NATION

PASSWORD

Christian Discussion Thread XI: Anicetus’ Revenge

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

Advertisement

Remove ads

What is your denomination?

Roman Catholic
238
38%
Eastern Orthodox
45
7%
Non-Chalcedonian (Oriental Orthodox, Church of the East, etc.)
5
1%
Anglican/Episcopalian
32
5%
Lutheran or Reformed (including Calvinist, Presbyterian, etc.)
70
11%
Methodist
14
2%
Baptist
60
9%
Other Evangelical Protestant (Pentecostal, Charismatic, etc.)
52
8%
Restorationist (LDS Movement, Jehovah's Witness, etc.)
28
4%
Other Christian
88
14%
 
Total votes : 632

User avatar
The Archregimancy
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 26659
Founded: Aug 01, 2005
Democratic Socialists

Postby The Archregimancy » Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:33 pm

Sundiata wrote:

This trip is going to have an impact that lasts for generations.


Writing as someone who's lived and worked in the Middle East, I very much doubt the significant impact will last weeks, never mind generations.

No doubt it's a nice morale boost for the Chaldean Catholics, and it will temporarily bring attention to the plight of Christian minorities in the Middle East, which is always welcome. But on a practical level it'll do virtually nothing to improve the remnants of the Church of the East, the Syriac Oriental Orthodox, Melkite Eastern Orthodox, or Armenians who also have a presence in the country; and even for the Chaldean Catholics, I sincerely doubt there'll be much long-term benefit beyond the temporary short-term morale boost and media attention.

No doubt Catholics in the rest of the world will feel pleased with themselves for a week or two, but the long-term demographic decline of Iraq's historical Christian communities will go on unabated.

And the Mandaeans and Yazidis? Well, they're not even Christian, so who's going to notice.



Old Tyrannia wrote:I will admit that I didn't know previously that the largest Christian church in Iraq was in communion with Rome until I looked it up just now


Only because the Catholic Church was up to its usual divide and conquer shenanigans in the Middle East and - more through the luck of internecine internal Assyrian politicking than actual goodwill towards Eastern Christians - for once ended up on the winning side. The Chaldean Catholics and Church of the East used to be one and the same church, until a series of difficult to track or explain schisms from the early modern period onwards led to some of the patriarchal lines deciding that attempting to gain recognition for their position from Rome would bolster their position against their erstwhile co-religionists. This Catholic-supported strife played a significant role in the catastrophic weakening of the Church of the East's position in what later became Iraq.

The history is particularly complex, but there has been one deeply ironic outcome: what's now the majority pro-Rome Chaldean Catholic Church is mainly formed out of what was, until the early 19th century, the traditionalist line that refused union with Rome, while what's now the minority traditionalist Assyrian Church of the East is mainly formed out of what was, until the same period, the pro-Catholic unity line (though there are so many schisms and counter-schisms that it's very difficult to keep track).
Last edited by The Archregimancy on Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Salus Maior
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22638
Founded: Jun 16, 2014
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Salus Maior » Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:34 pm

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Yes, which I personally consider heretical.


I mean, it's not heresy if its a completely different religion. There's a different term for that.
Traditionalist Catholic, Constitutional Monarchist, Habsburg Nostalgic, Distributist.

”I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.”- Faramir, The Two Towers

“No one in the world can change Truth. What we can do and should do is to seek truth and to serve it when we have found it. The real conflict is the inner conflict. Beyond armies of occupation and the hecatombs of extermination camps, there are two irreconcilable enemies in the depth of every soul: good and evil, sin and love. And what use are the victories on the battlefield if we ourselves are defeated in our innermost personal selves?”
~ St. Maximilian Kolbe

User avatar
The Archregimancy
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 26659
Founded: Aug 01, 2005
Democratic Socialists

Postby The Archregimancy » Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:39 pm

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:What do you guys think regarding Rastafarianism and Ghost Dance? Valid in their beliefs, totally heretical, not even worthy of serious consideration or debate? I'd post links but I can't figure out how to copy-paste on my phone so just look them up on Wikipedia if you aren't already familiar with them.


Both are mildly interesting historically; Rastafarianism is also interesting culturally given its impact on 20th century Western popular music.

