to be a far-right neo-Nazi fascist regime that has abandoned its original far-left communist roots, so it makes sense for (most) leftists to unite with rightist conservatives to oppose the current regime. For all of my criticisms of left-wing politics in recent years and for all of our oftentimes heated disagreements, this is one thing I must give leftists credit for. I won't stop criticizing the Left in America and Europe (through my main nation New Bremerton), but it's also a fact that the Taiwanese pro-independence DPP that Tsai is a part of is considered liberal and left-wing in contrast to the traditionally right-wing conservative (and formerly far-right authoritarian fascist) KMT that desires unification with the far-right fascist CCP. While I have my criticisms of small-c communism and Marxism as an ideology, the Commies I'm giving the finger to are of the right-wing big-C variety.

As someone who was born and raised in Hong Kong and has borne witness to its steady degeneration into just another "Chinese" city over the years, I'd like to personally thank you and other leftists and self-identified liberals on this site and elsewhere who have spoken out in support of the people of Hong Kong, Taiwan, Xinjiang and liberal pro-democracy activists in China itself. I really appreciate that. We need all the support we can get to resist Chinese Communist influence in this part of the world, however small.

Infected Mushroom wrote:The greens have won.

Most unfortunately.

It's still being counted live right now but the gap is too large.

One of my friends while we were watching the votes still being counted here, said "it's time to change the result with military force to save the Republic of China."

I was like: "Unfortunately, we don't have the numbers here. If you changed the votes to soldiers as an estimate."


You have a very weird choice of friends, to put it very mildly. Most Taiwanese I can think of, including the KMT today, support democracy and the rule of law, and the same goes for most Hong Kongers. It would have been totally fine if you had simply stated your support for the KMT as many Taiwanese do, but your additional desire to destroy Taiwan (and Hong Kong) with military force to "unite" a nonexistent, irredentist, imperialist superstate, because the result of a free and fair democratic election unmarred by violence or irregularities and where the losing candidate (Han Kuo-yu) has conceded defeat, didn't go YOUR WAY, is absolutely fucking disgusting and puts you in a very tiny minority of people in Hong Kong and Taiwan who repeatedly lie and shill for a genocidal fascist regime and ignore the views and opinions of the vast majority of Hong Kongers and Taiwanese whose existence you CLEARLY refuse to acknowledge and whom you refuse to sit down, talk to and actually LISTEN to outside of your cult-like bubble of "friends" and work acquaintances, even though you fucking LIVE in Hong Kong and have visited Taiwan repeatedly as you have indicated in the HK megathreads.
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Infected Mushroom
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Posts: 29549
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:06 am

Pilipinas and Malaya wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
It demonstrates that democracy doesn’t always lead to good governance or reasonable decisions

In fact, it’s likely to act as a force of division and Balkanization


You seem to hold democracy in such low regard, it’s (true democracy) pretty much the ideal system for the CCP if they want to truly embody the ideology of socialism in the least. Gives actual power to the people.

No system will ever be perfect, you need to acknowledge that because you seem to think the CCP is infallible. It isn’t and the CCP officials are maximizing said flaws only for themselves.


I don’t like democracy. It’s messy, disorderly, unclean.

I much prefer uniforms, soldiers, clear lines of authority, order.

This is an ideological preference.

The KMT did a very good job as a single party state in industrializing this place. It’s unfortunate the people have forgotten.
Last edited by Infected Mushroom on Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
I believe in justice and law and order.

IM Using The Force In Combat

Reincarnation and Successor of God Kefka +~4500 posts
Art Thread (http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic ... #p19679163)

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Catburg
Chargé d'Affaires
 
Posts: 466
Founded: Dec 27, 2019
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Catburg » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:08 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Pilipinas and Malaya wrote:
You seem to hold democracy in such low regard, it’s (true democracy) pretty much the ideal system for the CCP if they want to truly embody the ideology of socialism in the least. Gives actual power to the people.

No system will ever be perfect, you need to acknowledge that because you seem to think the CCP is infallible. It isn’t and the CCP officials are maximizing said flaws only for themselves.


I don’t like democracy. It’s messy, disorderly, unclean.

I much prefer uniforms, soldiers, clear lines of authority, order.

This is an ideological preference.

The KMT did a very good job as a single party state in industrializing this place. It’s unfortunate the people have forgotten.


Lol.

Statism....

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Infected Mushroom
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 29549
Founded: Apr 15, 2014
Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Infected Mushroom » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:10 am

Catburg wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
I don’t like democracy. It’s messy, disorderly, unclean.

I much prefer uniforms, soldiers, clear lines of authority, order.

This is an ideological preference.

The KMT did a very good job as a single party state in industrializing this place. It’s unfortunate the people have forgotten.


Lol.

Statism....


However, if we’re operating in a democratic framework, I would prefer that the more orderly side is elected. Unfortunately, this did not happen here today.
I believe in justice and law and order.

