Christian Discussion Thread XI: Anicetus’ Revenge

[Sundiata]

Question.

Was Mary, Mother of Jesus 16 or younger when she gave birth to him?

The bible doesn't specify and there is no tradition to suggest that is the case. Certain age conclusions are speculation.

[Celritannia]

Question.

Was Mary, Mother of Jesus 16 or younger when she gave birth to him?

The bible doesn't specify and there is no tradition to suggest that is the case. Certain age conclusions are speculation.

So ancient Palestine didn't have traditions.
Good to know.

[Celritannia]

Question.

Was Mary, Mother of Jesus 16 or younger when she gave birth to him?

It's a bit of a guess, but the age is considered anywhere between 12-17. 15-16 is the most widely-accepted answer. Mary would have been considered an adult in Judaism, but because she was pregnant out-of-wedlock, she would have been in grave danger if she had been discovered. It's a little tricky. From a cursory search, 15-16 is about the most accepted age.

This is from Catholic Answers, borrowing a little from the Protoevangelium of James:
To begin with, the Protoevangelium records that when Mary’s birth was prophesied, her mother, St. Anne, vowed that she would devote the child to the service of the Lord, as Samuel had been by his mother (1 Sam. 1:11). Mary would thus serve the Lord at the Temple, as women had for centuries (1 Sam. 2:22), and as Anna the prophetess did at the time of Jesus’ birth (Luke 2:36–37). A life of continual, devoted service to the Lord at the Temple meant that Mary would not be able to live the ordinary life of a child-rearing mother. Rather, she was vowed to a life of perpetual virginity.

However, due to considerations of ceremonial cleanliness, it was eventually necessary for Mary, a consecrated “virgin of the Lord,” to have a guardian or protector who would respect her vow of virginity. Thus, according to the Protoevangelium, Joseph, an elderly widower who already had children, was chosen to be her spouse. (This would also explain why Joseph was apparently dead by the time of Jesus’ adult ministry, since he does not appear during it in the gospels, and since Mary is entrusted to John, rather than to her husband Joseph, at the crucifixion).

According to the document, Joseph was required to regard Mary’s vow of virginity with the utmost respect. The gravity of his responsibility as the guardian of a virgin was indicated by the fact that, when she was discovered to be with child, he had to answer to the Temple authorities, who thought him guilty of defiling a virgin of the Lord. Mary was also accused of having forsaken the Lord by breaking her vow. Keeping this in mind, it is an incredible insult to the Blessed Virgin to say that she broke her vow by bearing children other than her Lord and God, who was conceived through the power of the Holy Spirit.

While the Protoevangelium of James is a bit of an odd document since it is not considered biblical (though it is considered historical), several of the Church Fathers uphold that Mary was at the least 12, was betrothed to Joseph when she was considered an adult, and probably had Jesus a while later. I wish I could find a document with hard numbers, but that's not really easy to find.

If you'd like to take a look at the link, here it is below!:
https://www.catholic.com/tract/mary-ever-virgin

I read two similar websites to this actually.
The Catholic Encyclopedia, and truthortradition.

[Sundiata]

The bible doesn't specify and there is no tradition to suggest that is the case. Certain age conclusions are speculation.

So ancient Palestine didn't have traditions.
Good to know.

No? There is no Christian tradition or canonical evidence that certainly documents her age.

[Celritannia]

So ancient Palestine didn't have traditions.
Good to know.

No? There is no Christian tradition or canonical evidence that documents her age.

Christianity didn't exist before the birth of Christ?
Who'd have thought?

[Luminesa]

It's a bit of a guess, but the age is considered anywhere between 12-17. 15-16 is the most widely-accepted answer. Mary would have been considered an adult in Judaism, but because she was pregnant out-of-wedlock, she would have been in grave danger if she had been discovered. It's a little tricky. From a cursory search, 15-16 is about the most accepted age.

