Christian Discussion Thread XI: Anicetus’ Revenge

[Nioya]

After being accused of being the Anglican Steven Anderson, it made me want to read more books so I can defend my ideas against any attacks. I read a bit of a 600 page book on polity my Baptist friend's pastor sent me. I thought I could read most of it and say "after reading that I reckon I could start a Baptist church in my tighty whities".

[Lower Nubia]

The Lord is testing my patience. I am really getting to know someone more than I ever have, for better or worse. This person was of great help to me before and I appreciate her and I have been praying for her well-being a lot. I just ask that you join me in praying for her, thank you.

Do they have a first name?

[Lower Nubia]

After being accused of being the Anglican Steven Anderson, it made me want to read more books so I can defend my ideas against any attacks. I read a bit of a 600 page book on polity my Baptist friend's pastor sent me. I thought I could read most of it and say "after reading that I reckon I could start a Baptist church in my tighty whities".

A 600-page book of Baptist Polity? That's the kind of literature they make you read in purgatory.

[Spiritual Republic of Caryton]

After being accused of being the Anglican Steven Anderson, it made me want to read more books so I can defend my ideas against any attacks. I read a bit of a 600 page book on polity my Baptist friend's pastor sent me. I thought I could read most of it and say "after reading that I reckon I could start a Baptist church in my tighty whities".

A 600-page book of Baptist Polity? That's the kind of literature they make you read in purgatory.

No, that's Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price.

[Lower Nubia]

A 600-page book of Baptist Polity? That's the kind of literature they make you read in purgatory.

No, that's Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price.

They're the writings for the first circle of hell.

[Tarsonis]

No, that's Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price.

They're the writings for the first circle of hell.

Sixth*

[The New California Republic]

Here's a story about a monastery that is in my neck of the woods:

Twenty years ago, an order of Catholic monks bought a small Orkney island where they could celebrate the Latin Mass. They are continuing a religious tradition which gave Papa Stronsay its name. Brother Nicodemus Mary loves to pray in private in the ruins of St Nicholas' Chapel. It dates back to the 11th Century, but this Orkney island's religious links run even deeper.

It is thought that monks worshipped on the island back in the time of St Columba, in the 6th Century. Vikings settled there in the 8th Century and named it Papa Stronsay - which means Priests' Island of Stronsay. The original monastery was abandoned in the 16th Century - but for the last 20 years the island has once again been home to monks who celebrate Holy Mass in the language which would have been used by priests many centuries ago. The order - the Sons of the Most Holy Redeemer, also known as the Transalpine Redemptorists - was founded in the late 1980s to maintain the practise of celebrating the liturgy in Latin. At the time the Roman Catholic Church was modernising its services, and encouraging priests to use local languages - so insisting on the old ways was seen as an act of rebellion. But the monks are now back in full communion with the Diocese of Aberdeen and the worldwide church.

They bought Papa Stronsay after the order's founder, Father Michael Mary, and some of the priests and brothers visited Orkney on holiday. Father Michael - whose grandmother had lived in Orkney - said they had originally wanted to find a small house they could use for retreats and study leave. But a Kirkwall estate agent also gave them the details of the island, which was being sold by local farmer Charles Smith. "On the back of the particulars of Papa Stronsay, it had some of the history of the island. So we thought: 'Could we buy it'? "We came out here on Valentine's Day and as soon as we stepped on the island, we thought: 'We've got to come here'," Father Michael told BBC Radio Orkney. Mr Smith agreed to reduce the asking price from £250,000 to £200,000. "That was fantastic. He was very very kind, but we still didn't have any money," said Father Michael. The community, which was then based on the Isle of Sheppey in Kent, embarked on nine days of prayer and fundraising - which left them about £30,000 short of the total they needed. But then the phone rang and someone offered to donate the rest of the money. "So by the end of the ninth day, we had all the money to buy Papa Stronsay," recalled Father Michael.