IM Using The Force In Combat

Reincarnation and Successor of God Kefka +~4500 posts
Art Thread (http://forum.nationstates.net/viewtopic ... #p19679163)

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The New California Republic
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Posts: 21831
Founded: Jun 06, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:16 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:I don’t like democracy. It’s messy, disorderly, unclean.

Yes we know you have already on previous occasions given these strange notions of what you think democracy is.

Infected Mushroom wrote:I much prefer uniforms, soldiers, clear lines of authority, order.

This is an ideological preference.

No it isn't, as what you just listed does not constitute an ideology. :roll:

But you also like soldiers killing demonstrators, as you have shown on previous occasions.
Last edited by Karl Marx on Wed Mar 04, 1883 15:05 pm, edited 999 times in total.

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Novus America
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Posts: 29316
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:36 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Pilipinas and Malaya wrote:
You seem to hold democracy in such low regard, it’s (true democracy) pretty much the ideal system for the CCP if they want to truly embody the ideology of socialism in the least. Gives actual power to the people.

No system will ever be perfect, you need to acknowledge that because you seem to think the CCP is infallible. It isn’t and the CCP officials are maximizing said flaws only for themselves.


I don’t like democracy. It’s messy, disorderly, unclean.

I much prefer uniforms, soldiers, clear lines of authority, order.

This is an ideological preference.

The KMT did a very good job as a single party state in industrializing this place. It’s unfortunate the people have forgotten.


The irony is the PRC has some of the dirtiest cities in the world, skies choked with smog, rivers choked with trash and toxic waste in many places.
Meanwhile there is little rule of law, courts and regulatory agencies are arbitrary and corrupt, due process is non existent.

The irony is the PRC in reality is no where near your “ideal” (although it is more a pathology than any sort of ideology).

Singapore would be closest to your ideal. Clean and orderly, militaristic.
Boring and conformist.
Yet while hardly a liberal democracy it is still far more democratic and far less authoritarian than the Xi Reich.

So you are still on the wrong side.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Austria-Bohemia-Hungary
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 11592
Founded: Jun 28, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Austria-Bohemia-Hungary » Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:58 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:I much prefer uniforms, soldiers, clear lines of authority, order.

Ok Japanese Militarist.
"One Country, Two Systems" is deader than dead and a tool for Peking imperialism. And its supporters are deluding themselves with CPC agitprop.
Last edited by Austria-Bohemia-Hungary on Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:02 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Glorious Hong Kong
Secretary
 
Posts: 38
Founded: Nov 01, 2019
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Glorious Hong Kong » Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:04 am

Infected Mushroom wrote:
Catburg wrote:
Lol.

Statism....


However, if we’re operating in a democratic framework, I would prefer that the more orderly side is elected. Unfortunately, this did not happen here today.


Hong Kong was very peaceful and orderly for many years until last year when the government through the HKPF and Triad thugs cracked down on peaceful protesters and ordinary people and destabilized the city-state with their barbaric acts of violence and white terror. Hong Kong was peaceful and orderly both before and after the Handover. I felt totally safe walking the streets of Hong Kong for so many years until the police cracked down just last year. Now, I'm afraid of the police and afraid that Triad thugs will appear out of nowhere as I'm going about my daily business to physically assault me just for wearing certain clothes or saying certain things in public about the CCP. This is not "order". This is state-sanctioned terror.

Taiwan has been perfectly peaceful and orderly since and especially AFTER the end of martial law and the transition to democracy, and Taiwan under the DPP has been just as peaceful, orderly and prosperous as it has been under the KMT. People have not been mass-murdered, executed and massacred, even in their own homes that were supposed to be under armed protection where victims as young as seven years old were stabbed to death, for expressing certain opinions about the KMT or Taiwanese independence since 1987. A military invasion of Taiwan by China to "correct" the result of a democratic vote would result in tremendous bloodshed and loss of life. Personal risk to life and limb would be greatly amplified by the presence of PLA troops in the streets of Taipei and Kaohsiung gunning down anything that moves, as it was under the Kuomintang in the late 1940s. This is not "order". This is state-induced chaos, terror, mass-murder and tyranny.

But that's exactly what you want. You want to see a Nazi-style regime where goose-stepping SS officers turn heads to salute their Dear Fuhrer in all His Paternal Glory and ordinary people are forced to literally walk, talk, dress and act a certain way at a certain time at a certain place every single day for the rest of their lives while they are monitored by their phones, tablets, laptops, TVs, household appliances and pretty much every object around them to ensure absolute compliance and total devotion and adoration like the mindless automatons they were supposed to be in the eyes of the Party. This is not "order". This is slavery. Any sane person would be rapidly driven insane under such a regime.

We are not savage animals to be periodically fed and paraded around for entertainment. We are not inanimate clockwork to be yelled at, "repaired" or callously disposed of whenever something goes wrong. We are intelligent, human fucking beings with individually distinct memories, feelings and personalities.
The Armed Republic of Glorious Hong Kong
Region: The North Pacific

"Liberate Hong Kong. Revolution of our Times."