This is from Catholic Answers, borrowing a little from the Protoevangelium of James:
To begin with, the Protoevangelium records that when Mary’s birth was prophesied, her mother, St. Anne, vowed that she would devote the child to the service of the Lord, as Samuel had been by his mother (1 Sam. 1:11). Mary would thus serve the Lord at the Temple, as women had for centuries (1 Sam. 2:22), and as Anna the prophetess did at the time of Jesus’ birth (Luke 2:36–37). A life of continual, devoted service to the Lord at the Temple meant that Mary would not be able to live the ordinary life of a child-rearing mother. Rather, she was vowed to a life of perpetual virginity.

However, due to considerations of ceremonial cleanliness, it was eventually necessary for Mary, a consecrated “virgin of the Lord,” to have a guardian or protector who would respect her vow of virginity. Thus, according to the Protoevangelium, Joseph, an elderly widower who already had children, was chosen to be her spouse. (This would also explain why Joseph was apparently dead by the time of Jesus’ adult ministry, since he does not appear during it in the gospels, and since Mary is entrusted to John, rather than to her husband Joseph, at the crucifixion).

According to the document, Joseph was required to regard Mary’s vow of virginity with the utmost respect. The gravity of his responsibility as the guardian of a virgin was indicated by the fact that, when she was discovered to be with child, he had to answer to the Temple authorities, who thought him guilty of defiling a virgin of the Lord. Mary was also accused of having forsaken the Lord by breaking her vow. Keeping this in mind, it is an incredible insult to the Blessed Virgin to say that she broke her vow by bearing children other than her Lord and God, who was conceived through the power of the Holy Spirit.

While the Protoevangelium of James is a bit of an odd document since it is not considered biblical (though it is considered historical), several of the Church Fathers uphold that Mary was at the least 12, was betrothed to Joseph when she was considered an adult, and probably had Jesus a while later. I wish I could find a document with hard numbers, but that's not really easy to find.

If you'd like to take a look at the link, here it is below!:
https://www.catholic.com/tract/mary-ever-virgin

I read two similar websites to this actually.
The Catholic Encyclopedia, and truthortradition.

Catholic Encyclopedia is good, but sometimes a little weighty. I dunno about the other one. Catholic Answers is good for concise answers, hence why I grabbed it.

[Sundiata]

No? There is no Christian tradition or canonical evidence that documents her age.

Christianity didn't exist before the birth of Christ?
Who'd have thought?

[Luminesa]

Question.

Was Mary, Mother of Jesus 16 or younger when she gave birth to him?

The bible doesn't specify and there is no tradition to suggest that is the case. Certain age conclusions are speculation.

That the Bible doesn't specify it doesn't mean Church Tradition goes out the window. They might be speculation, but they can be decent speculations.

The thing to note about apocrypha is that it exists primarily because some documents were considered not only deuterocanonical (like Tobit and Maccabees), but were not considered divinely-inspired or were considered to be more speculative. While the Protoevangelium is a little controversial, it has been used by Church Fathers as an approximate of what is believed to have been the story of Mary. Given that they lived much closer to the time of Mary than we did, it's fair to say they have at least part of the story correct.

[Celritannia]

Christianity didn't exist before the birth of Christ?
Who'd have thought?

Since Mary and Joseph were Jews, brought Jesus up in a Jewish tradition, it would be reasonable to argue Mary was married in her early teens, and then gave birth to Jesus soon after.

[Sundiata]

Since Mary and Joseph were Jews, brought Jesus up in a Jewish tradition, it would be reasonable to argue Mary was married in her early teens, and then gave birth to Jesus soon after.

It's also reasonable to conclude that Mary was older given her divinely ordered role as the Theoktos and selection by God. She was not just any person of Israel or the Davidian house. It lacks scriptural context to suggest typical circumstances surrounding the birth and conception of Christ.

[Celritannia]

Since Mary and Joseph were Jews, brought Jesus up in a Jewish tradition, it would be reasonable to argue Mary was married in her early teens, and then gave birth to Jesus soon after.

It's also reasonable to conclude that Mary was older given her divinely ordered role as the Theoktos and selection by God. She was not just any person of Israel or the Davidian house. It lacks context to suggest typical circumstances surrounding the birth and conception of Christ.

