Christian Discussion Thread XI: Anicetus’ Revenge

[Europa Undivided]

Happy Ash Wednesday all! Hoping we can all use this period wisely.


He's been Pentecostal for years. Unfortunately Kanye's church is satanic so its not a good thing.

I'm not a fan of Kanye, but calling his church satanic is a bit of a strech... Considering he made a album called "Jesus Is King"

I wouldn't call it satanic. More like heterodox.

[Albrenia]

To be fair, not even some of the Satanic churches are actually satanic. They're more like atheists with too much edge.

[Nakena]

I'm not a fan of Kanye, but calling his church satanic is a bit of a strech... Considering he made a album called "Jesus Is King"

I wouldn't call it satanic. More like heterodox.

For Eglaecia many things are satanic. Even if they aren't.

To be fair, not even some of the Satanic churches are actually satanic. They're more like atheists with too much edge.

Most of them actually.

[An Infinity Gauntlet]

I personally believe Kanye was touched by god. No mere mortal could of created the banger that is “Follow God” without divine intervention. Dare say, it got me to go to church. Amen, brother.

[Minachia]

True, but his association with Joel Osteen doesn't exactly help.

Is it because of his prosperity gospel?

What else?

Happy Ash Wednesday mah dudes! Hope everyone's starting something for this Lenten season!

Is "Happy" really a correct way to greet someone on the first day of Lent? Anyway, I'm starting the Divine Comedy.

[Sundiata]

Happy Ash Wednesday mah dudes! Hope everyone's starting something for this Lenten season!

I'm starting the Divine Comedy.

Great choice! Take note of Ash Wednesday.

My ashes are still on my forehead.

[Sundiata]

Is "Happy" really a correct way to greet someone on the first day of Lent?

Yes, Lent marks the liturgical spring as well as Christ's 40 day walk through the desert where he resisted Satan's temptation. While solemn, I'm glad our Lord made it through.

[Lower Nubia]

Is it because of his prosperity gospel?

What else?

Happy Ash Wednesday mah dudes! Hope everyone's starting something for this Lenten season!

Is "Happy" really a correct way to greet someone on the first day of Lent? Anyway, I'm starting the Divine Comedy.

Our Lord's life in every aspect is the conquest over sin, what's not to be happy about when he trampled the devil underfoot in this period?

[Lower Nubia]

I personally believe Kanye was touched by god. No mere mortal could of created the banger that is “Follow God” without divine intervention. Dare say, it got me to go to church. Amen, brother.

New Ecumenical Council to add his album to the Canon?

[Mirial Magna]

I personally believe Kanye was touched by god. No mere mortal could of created the banger that is “Follow God” without divine intervention. Dare say, it got me to go to church. Amen, brother.

New Ecumenical Council to add his album to the Canon?

At the very least, put it in the Hymnals.

[Minachia]

Is "Happy" really a correct way to greet someone on the first day of Lent?

Yes, Lent marks the liturgical spring as well as Christ's 40 day walk through the desert where he resisted Satan's temptation. While solemn, I'm glad our Lord made it through.

Our Lord's life in every aspect is the conquest over sin, what's not to be happy about when he trampled the devil underfoot in this period?

idk, Lent always seems somber to me, although it is something to be celebrated.

[Mountains and Volcanoes]

What’s everyone (in this thread) Christian Denomination? Which one do you belong to?

Mines is an interesting one...

[Sundiata]

Yes, Lent marks the liturgical spring as well as Christ's 40 day walk through the desert where he resisted Satan's temptation. While solemn, I'm glad our Lord made it through.

Our Lord's life in every aspect is the conquest over sin, what's not to be happy about when he trampled the devil underfoot in this period?

idk, Lent always seems somber to me, although it is something to be celebrated.

I happen to be a very joyous Catholic.

[Sundiata]

What’s everyone (in this thread) Christian Denomination? Which one do you belong to?

I'm a Roman Catholic.