Neither is of any particular relevance to modern Christianity though the tension between the role of Haile Selaisse within Rasta beliefs and Haile Selassie's own status as head of state of an [Oriental] Orthodox country in communion with the Coptic Patriarch of Alexandria is of passing interest. Rastafarianism will likely survive longer if only because the Ghost Dance had the fundamental and hard to avoid flaw of not protecting its adherents from US military bullets.
Last edited by The Archregimancy on Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Suriyanakhon
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1231
Founded: Apr 27, 2020
Democratic Socialists

Postby Suriyanakhon » Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:39 pm

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Suriyanakhon wrote:
Not a Christian, but I find them to be really interesting examples of new religious movements which developed out of a cultural melting pot.


I mean you could argue Christianity itself was born out of a cultural melting pot lol.


All religion are really, but I meant out of modern cultures instead of ancient Mediterranean ones. :p
Liblefter & Theravada Buddhist
dO yOu LiStEn tO gIrL iN rEd
Johann von Goethe wrote:The God-head is effective in the living and not in the dead, in the becoming and the changing, not in the become and the set-fast; and therefore, similarly the intuition is concerned only to strive towards the divine through the becoming and the living, and logic only to make use of the become and the set-fast.
Resident drowned Victorian waif

User avatar
Trollzyn the Infinite
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5421
Founded: Aug 22, 2018
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:43 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Yes, which I personally consider heretical.


I mean, it's not heresy if its a completely different religion. There's a different term for that.


Well, according to the definition of "heresy" technically Islam can be considered heretical from a Christian perspective as it attempts to assert it's legitimacy by claiming Muhammad was the Arabian prophet Jesus predicted.

Suriyanakhon wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
I mean you could argue Christianity itself was born out of a cultural melting pot lol.


All religion are really, but I meant out of modern cultures instead of ancient Mediterranean ones. :p


Well Zoroastrianism had an influence on Christianity and Persia isn't Mediterranean so nyeh. :p
☆ American Patriot ☆ Civic Nationalist ☆ Rocker & Metalhead ☆ Heretical Christian ☆
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right."

Reminder that Donald J. Trump is officially a traitor to the United States of America as of January 6th, 2021
The Paradox of Tolerance
永远不会忘记1989年6月4日天安门广场大屠杀
Ես Արցախի կողքին եմ
Wanted Fugitive of the Chinese Communist Party
Unapologetic stan for Lana Beniko - Best Sith Waifu

User avatar
Punished UMN
Minister
 
Posts: 3441
Founded: Jul 05, 2020
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Punished UMN » Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:45 pm

The Archregimancy wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:What do you guys think regarding Rastafarianism and Ghost Dance? Valid in their beliefs, totally heretical, not even worthy of serious consideration or debate? I'd post links but I can't figure out how to copy-paste on my phone so just look them up on Wikipedia if you aren't already familiar with them.


Both are mildly interesting historically; Rastafarianism is also interesting culturally given its impact on 20th century Western popular music.

Neither is of any particular relevance to modern Christianity though the tension between the role of Haile Selaisse within Rasta beliefs and Haile Selassie's own status as head of state of an [Oriental] Orthodox country in communion with the Coptic Patriarch of Alexandria is of passing interest. Rastafarianism will likely survive longer if only because the Ghost Dance had the fundamental and hard to avoid flaw of not protecting its adherents from US military bullets.

To be fair, Reformed Ghost Dance theologians could argue that it only provides bulletproofing for the Elect.
Eastern Orthodox Christian. Prudish. Low-key bisexual. Purgatorial universalist.
Ascended beyond politics, now metapolitics is my best friend. Absolute pacifist. Proud member of the Napoleon Bonaparte fandom.
I have borderline personality disorder, if I overreact to something, try to approach me after the fact and I'll apologize.
The political compass is like hell: if you find yourself on in it, keep going.
Pro: The fundamental dignitas of the human spirit as expressed through its self-actualization in theosis. Anti: Faustian-Demonic Space Anarcho-Capitalism with Italo-Futurist Characteristics

User avatar
Suriyanakhon
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1231
Founded: Apr 27, 2020
Democratic Socialists

Postby Suriyanakhon » Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:48 pm

Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
I mean, it's not heresy if its a completely different religion. There's a different term for that.


Well, according to the definition of "heresy" technically Islam can be considered heretical from a Christian perspective as it attempts to assert it's legitimacy by claiming Muhammad was the Arabian prophet Jesus predicted.