I refer to Lumi's post above, if you want to keep denying a fact.

[Sundiata]

It's also reasonable to conclude that Mary was older given her divinely ordered role as the Theoktos and selection by God. She was not just any person of Israel or the Davidian house. It lacks context to suggest typical circumstances surrounding the birth and conception of Christ.

I refer to Lumi's post above, if you want to keep denying a fact.

I refer you to the entire New Testament if you want to continue to claim a certain age for Our Lady.

[Celritannia]

I refer to Lumi's post above, if you want to keep denying a fact.

I refer you to the entire New Testament if you want to continue to claim a certain age for Our Lady.

The bible doesn't specify and there is no tradition to suggest that is the case. Certain age conclusions are speculation.

That the Bible doesn't specify it doesn't mean Church Tradition goes out the window. They might be speculation, but they can be decent speculations.

The thing to note about apocrypha is that it exists primarily because some documents were considered not only deuterocanonical (like Tobit and Maccabees), but were not considered divinely-inspired or were considered to be more speculative. While the Protoevangelium is a little controversial, it has been used by Church Fathers as an approximate of what is believed to have been the story of Mary. Given that they lived much closer to the time of Mary than we did, it's fair to say they have at least part of the story correct.

[Luminesa]

Since Mary and Joseph were Jews, brought Jesus up in a Jewish tradition, it would be reasonable to argue Mary was married in her early teens, and then gave birth to Jesus soon after.

It's also reasonable to conclude that Mary was older given her divinely ordered role as the Theoktos and selection by God. She was not just any person of Israel or the Davidian house. It lacks scriptural context to suggest typical circumstances surrounding the birth and conception of Christ.

Remember that as Catholics, we can pull from the Church Fathers and the Magisterium on this matter, yes. We lack a lot of scriptural evidence on Mary, outside of St. Luke or outside of a specific line of exegesis. However, the Church Fathers, St. Catherine Emmerich, and several saints saw points of Mary's life to help fill some of the blanks. With any Church literature, it is good to treat the reading as an opening to prayer and to understanding as God wishes us to understand. That includes books that are not the Bible.

[Sundiata]

Speculation nonetheless.

The Protoevangelium was condemned and rightfully so. Certain claims with respect to Our Lady remain speculation. We can pray on the matter, we can certainly believe one conclusion or the other to be true but there is no definitive reason, let alone theological basis to presume that Our Lady was immorally young at the conception and birth of Christ. While brilliant, many church fathers were also prone to mistaken conclusions. For example, the many foregone conclusions of Origen.

[Celritannia]

Speculation nonetheless.

The Protoevangelium was condemned and rightfully so. Certain claims with respect to Our Lady remain speculation. We can pray on the matter, we can certainly believe one conclusion or the other to be true but there is no definitive reason, let alone theological basis to presume that Our Lady was very young at the conception and birth of Christ. While brilliant, many church father's were also prone to mistaken conclusions.

And denying basic ancient history, and cultural jewish traditions of the day, which Mary would have followed.

[Sundiata]

Speculation nonetheless.

The Protoevangelium was condemned and rightfully so. Certain claims with respect to Our Lady remain speculation. We can pray on the matter, we can certainly believe one conclusion or the other to be true but there is no definitive reason, let alone theological basis to presume that Our Lady was very young at the conception and birth of Christ. While brilliant, many church father's were also prone to mistaken conclusions.

And denying basic ancient history, and cultural jewish traditions of the day, which Mary would have followed.

Could have followed, and probably would have if it weren't for her Immaculate Conception and Divine Motherhood.

[Salus Maior]

Question.

Was Mary, Mother of Jesus 16 or younger when she gave birth to him?

It's certainly possible.

Women would usually be married around that age at that time. In fact, that wouldn't be very unusual even in some places in the West not that long ago.

[Salus Maior]

Speculation nonetheless.

The Protoevangelium was condemned and rightfully so. Certain claims with respect to Our Lady remain speculation. We can pray on the matter, we can certainly believe one conclusion or the other to be true but there is no definitive reason, let alone theological basis to presume that Our Lady was very young at the conception and birth of Christ. While brilliant, many church father's were also prone to mistaken conclusions.