[Stylan]

What’s everyone (in this thread) Christian Denomination? Which one do you belong to?

Mines is an interesting one...

I have no idea yet, unfortunately.

[Lower Nubia]

What’s everyone (in this thread) Christian Denomination? Which one do you belong to?

Mines is an interesting one...

Don't currently have one.

[Europa Undivided]

What’s everyone (in this thread) Christian Denomination? Which one do you belong to?

Mines is an interesting one...

I am technically a Baptist but my theology is Reformed.

[Kowtowannia]

What’s everyone (in this thread) Christian Denomination? Which one do you belong to?

Mines is an interesting one...

Let me guess, are you a Cathar?

[Mirial Magna]

What’s everyone (in this thread) Christian Denomination? Which one do you belong to?

Mines is an interesting one...

Let me guess, are you a Cathar?

*Opens up Wikipedia*

Luckily, my denomination mix is in a factbook. I'm a Baptist, but I agree with a lot of Calvinist theology.

[Tarsonis]

I disagree. I find when trying to contemplate abstract ideas like the nature of God, herbal remedies help release the mind from its usual, concrete, way of processing

Um... I've been catechized to believe intoxication is a sin. I'm at a university parish, so believe me there is drinking, but our priests and missionaries tell us not to get drunk, high, ect... and say explicitly that it's sinful behavior that would require confession.

I don't doubt it. I admit my view is probably not popular, but temperance is not a straight forward issue, nor is there a collectively agreed upon position. The catechism is also somewhat vague.

2290 The virtue of temperance disposes us to avoid every kind of excess: the abuse of food, alcohol, tobacco, or medicine. Those incur grave guilt who, by drunkenness or a love of speed, endanger their own and others' safety on the road, at sea, or in the air.

See in this verse, drunkenness itself is not condemned out right. What is promoted is temperance and what is condemned is those who harm others through their own lack of temperance, through their own irresponsibility.
.

2291 The use of drugs inflicts very grave damage on human health and life. Their use, except on strictly therapeutic grounds, is a grave offense. Clandestine production of and trafficking in drugs are scandalous practices. They constitute direct co-operation in evil, since they encourage people to practices gravely contrary to the moral law.

This one is a bit more direct. Using drugs outside of their intended medicinal use is bad, and dealing drugs is even worse because of the damage it causes. But we're left with the vague conundrum: what is a drug? I mean everything from caffeine to oxycontin is technically considered a drug. Given the bit about therapy, this strikes me as referring to pharmaceuticals.

But honestly I'd rather not parse words like a pharisee. Rather I'd prefer to seek the root of the matter, what is the true issue that's being expressed here.


Scripture gives us the best view.

Now the most off cited verses against drinking come from 1 Peter:

1Pe 4:7 - But the end of all things is at hand: be ye therefore sober, and watch unto prayer.

1Pe 5:8 - Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

However that is the KJV translation.

The two words the KJV translate KJV sober are
σωφρονέω and νήφω respectively. Neither refer to inebriation specifically, but rather mean possessing a sound mind, be clear thinking. Sober as the English word to mean "not-drunk" is also a relatively recent development. In King James' day, it also simply meant "of sound mind." The relationship to inebriation came later.

Which is why the more modern translations like the NRSV, instead translates as "disciplined."



"Discipline yourselves, keep alert. Like a roaring lion your adversary the devil prowls around, looking for someone to devour."

Both verses refer to keeping a sound mind as a defense against the devil, or more to the point a defense against making bad choices. Being of unsound mind, is not, in and of itself, a sin. Rather a near occasion of sin, as it puts you in a precarious situation in which you are not thinking clearly, and thus susceptible to making bad decisions.

Now, i will concede that, alone that would be enough to say, you should never get drunk.


However, we have the Wedding at Caana to square with.