Historically, if memory serves, Islam was seen as a form of Arianism rather than a separate religion, which meant Muhammad was seen more as an arch-heretic rather than a simple non-believer in the medieval period.
Liblefter & Theravada Buddhist
dO yOu LiStEn tO gIrL iN rEd
Johann von Goethe wrote:The God-head is effective in the living and not in the dead, in the becoming and the changing, not in the become and the set-fast; and therefore, similarly the intuition is concerned only to strive towards the divine through the becoming and the living, and logic only to make use of the become and the set-fast.
Resident drowned Victorian waif

User avatar
Trollzyn the Infinite
Negotiator
 
Posts: 5421
Founded: Aug 22, 2018
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Trollzyn the Infinite » Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:50 pm

Suriyanakhon wrote:
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote:
Well, according to the definition of "heresy" technically Islam can be considered heretical from a Christian perspective as it attempts to assert it's legitimacy by claiming Muhammad was the Arabian prophet Jesus predicted.


Historically, if memory serves, Islam was seen as a form of Arianism rather than a separate religion, which meant Muhammad was seen more as an arch-heretic rather than a simple non-believer in the medieval period.


I believe you're correct. I think that view shifted by the time of the Crusades, though.
Last edited by Trollzyn the Infinite on Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
☆ American Patriot ☆ Civic Nationalist ☆ Rocker & Metalhead ☆ Heretical Christian ☆
"My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right."

Reminder that Donald J. Trump is officially a traitor to the United States of America as of January 6th, 2021
The Paradox of Tolerance
永远不会忘记1989年6月4日天安门广场大屠杀
Ես Արցախի կողքին եմ
Wanted Fugitive of the Chinese Communist Party
Unapologetic stan for Lana Beniko - Best Sith Waifu

User avatar
Nakena
Postmaster-General
 
Posts: 14228
Founded: May 06, 2017
Left-Leaning College State

Postby Nakena » Fri Mar 05, 2021 2:58 pm

The Archregimancy wrote:No doubt Catholics in the rest of the world will feel pleased with themselves for a week or two, but the long-term demographic decline of Iraq's historical Christian communities will go on unabated.


How much (or less) have the aftermath and turmoil of the Iraq War and the Syrian Civil War contributed to the decline?
Last edited by Nakena on Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:00 pm, edited 1 time in total.
【NAZBOL GANG】

User avatar
Salus Maior
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22638
Founded: Jun 16, 2014
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Salus Maior » Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:00 pm

Nakena wrote:
The Archregimancy wrote:No doubt Catholics in the rest of the world will feel pleased with themselves for a week or two, but the long-term demographic decline of Iraq's historical Christian communities will go on unabated.


How much (or less) have the unrest and chaos after the 2003 Iraq War and the Syrian Civil War contributed to the decline?


Basically all of it.
Traditionalist Catholic, Constitutional Monarchist, Habsburg Nostalgic, Distributist.

”I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.”- Faramir, The Two Towers

“No one in the world can change Truth. What we can do and should do is to seek truth and to serve it when we have found it. The real conflict is the inner conflict. Beyond armies of occupation and the hecatombs of extermination camps, there are two irreconcilable enemies in the depth of every soul: good and evil, sin and love. And what use are the victories on the battlefield if we ourselves are defeated in our innermost personal selves?”
~ St. Maximilian Kolbe

User avatar
The New California Republic
Post Czar
 
Posts: 33778
Founded: Jun 06, 2011
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby The New California Republic » Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:02 pm

Nakena wrote:
The Archregimancy wrote:No doubt Catholics in the rest of the world will feel pleased with themselves for a week or two, but the long-term demographic decline of Iraq's historical Christian communities will go on unabated.


How much (or less) have the unrest and chaos after the 2003 Iraq War and the Syrian Civil War contributed to the decline?

According to Wikipedia anyway there is a drop in numbers by about a million, which could easily be attributed to them fleeing the mayhem:

In Iraq, Christians numbered about 1,500,000 in 2003, representing just over 6% of the population of 26 million (from 1.4 million or 8.5% of 16.5 million in 1987; and down from 12% in 1948 in a population of 4.8 million). Since then, it has been estimated that the number of Christians in Iraq have dropped to 500,000+. However, due to a lack of an official census, the number is difficult to estimate.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian ... mographics
Last edited by Sigmund Freud on Sat Sep 23, 1939 2:23 am, edited 999 times in total.

The Irradiated Wasteland of The New California Republic: depicting the expanded NCR, several years after the total victory over Caesar's Legion, and the annexation of New Vegas and its surrounding areas.