There are currently about a dozen members of the order living on the island. It has a similar number at its other base in New Zealand. For the monks, a typical day starts at 05:00 with an hour of individual meditation in their cells, followed by two hours of prayer in the chapel. After breakfast, the morning is spent in study and work before a bell rings at midday to remind the community to quietly recite the Angelus to themselves as an act of private devotion. That's followed by another service and then lunch, during which the brothers listen to improving readings and sacred texts. The remainder of the day includes prayers, work and possibly some relaxation, before supper, more prayers and then the "great silence". The lights and generator are switched off at 21:30. Brother Nicodemus says it is very special to think that they pray the same prayers, in the same language, in the same places as priests did centuries ago. "We share a brotherhood with them in a very tangible way", he says. "It's an entire life, an entire sacrifice, an entire mindset, an entire faith. It's everything. The centuries don't really separate us at all." Father Magdala Maria, the rector of the community in Papa Stronsay, said it was "a privilege" to visit sites used by their predecessors. "It continues that procession, that chain, of people who've been here, and prayed here," he said. "The monks who lived here in the 7th and 8th centuries? We wouldn't be able to speak to them. But we'd be able to pray with them."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... d-51725946

[Lower Nubia]

Here's a story about a monastery that is in my neck of the woods:

(Image)

Twenty years ago, an order of Catholic monks bought a small Orkney island where they could celebrate the Latin Mass. They are continuing a religious tradition which gave Papa Stronsay its name. Brother Nicodemus Mary loves to pray in private in the ruins of St Nicholas' Chapel. It dates back to the 11th Century, but this Orkney island's religious links run even deeper.

It is thought that monks worshipped on the island back in the time of St Columba, in the 6th Century. Vikings settled there in the 8th Century and named it Papa Stronsay - which means Priests' Island of Stronsay. The original monastery was abandoned in the 16th Century - but for the last 20 years the island has once again been home to monks who celebrate Holy Mass in the language which would have been used by priests many centuries ago. The order - the Sons of the Most Holy Redeemer, also known as the Transalpine Redemptorists - was founded in the late 1980s to maintain the practise of celebrating the liturgy in Latin. At the time the Roman Catholic Church was modernising its services, and encouraging priests to use local languages - so insisting on the old ways was seen as an act of rebellion. But the monks are now back in full communion with the Diocese of Aberdeen and the worldwide church.

They bought Papa Stronsay after the order's founder, Father Michael Mary, and some of the priests and brothers visited Orkney on holiday. Father Michael - whose grandmother had lived in Orkney - said they had originally wanted to find a small house they could use for retreats and study leave. But a Kirkwall estate agent also gave them the details of the island, which was being sold by local farmer Charles Smith. "On the back of the particulars of Papa Stronsay, it had some of the history of the island. So we thought: 'Could we buy it'? "We came out here on Valentine's Day and as soon as we stepped on the island, we thought: 'We've got to come here'," Father Michael told BBC Radio Orkney. Mr Smith agreed to reduce the asking price from £250,000 to £200,000. "That was fantastic. He was very very kind, but we still didn't have any money," said Father Michael. The community, which was then based on the Isle of Sheppey in Kent, embarked on nine days of prayer and fundraising - which left them about £30,000 short of the total they needed. But then the phone rang and someone offered to donate the rest of the money. "So by the end of the ninth day, we had all the money to buy Papa Stronsay," recalled Father Michael.

There are currently about a dozen members of the order living on the island. It has a similar number at its other base in New Zealand. For the monks, a typical day starts at 05:00 with an hour of individual meditation in their cells, followed by two hours of prayer in the chapel. After breakfast, the morning is spent in study and work before a bell rings at midday to remind the community to quietly recite the Angelus to themselves as an act of private devotion. That's followed by another service and then lunch, during which the brothers listen to improving readings and sacred texts. The remainder of the day includes prayers, work and possibly some relaxation, before supper, more prayers and then the "great silence". The lights and generator are switched off at 21:30. Brother Nicodemus says it is very special to think that they pray the same prayers, in the same language, in the same places as priests did centuries ago. "We share a brotherhood with them in a very tangible way", he says. "It's an entire life, an entire sacrifice, an entire mindset, an entire faith. It's everything. The centuries don't really separate us at all." Father Magdala Maria, the rector of the community in Papa Stronsay, said it was "a privilege" to visit sites used by their predecessors. "It continues that procession, that chain, of people who've been here, and prayed here," he said. "The monks who lived here in the 7th and 8th centuries? We wouldn't be able to speak to them. But we'd be able to pray with them."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... d-51725946

A real shame that the Dissolution of the Monasteries destroyed or displaced these communities. Glad they've returned. Hopefully this community lasts as long, or longer, than the original.