OOC: Puppet of New Bremerton

User avatar
Novus America
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 29316
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:04 am

Meet the true co-presidents of China. :p
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Think_Think_and_Ah_Tsai
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

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Glorious Hong Kong
Secretary
 
Posts: 38
Founded: Nov 01, 2019
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Glorious Hong Kong » Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:16 am

Novus America wrote:
Infected Mushroom wrote:
I don’t like democracy. It’s messy, disorderly, unclean.

I much prefer uniforms, soldiers, clear lines of authority, order.

This is an ideological preference.

The KMT did a very good job as a single party state in industrializing this place. It’s unfortunate the people have forgotten.


The irony is the PRC has some of the dirtiest cities in the world, skies choked with smog, rivers choked with trash and toxic waste in many places.
Meanwhile there is little rule of law, courts and regulatory agencies are arbitrary and corrupt, due process is non existent.

The irony is the PRC in reality is no where near your “ideal” (although it is more a pathology than any sort of ideology).

Singapore would be closest to your ideal. Clean and orderly, militaristic.
Boring and conformist.
Yet while hardly a liberal democracy it is still far more democratic and far less authoritarian than the Xi Reich.

So you are still on the wrong side.


Last time I was in China, and I don't intend to visit China again until the CCP is overthrown, the streets were filthy, people talked loudly and even the young people in Shanghai casually spit on the street, and people forced their way onto train carriages despite the totalitarian state apparatus. The country is a totalitarian, Dickensian dystopia where the rich fuck the poor with complete and total impunity and anyone who challenges the status quo is summarily dealt with like the clearly defective automaton that must be destroyed to purify the assembly line. Taiwan, by contrast, is much cleaner and far more developed and orderly despite the much higher degree of civil rights and political freedoms.

Even the UK where I studied feels much cleaner and more orderly compared to China, and Britain is an archetypal parliamentary democracy.
The Armed Republic of Glorious Hong Kong
Region: The North Pacific

"Liberate Hong Kong. Revolution of our Times."

OOC: Puppet of New Bremerton

User avatar
Glorious Hong Kong
Secretary
 
Posts: 38
Founded: Nov 01, 2019
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Glorious Hong Kong » Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:19 am

Why do Taiwanese presidents have such funny names? Horse English Nine lost to English Language in 2016, and her 2020 challenger has a name that sounds like Han Chinese Language.
The Armed Republic of Glorious Hong Kong
Region: The North Pacific

"Liberate Hong Kong. Revolution of our Times."

OOC: Puppet of New Bremerton

User avatar
Novus America
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 29316
Founded: Jun 02, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Novus America » Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:25 am

Glorious Hong Kong wrote:
Novus America wrote:
The irony is the PRC has some of the dirtiest cities in the world, skies choked with smog, rivers choked with trash and toxic waste in many places.
Meanwhile there is little rule of law, courts and regulatory agencies are arbitrary and corrupt, due process is non existent.

The irony is the PRC in reality is no where near your “ideal” (although it is more a pathology than any sort of ideology).

Singapore would be closest to your ideal. Clean and orderly, militaristic.
Boring and conformist.
Yet while hardly a liberal democracy it is still far more democratic and far less authoritarian than the Xi Reich.

So you are still on the wrong side.


Last time I was in China, and I don't intend to visit China again until the CCP is overthrown, the streets were filthy, people talked loudly and even the young people in Shanghai casually spit on the street, and people forced their way onto train carriages despite the totalitarian state apparatus. The country is a totalitarian, Dickensian dystopia where the rich fuck the poor with complete and total impunity and anyone who challenges the status quo is summarily dealt with like the clearly defective automaton that must be destroyed to purify the assembly line. Taiwan, by contrast, is much cleaner and far more developed and orderly despite the much higher degree of civil rights and political freedoms.

Even the UK where I studied feels much cleaner and more orderly compared to China, and Britain is an archetypal parliamentary democracy.


That is the irony. The most totalitarian regimes are not actually the most clean and orderly.
And Xi’s Dickensian dystopia as you so eloquently put it certainly does not fit the bill.

I have never been to the mainland PRC (and never will go there) but my family who have been say the same thing. That Japan for example is far more clean and ordered. But Japan is a parliamentary democracy as well.
Last edited by Novus America on Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
___|_|___ _|__*__|_

Zombie Ike/Teddy Roosevelt 2020.

Novus America represents my vision of an awesome Atompunk near future United States of America expanded to the entire North American continent, Guyana and the Philippines. The population would be around 700 million.
Think something like prewar Fallout, minus the bad stuff.

Politically I am an independent. Pragmatism is my ideology.

User avatar
Gormwood
Powerbroker
 
Posts: 8760
Founded: Mar 25, 2019
New York Times Democracy

Postby Gormwood » Sat Jan 11, 2020 10:28 am

Looks like China just got a huge Fuck Off.

In Blow to Beijing, Taiwan Re-elects Tsai Ing-wen as President

Cue diatribes from CCP sympathizers.
Bloodthirsty savages who call for violence against the Right while simultaneously being unarmed defenseless sissies who will get slaughtered by the gun-toting Right in a civil war.
Breath So Bad, It Actually Drives People Mad

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