White-collared conservatives flashing down the street
Pointing their plastic finger at me
They're hoping soon, my kind will drop and die
But I'm going to wave my freak flag high
Wave on, wave on
||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||||

User avatar
Salus Maior
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22638
Founded: Jun 16, 2014
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Salus Maior » Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:06 pm

The Archregimancy wrote:
And the Mandaeans and Yazidis? Well, they're not even Christian, so who's going to notice.


Mandaeans are mostly in the southern part of Iraq, as I understand it.

Other reasons for decline aside, they wouldn’t have been as hit hard by ISIS as the Yazidis and Christians were.

That being said, I know a lot more about the Yazidis and Christians than the Mandaeans.
Last edited by Salus Maior on Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Traditionalist Catholic, Constitutional Monarchist, Habsburg Nostalgic, Distributist.

”I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.”- Faramir, The Two Towers

“No one in the world can change Truth. What we can do and should do is to seek truth and to serve it when we have found it. The real conflict is the inner conflict. Beyond armies of occupation and the hecatombs of extermination camps, there are two irreconcilable enemies in the depth of every soul: good and evil, sin and love. And what use are the victories on the battlefield if we ourselves are defeated in our innermost personal selves?”
~ St. Maximilian Kolbe

User avatar
Lost Memories
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1935
Founded: Nov 29, 2012
Democratic Socialists

Postby Lost Memories » Fri Mar 05, 2021 3:36 pm

The Archregimancy wrote:
Sundiata wrote:This trip is going to have an impact that lasts for generations.


Writing as someone who's lived and worked in the Middle East, I very much doubt the significant impact will last weeks, never mind generations.

No doubt it's a nice morale boost for the Chaldean Catholics, and it will temporarily bring attention to the plight of Christian minorities in the Middle East, which is always welcome. But on a practical level it'll do virtually nothing to improve the remnants of the Church of the East, the Syriac Oriental Orthodox, Melkite Eastern Orthodox, or Armenians who also have a presence in the country; and even for the Chaldean Catholics, I sincerely doubt there'll be much long-term benefit beyond the temporary short-term morale boost and media attention.

You and Tyrannia are like thinking this papal visit in Iraq is only about saying "hi" to the christians there, and then leave. (only catholic christians btw, clearly)
It's not only that.

It's also about continuing the collaborative initiatives with the various islamic groups:
Pope to meet top Shia leader Sistani on Iraq visit
Pope Francis is set to be in Iraq from March 5-8, with visits planned to Baghdad, the northern city of Mosul, and Ur.

Pope Francis will meet top Shia religious leader Grand Ayatollah Ali al-Sistani during the first-ever papal visit to Iraq in March, a senior Catholic cleric told the AFP news agency on Thursday.

Louis Sako, the patriarch of Iraq’s Chaldean Catholic Church, said it would be a “private visit” between the two religious figures “without formalities”.

Sako said he hoped the two figures would sign the document on “human fraternity for world peace”, an interreligious text condemning “extremism” that Pope Francis signed with the leading Sunni scholar, the grand imam of Al-Azhar, Sheikh Ahmed al-Tayeb, in 2019.
No process ever starts, if no steps are attempted, as little as those steps may be.


And on a purely secular point of view, it's a great opportunity for Iraq to open up to the world, and correct a tarnished image it has gained in the past decades.
Like, most people, some in this same thread, when they hear "Iraq", their reactions is something like "a terrifying place to be, lower than third world (in some scale made up in the west), I would get bombed while walking in the streets"
It is an huge advertising event for the whole Iraq.

The authorities of no christian origin or affiliation, are clearly using the visit of the pope for that.
Pope to visit ancient city of Ur, ‘the cradle of civilization’
Welcome ceremony to the pope, with dances, songs, orchestras and swords. (dances and songs at 17:35)

It's interesting to note that while on aljazeera international(english) the news about the papal visit is at the top, on aljazeera arabic, there is no trace of it.
https://www.aljazeera.com/ (english)
https://www.aljazeera.net/ (arabic)
Just to make it more clear. Which, them getting some positive international visibility, so long they can follow up on it, isn't something to discard either.