[Minachia]

After being accused of being the Anglican Steven Anderson, it made me want to read more books so I can defend my ideas against any attacks. I read a bit of a 600 page book on polity my Baptist friend's pastor sent me. I thought I could read most of it and say "after reading that I reckon I could start a Baptist church in my tighty whities".

A 600-page book of Baptist Polity? That's the kind of literature they make you read in purgatory.

Isn't the point of Purgatory to cleanse you?

[Lower Nubia]

A 600-page book of Baptist Polity? That's the kind of literature they make you read in purgatory.

Isn't the point of Purgatory to cleanse you?

with fire.

[Auze]

A 600-page book of Baptist Polity? That's the kind of literature they make you read in purgatory.

No, that's Doctrine and Covenants and the Pearl of Great Price.

Nah, Pearl of Great Price is too short.

[Aeritai]

Opinion on Jim Bakker?

[The Archregimancy]

Here's a story about a monastery that is in my neck of the woods:

(Image)

Twenty years ago, an order of Catholic monks bought a small Orkney island where they could celebrate the Latin Mass. They are continuing a religious tradition which gave Papa Stronsay its name. Brother Nicodemus Mary loves to pray in private in the ruins of St Nicholas' Chapel. It dates back to the 11th Century, but this Orkney island's religious links run even deeper.

It is thought that monks worshipped on the island back in the time of St Columba, in the 6th Century. Vikings settled there in the 8th Century and named it Papa Stronsay - which means Priests' Island of Stronsay. The original monastery was abandoned in the 16th Century - but for the last 20 years the island has once again been home to monks who celebrate Holy Mass in the language which would have been used by priests many centuries ago. The order - the Sons of the Most Holy Redeemer, also known as the Transalpine Redemptorists - was founded in the late 1980s to maintain the practise of celebrating the liturgy in Latin. At the time the Roman Catholic Church was modernising its services, and encouraging priests to use local languages - so insisting on the old ways was seen as an act of rebellion. But the monks are now back in full communion with the Diocese of Aberdeen and the worldwide church.

They bought Papa Stronsay after the order's founder, Father Michael Mary, and some of the priests and brothers visited Orkney on holiday. Father Michael - whose grandmother had lived in Orkney - said they had originally wanted to find a small house they could use for retreats and study leave. But a Kirkwall estate agent also gave them the details of the island, which was being sold by local farmer Charles Smith. "On the back of the particulars of Papa Stronsay, it had some of the history of the island. So we thought: 'Could we buy it'? "We came out here on Valentine's Day and as soon as we stepped on the island, we thought: 'We've got to come here'," Father Michael told BBC Radio Orkney. Mr Smith agreed to reduce the asking price from £250,000 to £200,000. "That was fantastic. He was very very kind, but we still didn't have any money," said Father Michael. The community, which was then based on the Isle of Sheppey in Kent, embarked on nine days of prayer and fundraising - which left them about £30,000 short of the total they needed. But then the phone rang and someone offered to donate the rest of the money. "So by the end of the ninth day, we had all the money to buy Papa Stronsay," recalled Father Michael.

There are currently about a dozen members of the order living on the island. It has a similar number at its other base in New Zealand. For the monks, a typical day starts at 05:00 with an hour of individual meditation in their cells, followed by two hours of prayer in the chapel. After breakfast, the morning is spent in study and work before a bell rings at midday to remind the community to quietly recite the Angelus to themselves as an act of private devotion. That's followed by another service and then lunch, during which the brothers listen to improving readings and sacred texts. The remainder of the day includes prayers, work and possibly some relaxation, before supper, more prayers and then the "great silence". The lights and generator are switched off at 21:30. Brother Nicodemus says it is very special to think that they pray the same prayers, in the same language, in the same places as priests did centuries ago. "We share a brotherhood with them in a very tangible way", he says. "It's an entire life, an entire sacrifice, an entire mindset, an entire faith. It's everything. The centuries don't really separate us at all." Father Magdala Maria, the rector of the community in Papa Stronsay, said it was "a privilege" to visit sites used by their predecessors. "It continues that procession, that chain, of people who've been here, and prayed here," he said. "The monks who lived here in the 7th and 8th centuries? We wouldn't be able to speak to them. But we'd be able to pray with them."