The Wedding at Cana
2 On the third day there was a wedding in Cana of Galilee, and the mother of Jesus was there. 2 Jesus and his disciples had also been invited to the wedding. 3 When the wine gave out, the mother of Jesus said to him, “They have no wine.” 4 And Jesus said to her, “Woman, what concern is that to you and to me? My hour has not yet come.” 5 His mother said to the servants, “Do whatever he tells you.” 6 Now standing there were six stone water jars for the Jewish rites of purification, each holding twenty or thirty gallons. 7 Jesus said to them, “Fill the jars with water.” And they filled them up to the brim. 8 He said to them, “Now draw some out, and take it to the chief steward.” So they took it. 9 When the steward tasted the water that had become wine, and did not know where it came from (though the servants who had drawn the water knew), the steward called the bridegroom 10 and said to him, “Everyone serves the good wine first, and then the inferior wine after the guests have become drunk. But you have kept the good wine until now.” 11 Jesus did this, the first of his signs, in Cana of Galilee, and revealed his glory; and his disciples believed in him.

12 After this he went down to Capernaum with his mother, his brothers, and his disciples; and they remained there a few days.

Several indications are to be noted here.

1. The Jars hold 20-30 gallons. I did the math once, it's a bit over 900 modern bottles of wine, a single one of which is enough to get a person drunk now, let alone then when people were smaller and BAC would spike faster.

2. The Crowd was already drunk as noted in verse 10. We can also deduce this from contextual study. In first century Judea, just like the rest of the ANE, the law of hospitality ruled. Under that law, it is a grave embarrassment to run out wine at a wedding. Such a thing would mean that the host did not adequately prepare for the festivities, and is either a cheap or inattentive host.

For that reason, what was customary of the day is as the steward describes it. The host buys some good wine, and as much of the cheapest wine they can buy. The idea being that the guests get drunk on the good stuff, and then you switch to the cheap stuff because they can't taste the difference anymore. (As a former bartender I can confirm that this still happens today.) So, knowing that we see that the guests had drank through all of the the Host's wine. Cheap and expensive alike.

So, from contextual and scriptural knowledge we know that there was a wedding, where everyone was tossed, and rather than order ubers for all the guests, Christ dunked almost a thousand bottles of gasoline onto the fire.


So at the end we're left with a conflicting issue. The text doesnt indicate if Christ was drunk, but it does indicate that he furtherd the drunkening of other people. Since participating in the sins of others is itself a sin, we can conclude that drunkenness is not a sin, in and of itself.



Where do we land then, between Peter and Christ? Squarely in the middle. Yes, be temperate, disciplined, and keeping of sound mind. Do not be a drunkard or an addict. At the same time, cutting loose every once in a while isnt necessarily a bad thing, so long as you're safe and responsible about it.


Por example, sometimes at the end of the day as I'm going to bed or watching TV for bed, I either smoke from my vape or my pipe. It's relaxing.

Is that a sin? Not really given the above criteria. Now if I get blazed out of my mind before going to mass or out in in public or something, now the robot is indicating danger.

[Minachia]

What’s everyone (in this thread) Christian Denomination? Which one do you belong to?

Mines is an interesting one...

Confessional Lutheran (Missouri Synod)

[Europa Undivided]

Let me guess, are you a Cathar?

*Opens up Wikipedia*

Luckily, my denomination mix is in a factbook. I'm a Baptist, but I agree with a lot of Calvinist theology.

That's two of us.

[New Visayan Islands]

What’s everyone (in this thread) Christian Denomination? Which one do you belong to?

I'm a Roman Catholic.

Ditto...shame we haven't seen any Eastern Rite brethren in this forum.

[Grimmsland]

What’s everyone (in this thread) Christian Denomination? Which one do you belong to?

Mines is an interesting one...

Let me guess, are you a Cathar?

I'd like to know some Cathars! I heard they're Rosicrucians today.. but I'm suspicious.

[Grimmsland]

What’s everyone (in this thread) Christian Denomination? Which one do you belong to?

Mines is an interesting one...

You're a Serpent-seed doctrine believing Branhamite who believes he was Elijah and that all women possess the ability to spawn little Cains?