I'm hesitant to repeat what Sundiata said, but I wouldn't write it off either. There are at least 3 sides, over which the visit of the pope in Iraq could bring some improvement:
-for christians
-for the relationship between muslims and christians
-for the whole people living in Iraq
http://www.politicaltest.net/test/result/222881/

hmag

pagan american empireLiberalism is a LieWhat is Hell

"The whole is something else than the sum of its parts" -Kurt Koffka

A fox tried to reach some grapes hanging high on the vine, but was unable to.
As he went away, the fox remarked 'Oh, you aren't even ripe yet!'
As such are people who speak disparagingly of things that they cannot attain.
-The Fox and the Grapes

"Dictionaries don't decide what words mean. Prescriptivism is the ultimate form of elitism." -United Muscovite Nations
or subtle illiteracy, or lazy sidetracking. Just fucking follow the context. And ask when in doubt.

Not-asimov

We're all a bit stupid and ignorant, just be humble about it.

User avatar
Luminesa
Khan of Spam
 
Posts: 57240
Founded: Dec 09, 2014
Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Luminesa » Fri Mar 05, 2021 4:46 pm

The Archregimancy wrote:
Sundiata wrote:This trip is going to have an impact that lasts for generations.


Writing as someone who's lived and worked in the Middle East, I very much doubt the significant impact will last weeks, never mind generations.

No doubt it's a nice morale boost for the Chaldean Catholics, and it will temporarily bring attention to the plight of Christian minorities in the Middle East, which is always welcome. But on a practical level it'll do virtually nothing to improve the remnants of the Church of the East, the Syriac Oriental Orthodox, Melkite Eastern Orthodox, or Armenians who also have a presence in the country; and even for the Chaldean Catholics, I sincerely doubt there'll be much long-term benefit beyond the temporary short-term morale boost and media attention.

No doubt Catholics in the rest of the world will feel pleased with themselves for a week or two, but the long-term demographic decline of Iraq's historical Christian communities will go on unabated.

And the Mandaeans and Yazidis? Well, they're not even Christian, so who's going to notice.



Old Tyrannia wrote:I will admit that I didn't know previously that the largest Christian church in Iraq was in communion with Rome until I looked it up just now


Only because the Catholic Church was up to its usual divide and conquer shenanigans in the Middle East and - more through the luck of internecine internal Assyrian politicking than actual goodwill towards Eastern Christians - for once ended up on the winning side. The Chaldean Catholics and Church of the East used to be one and the same church, until a series of difficult to track or explain schisms from the early modern period onwards led to some of the patriarchal lines deciding that attempting to gain recognition for their position from Rome would bolster their position against their erstwhile co-religionists. This Catholic-supported strife played a significant role in the catastrophic weakening of the Church of the East's position in what later became Iraq.

The history is particularly complex, but there has been one deeply ironic outcome: what's now the majority pro-Rome Chaldean Catholic Church is mainly formed out of what was, until the early 19th century, the traditionalist line that refused union with Rome, while what's now the minority traditionalist Assyrian Church of the East is mainly formed out of what was, until the same period, the pro-Catholic unity line (though there are so many schisms and counter-schisms that it's very difficult to keep track).

I would be very glad if Pope Francis COULD start something. But it is, admittedly, a complicated situation. I'm not sure if I feel happy with myself-I don't think I'd have the guts to go to Iraq.
Catholic, pro-life, and proud of it. I prefer my debates on religion, politics, and sports with some coffee and a little Aquinas and G.K. CHESTERTON here and there. :3
Unofficial #1 fan of the Who Dat Nation.
"I'm just a singer of simple songs, I'm not a real political man. I watch CNN, but I'm not sure I can tell you the difference in Iraq and Iran. But I know Jesus, and I talk to God, and I remember this from when I was young:
faith, hope and love are some good things He gave us...
and the greatest is love."
-Alan Jackson
King Alfred's Prayer
Help bring home First Nation girls! Now with more ways to help!
Be safe, wear your mask outside the home, pray for peace, mercy, and justice to reign in our world. God bless you!

User avatar
Sundiata
Negotiator
 
Posts: 7103
Founded: Sep 27, 2019
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Sundiata » Sat Mar 06, 2021 3:04 am

Pope Francis is a hero.
Gender: Male
Religion: Catholic (Opus Dei)
Politics: Solidarity (Catholic Social Teaching)
Economics: Rerum Novarum (The Encyclical)
Alignment: Lawful Good

"Don't say, 'That person bothers me.' Think: 'That person sanctifies me.'"
-St. Josemaria Escriva (Founder of Opus Dei)

User avatar
The Blaatschapen
Retired Moderator
 
Posts: 58696
Founded: Antiquity
Anarchy

Postby The Blaatschapen » Sat Mar 06, 2021 3:17 am

I sincerely hope that the Pope's visit to Iraq does more good than harm. Especially for Iraq's (ir)religious minorities.
Forumer mod, now a rocker mocker. Thank you Ringo
Five blank lines will now follow





This is the 8th line. If your sig is longer than mine, it is too long.