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotland- ... d-51725946

A real shame that the Dissolution of the Monasteries destroyed or displaced these communities. Glad they've returned. Hopefully this community lasts as long, or longer, than the original.

Minor point of historical order...

The Dissolution of the Monasteries, capitalised, describes the suppression of monasteries in Tudor England (and Wales, and those part of Ireland under effective English Crown control) under Henry VIII.

The monastery described by The New California Republic is in Orkney, Scotland; the Dissolution of the Monasteries therefore isn't applicable. While broadly contemporaneous, the end of monasticism in Scotland was a different historical process. Scotland went through a Calvinist Presbyterian Reformation under the Stuarts, rather than the Anglican Settlement eventually reached under Henry VIII's daughter Elizabeth I. Perhaps counterintuitively, the end of Scottish Catholic monasticism was a far less revolutionary process than the English Dissolution of the Monasteries. Where in England the government actively suppressed monasteries, confiscating and redistributing most of their property (except where monastic churches were allowed to continue as local parish churches) and forcing the monastic brotherhoods to disband, in Scotland (where monasticism seems to have already been in decline) the government usually just allowed the monasteries to wither away without the need for direct Crown intervention - though some urban monastic houses were sacked by more active followers of Knox and his circle.

[Tarsonis]

Well, this sucks.

https://www.wcvb.com/amp/article/archdi ... s/31488459

[Dylar]

Well, this sucks.

https://www.wcvb.com/amp/article/archdi ... s/31488459

I didn't think that was possible. So I'm guessing those who live there need to watch Mass on the TV to fulfill their Sunday obligation?

[Tarsonis]

Well, this sucks.

https://www.wcvb.com/amp/article/archdi ... s/31488459

I didn't think that was possible. So I'm guessing those who live there need to watch Mass on the TV to fulfill their Sunday obligation?

No. We're dispensed from the obligation until this blows over

[New Visayan Islands]

I didn't think that was possible. So I'm guessing those who live there need to watch Mass on the TV to fulfill their Sunday obligation?

No. We're dispensed from the obligation until this blows over

Same here in Manila.

[Auze]

Well, this sucks.

https://www.wcvb.com/amp/article/archdi ... s/31488459

Yeah.

[Hakons]

I didn't think that was possible. So I'm guessing those who live there need to watch Mass on the TV to fulfill their Sunday obligation?

No. We're dispensed from the obligation until this blows over

We have the same thing here, though masses are still available. I'm not sure what mass will be like though, since:

1. Elderly people and at-risk populations are discouraged to attend (like 75% of the congregation)
2. Communion no longer includes the chalice
3. No Sign of Peace, keep "social distance"
4. Holy water founts are drained
5. Hymnals and missals are removed
6. Encouraged to receive communion in the hand (I don't want to do this ugh)

[The Archregimancy]

Well, this sucks.

https://www.wcvb.com/amp/article/archdi ... s/31488459

Somewhat to my dismay, the Orthodox Church - or at least several of the autocephalous churches, including Constantinople, Athens, Cyprus, and Bulgaria - is refusing to suspend or restrict communion on the grounds that the holy chalice and spoon used to deliver communion are incapable of spreading the virus; 'no disease or illness can exist in holy communion, which we believe is the body and blood of Christ'.

This is a common enough opinion in Orthodoxy, and my wife's grandfather (a Moscow Patriarchate archpriest) used to say this frequently. But then he died over 15 years ago, and never had to deal with an international pandemic during his priesthood.

There's been some attempt to restrict the kissing of icons, and to make sure icons are disinfected, but not communion.

Archbishop Ieronymos of the Church of Greece (not the same as Constantinople; Athens is autocephalous) has since issued a 'clarifying' statement urging the faithful to be 'responsible' and stressing that no one will call their faith into question if they decide not to attend the liturgy and/or take communion. But I wish that the Orthodox Church had taken a leaf from Catholicism on this one - and it's not very often you'll see me write that.