And denying basic ancient history, and cultural jewish traditions of the day, which Mary would have followed.

Why do you feel so strongly about this?

[Celritannia]

And denying basic ancient history, and cultural jewish traditions of the day, which Mary would have followed.

Why do you feel so strongly about this?

Because of sunny's *ahem* more than appropriate feelings towards Mary.

[Sundiata]

Why do you feel so strongly about this?

Because of sunny's *ahem* more than appropriate feelings towards Mary.

That she is perfect? Essentially feminine because she is a woman?

[Salus Maior]

Why do you feel so strongly about this?

Because of sunny's *ahem* more than appropriate feelings towards Mary.

Oh brother. Sun isn't fetishizing Mary and hasn't.

I don't know why people have decided to spread such a disgusting rumor just because he loves Our Mother and uses a lot of flowery language.

And regardless, Mary isn't a teenager anymore considering she lived a full life and was taken up into Heaven at the end of it. So we can just wrap up and forget this gross line of thought altogether.

[Sundiata]

Because of sunny's *ahem* more than appropriate feelings towards Mary.

Oh brother. Sun isn't fetishizing Mary and hasn't.

I don't know why people have decided to spread such a disgusting rumor just because he loves Our Mother and uses a lot of flowery language.

And regardless, Mary isn't a teenager anymore considering she lived a full life and was taken up into Heaven at the end of it. So we can just wrap up and forget this gross line of thought altogether.

Thank you, but to be fair, I do acknowledge that some of my prior poems written to honor Our Lady were written haphazardly and easily could have been interpreted as sinful.

I cannot apologize more for that specific mistake of mine and I bare full responsibility for that.

[The Marlborough]

Historically the age in which a person could get married was when they started puberty but often this was delayed for a number of years, especially for non-aristocratic marriages. For example, female Romans could legally get married at the age of 12 but often they wouldn't get married until their mid to late teens and a little bit beyond that for the lower classes. Even in post-Babylonian Exile Judaism, 14 was considered the ideal age for marriage, which was generally after many girls had already started puberty, not to mention that the process of getting married could take up to a year, ie they would have been closer to 15 when all is done and they could legally consummate. Generally speaking, aristocratic families would have been the ones closer to that ideal as opposed to non-aristocratic ones.

It gets more confusing considering that in a lot of cases, engagements would be made at 12 (or even before then) but the marriage itself was often delayed until a few years later. Also as I mentioned earlier, the process of getting married in Jewish families back then could take up to a year but from the beginning of being betrothed a couple would be considered a married couple. Given that ~15 (give or take a year) is when a lot of female aristocrats tended to get married in most societies (and whether or not this would be from the start of betrothal for Jewish ones or when it's done I wouldn't know), and Mary was not one, it's more probable that she wasn't younger than 16 when Jesus was born.

[Luminesa]

Historically the age in which a person could get married was when they started puberty but often this was delayed for a number of years, especially for non-aristocratic marriages. For example, female Romans could legally get married at the age of 12 but often they wouldn't get married until their mid to late teens and a little bit beyond that for the lower classes. Even in post-Babylonian Exile Judaism, 14 was considered the ideal age for marriage, which was generally after many girls had already started puberty, not to mention that the process of getting married could take up to a year, ie they would have been closer to 15 when all is done and they could legally consummate. Generally speaking, aristocratic families would have been the ones closer to that ideal as opposed to non-aristocratic ones.

It gets more confusing considering that in a lot of cases, engagements would be made at 12 (or even before then) but the marriage itself was often delayed until a few years later. Also as I mentioned earlier, the process of getting married in Jewish families back then could take up to a year but from the beginning of being betrothed a couple would be considered a married couple. Given that ~15 (give or take a year) is when a lot of female aristocrats tended to get married in most societies (and whether or not this would be from the start of betrothal for Jewish ones or when it's done I wouldn't know), and Mary was not one, it's more probable that she wasn't younger than 16 when Jesus was born.

That...sounds about accurate.