User avatar
The Archregimancy
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 26659
Founded: Aug 01, 2005
Democratic Socialists

Postby The Archregimancy » Sat Mar 06, 2021 3:30 am

Salus Maior wrote:
The Archregimancy wrote:
And the Mandaeans and Yazidis? Well, they're not even Christian, so who's going to notice.


Mandaeans are mostly in the southern part of Iraq, as I understand it.

Other reasons for decline aside, they wouldn’t have been as hit hard by ISIS as the Yazidis and Christians were.

That being said, I know a lot more about the Yazidis and Christians than the Mandaeans.



Mandaeans are absolutely fascinating, and it's a shame that they're not better known in Christianity - though since they're traditionally a very closed and private group, they don't really invite outside interest. They seem to be the last modern remnant of pre-medieval gnosticism, and while this next point is ultimately unprovable, there's a decent possibility that they're the last remnants of the followers of John the Baptist who rejected the teachings of Jesus of Nazareth. Historically they've stressed their connections to John the Baptist and John's status as a final prophet, have an origin story that has them leaving Palestine in the first century AD following persecutions, they stress ongoing ritual baptism in flowing water, and all of their baptismal waters are ritually called 'Jordan'. However, somewhere along the way they seem to have picked up a lot of dualistic gnostic cosmology, so it's likely that - on some level - they're a syncretic merger of followers of John the Baptist and 1st-century AD Middle Eastern gnosticism.

Unfortunately, they're facing extinction in their ancestral Iraqi homeland in the wake of the 2003 invasion of Iraq. It has very little to do with ISIS, but rather results from them being an easy target for competing Sunni and Shia extremist groups in the chronic post-war instability - and their traditional cultural status as goldsmiths also made them an easy target for kidnappers seeking ransoms. Up to 90% of Iraq's pre-war Mandaean population of 60-70,000 has fled the country (or been killed), with most now loving as refugees in Jordan and Syria (out of the frying pan...), though there's also a small historical population in Iran.

There are also small émigré communities in the West, notably in Sweden and Australia. This short English-language video from their Australian cultural support group may be of interest (though it's slightly disorienting to hear Mandaeans speak with Australian accents).



Salus Maior wrote:
Nakena wrote:
How much (or less) have the unrest and chaos after the 2003 Iraq War and the Syrian Civil War contributed to the decline?


Basically all of it.


Not really; only the most immediate demographic decline. The recent catastrophic decline of possibly up to two thirds of the Christian population is a direct consequence of the 2003 war and the consequent destabilisation of the broader region, but the longer-term decline is an ongoing process that dates back much earlier, and the initial catalysts were the Crusades and Mongol invasions. Immediately before the Crusades, the Church of the East had over 60 dioceses in the Middle East (and many much further afield as far as China, but it's the Mesopotamian context that we're focusing on here). By the time Timur had had his way with the region, there were only seven.

The Church of the East's last great chance was the Mongol conquest of Mesopotamia. Hulagu Khan, grandson of Genghis, brother of Kublai, and founder of the Ilkhanate khanate that came to rule much of Persia and Mesopotamia, was the son of the Nestorian princess Sorghaghtani Beki. Because of his mother, Hulagu was very well-disposed to the Church of the East. Prior to the Mongol sack of Baghdad The Church had also had a very high cultural status within the Abbasid Caliphate, providing the Caliph's personal doctors, and playing a key role in translating and transmitting Greek and Roman science and philosophy to the Islamic Middle East; they were arguably the key catalyst in the Islamic Golden Age. For a a few decades so the Church of the East, the remnants of the Crusader States, and the partially restored Byzantine Empire had some hope that a new Christian power would arise in Mesopotamia, and reverse the Muslim conquests of the region; and while Islam was by this point likely the majority religion across the region as a whole, the balance was much closer than it is today; much as it proved in Spain, the demographics were potentially reversible.