In any case, we're suspending Easter this year. It may be a moot point if I'm unable to fly home from Cairo for Holy Week, but if I do go home we'll set up the fast-breaking feast at home, and then watch the key parts of the liturgy from Moscow on time delay, and then maybe throw in the Paschal Homily of St John Chrysostom, before tucking in rather earlier than we usually do; we don't usually get home until 2:00 am.

[Lost Memories]

This sure isn't the first time regions of the orthodox churches had to deal with epidemics.
So has that belief the tools to dispense communion can't become intermediaries of infection, survived/endured past all the previous epidemics?

Is there any historical record on that regard? About how the orthodox churces did deal or react toward past epidemics?

(i don't mean from the scientific view, since understanding of germs is a pretty recent discovery, i'm more interested in customs which may have been influenced by the passage of pestilences, or which didn't get influenced)

[The New California Republic]

The Anglican Church is also going to be taking measures to reduce risk of Coronavirus transmission.

[The Archregimancy]

This sure isn't the first time regions of the orthodox churches had to deal with epidemics.
So has that belief the tools to dispense communion can't become intermediaries of infection, survived/endured past all the previous epidemics?

Let's just say that the first recorded major Europe-wide pandemic - the 6th-century Plague of Justinian - is literally named after an Orthodox saint.

So yes.

Though in fairness the two outbreaks of bubonic plague in the 6th and 14th centuries were most likely usually spread by fleas, so from an epidemiological perspective were quite different, and sharing a communion spoon would not have risked direct transmission.

[Maineiacs]

I didn't think that was possible. So I'm guessing those who live there need to watch Mass on the TV to fulfill their Sunday obligation?

No. We're dispensed from the obligation until this blows over

I'll still watch Mass on TV anyway, provided EWTN is still broadcasting daily Mass while this is going on.


EDIT: I just double-checked with my Diocese, and while no Masses have been canceled here, our Bishop issued a statement saying “Those who are compromised because of age, illness, or other complicating health issues are excused from Mass” That would include me, as a cancer survivor. We are also under flu protocols announced back in January, before coronavirus was even here.

Priests will announce that if parishioners are sick or already have any type of cold or flu-like symptoms, they are asked to stay home, both for their well-being and that of others. When individuals are ill, they are not bound by the Sunday Mass obligation. Encouraging people who are at risk to stay away from large church gatherings is an extra step intended to maintain their health.

The distribution of the shared consecrated wine for the faithful is suspended, with the exception of those who must receive from the cup due to medical reasons (i.e., Celiac disease).

The faithful will be urged, but not required, to receive Holy Communion in the hand rather than on the tongue. All ministers of Holy Communion are advised to distribute the consecrated hosts with care, being cautious not to touch the tongue or the hand of the communicant.

All ministers of Holy Communion must sanitize their hands before and after distributing Holy Communion.

All Maine parishes will empty their holy water fonts. Water will be blessed at all Easter Vigil Masses.

Breaking with custom, parishioners should not shake hands during the Sign of Peace and will be encouraged to offer a verbal greeting, smile, or bow of the head. Hospitality ministers should also not shake hands, but rather offer verbal greetings. They will be strongly encouraged to sanitize their hands prior to and after exercising their particular ministry as well. Parishioners should not hold hands during the Our Father.

Sponges, sometimes found in holy water fonts, should not be used.

Prayers of the Faithful will include prayers for those stricken with the flu or other serious illness, for those who care for the sick, and for the community at large.
These protocols will remain in effect until further notice and are similar to those established during other severe flu seasons.

[Diopolis]

Well, this sucks.

https://www.wcvb.com/amp/article/archdi ... s/31488459

The diocese of Dallas did the same thing. Fort Worth is now restricting mass to parishioners only(I live near the border between the two but am registered in Dallas). Guess I'll be at the SSPX for a while.
Edit: Meanwhile, the Diocese of Tyler is now requiring parishes to hold a eucharistic procession to implore the help of God on behalf of the ill. I live in the wrong place.