It wasn't to be. Hulagu, who died in 1265, remained a shamanist, and his heir Abaqa and grandson Arghun both Buddhists, though strong Nestorian family connections meant the Church of the east was still stable. But after Arghun's death in 1291, the Ilkhanate started to disintegrate. Arghun's son Ghazan, who came to the throne in 1295, had been raised a Christian - but converted to Islam in order to attract support from the Persian nobility in his attempt to depose his cousin Baydu. From that point on, the Ilkhans were staunch supporters of Islam. The resulting oppression of non-Muslim religious traditions in Mesopotamia and Persia, combined with the regional instability brought about by the collapse of a united Mongol Empire - which cut off Nestorian access to their eastern dioceses at the same time that these were coming under increased intolerance and pressure - began the long, slow, great decline of the Church of the East that continues into the present - and which the current Papal visit will do nothing to arrest, no matter how well-intentioned it undoubtedly is.

But that brief period between the 1258 conquest of Baghdad and Ghazan's 1295 conversion to Christianity is one of the great 'what ifs' of history; the Mongols came within a whisker of establishing a Nestorian-led state across the cultural core of the Middle East.
Last edited by The Archregimancy on Sat Mar 06, 2021 3:36 am, edited 2 times in total.

User avatar
Kowani
Post Czar
 
Posts: 36679
Founded: Apr 01, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Kowani » Sat Mar 06, 2021 3:34 am

Sex is great. But have you tried data visualizations of partisan spatial segregation?
The National Debt is not debt, but merely the sum total, to the penny, of every untaxed dollar in existence since the start of the nation.
Kowáni's big list of sources, Be Kowáni for a day!
Headline of the day: Closing Arguments in the Trial of Derek Chauvin
“Dale limona, mujer, que no hay en la vida ná, como la pena de ser, ciego en Graná”
the white man still cries when you cut down the lynching trees

User avatar
The Archregimancy
Game Moderator
 
Posts: 26659
Founded: Aug 01, 2005
Democratic Socialists

Postby The Archregimancy » Sat Mar 06, 2021 3:38 am

Sundiata wrote:Pope Francis is a hero.


I don't doubt that he means well, and I don't doubt that he's a good man at heart; and he certainly seems to be an improvement over his two immediate predecessors when it comes to addressing the corrosive internal institutional issues that have damaged Catholicism's moral authority in recent decades.

But I think one would need to be a Roman Catholic - which you of course are, so fair enough - to consider him a hero.

User avatar
Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1262
Founded: Sep 24, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum » Sat Mar 06, 2021 3:49 am

It should be a lesson for secular people. People who use religion unite in theocracy and become the enemy of secularism. Secularism is a value that must be protected all over the world. this meeting really made me uncomfortable.
Image
Sosyal Demokrat Kemalist
Zayıf Agnostik
LGBT Destekçisi
Türk %75,1 ☾☆
Slav % 20,4
Hintli %1,35
Çinli %1

User avatar
The Blaatschapen
Retired Moderator
 
Posts: 58696
Founded: Antiquity
Anarchy

Postby The Blaatschapen » Sat Mar 06, 2021 4:27 am

Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:It should be a lesson for secular people. People who use religion unite in theocracy and become the enemy of secularism. Secularism is a value that must be protected all over the world. this meeting really made me uncomfortable.


Inter-faith dialogue might help with getting secularism. If no religion is dominant in one place, they kind of need to go to secularism lest one of the religions gets oppressed. Better to have equality and peace at the cost of not always having a government mandated holiday for every single special day of one's faith.

The again, even France, one of the more stringent secular states out there still has christmas as a national holiday.

I'm fairly practical when it comes to these matters. I have my disagreements with the pope, but I do see progress from him compared to previous ones. Especially the last one. The one before (John Paul II) was a mixed bag, somewhat decent for the issues of the 1980s, less so afterwards.
Forumer mod, now a rocker mocker. Thank you Ringo
Five blank lines will now follow





This is the 8th line. If your sig is longer than mine, it is too long.

User avatar
Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum
Ambassador
 
Posts: 1262
Founded: Sep 24, 2018
Democratic Socialists

Postby Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum » Sat Mar 06, 2021 4:39 am

The Blaatschapen wrote:
Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:It should be a lesson for secular people. People who use religion unite in theocracy and become the enemy of secularism. Secularism is a value that must be protected all over the world. this meeting really made me uncomfortable.


Inter-faith dialogue might help with getting secularism. If no religion is dominant in one place, they kind of need to go to secularism lest one of the religions gets oppressed. Better to have equality and peace at the cost of not always having a government mandated holiday for every single special day of one's faith.

The again, even France, one of the more stringent secular states out there still has christmas as a national holiday.

I'm fairly practical when it comes to these matters. I have my disagreements with the pope, but I do see progress from him compared to previous ones. Especially the last one. The one before (John Paul II) was a mixed bag, somewhat decent for the issues of the 1980s, less so afterwards.
I'm not against it, but I really know what their mentality is. They don't hesitate to be an alliance in homophobia and anti-porn. Secularists must be aware that this will turn to hostile actions against our free will. My dream is to create a secular formation like the Socialist International.
Sosyal Demokrat Kemalist
Zayıf Agnostik
LGBT Destekçisi
Türk %75,1 ☾☆
Slav % 20,4
Hintli %1,35
Çinli %1

User avatar
Old Tyrannia
Retired Moderator
 
Posts: 15902
Founded: Aug 11, 2009
Father Knows Best State

Postby Old Tyrannia » Sat Mar 06, 2021 6:01 am

Sundiata wrote:Pope Francis is a hero.

Well, I don't believe Pope Francis has ever played down the Holocaust or praised a fascist dictator, so at least he's a step up from the last person you proclaimed to be a hero in this thread even if you can't produce a coherent argument to support your statement.
Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:It should be a lesson for secular people. People who use religion unite in theocracy and become the enemy of secularism. Secularism is a value that must be protected all over the world. this meeting really made me uncomfortable.

Those villainous religious extremists and their... *checks notes* peaceful interfaith dialogues!
Whisky-loving Anglican monarchist and one time moderator.
"It is spiritless to think that you cannot attain to that which you have seen and heard the masters attain. The masters are men. You are also a man. If you think that you will be inferior in doing something, you will be on that road very soon."
- Yamamoto Tsunetomo

User avatar
Salus Maior
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22638
Founded: Jun 16, 2014
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Salus Maior » Sat Mar 06, 2021 8:47 am

Traditionalist Catholic, Constitutional Monarchist, Habsburg Nostalgic, Distributist.

”I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.”- Faramir, The Two Towers

“No one in the world can change Truth. What we can do and should do is to seek truth and to serve it when we have found it. The real conflict is the inner conflict. Beyond armies of occupation and the hecatombs of extermination camps, there are two irreconcilable enemies in the depth of every soul: good and evil, sin and love. And what use are the victories on the battlefield if we ourselves are defeated in our innermost personal selves?”
~ St. Maximilian Kolbe

User avatar
Salus Maior
Postmaster of the Fleet
 
Posts: 22638
Founded: Jun 16, 2014
Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Salus Maior » Sat Mar 06, 2021 8:49 am

Hakinda Herseyi Duymak istiyorum wrote:I'm not against it, but I really know what their mentality is.


Lol, no you don't.

You can't even keep coherence between what you supposedly believe and what you actually support, and you constantly interpret anything that's not explicitly Turk nationalist propaganda as being anti-Turk and anti-secularism. In terms of understanding where anyone is coming from, you're immature at best and disingenuous at worst.

Old Tyrannia wrote:Those villainous religious extremists and their... *checks notes* peaceful interfaith dialogues!


Good thing the Armenian patriarch isn't there, or else he'd be ranting about anti-Turkish conspiracies.
Last edited by Salus Maior on Sat Mar 06, 2021 8:52 am, edited 1 time in total.
Traditionalist Catholic, Constitutional Monarchist, Habsburg Nostalgic, Distributist.

”I do not love the bright sword for its sharpness, nor the arrow for its swiftness, nor the warrior for his glory. I love only that which they defend.”- Faramir, The Two Towers

“No one in the world can change Truth. What we can do and should do is to seek truth and to serve it when we have found it. The real conflict is the inner conflict. Beyond armies of occupation and the hecatombs of extermination camps, there are two irreconcilable enemies in the depth of every soul: good and evil, sin and love. And what use are the victories on the battlefield if we ourselves are defeated in our innermost personal selves?”
~ St. Maximilian Kolbe

PreviousNext

Advertisement

Remove ads

Return to General

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Blue Nagia, Dejado Atras, Galloism, Gamers Rise Up Land, Heloin, Jestar Falls, Kowani, Lacienia, Mercatus, New haven america, Shanghai industrial complex, Uiiop

Advertisement

Remove ads