Christian Discussion Thread XI: Anicetus’ Revenge

[Tarsonis]

(Image)

This is very quickly moving from anything related to theology and more into a, "OT IS TOXIC!" and "TARS IS TOXIC!" and "EVERYONE IS TOXIC" fight. This is unbecoming of all of you, especially around Christmas. And anyone who is cheering for this fight should be ashamed. If ya'll can't even talk theology without firing at each other like you're the Union and the Confederacy, get off the computer and go take a break. There's too much hot air in this room, and it ain't coming from the cinnamon rolls I just baked.

.....sorry.

[Salus Maior]

(Image)

This is very quickly moving from anything related to theology and more into a, "OT IS TOXIC!" and "TARS IS TOXIC!" and "EVERYONE IS TOXIC" fight. This is unbecoming of all of you, especially around Christmas. And anyone who is cheering for this fight should be ashamed. If ya'll can't even talk theology without firing at each other like you're the Union and the Confederacy, get off the computer and go take a break. There's too much hot air in this room, and it ain't coming from the cinnamon rolls I just baked.

^

[Sundiata]

Everyone, get your popcorn, get your armor because it's time for another crusade.

Hardly. Old Tyrannia's anticatholic bigotry is well established, and his claims of toxicity really is a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Not worth my time to hash that out again.

Oh.

To tell you the truth, I'm only here for the church. I have no time for personal squabbles. Also, our faith is a contentious subject because it can't be secular. While elements of truth can be found in other beliefs and traditions, those beliefs and traditions are ultimately wrong.

One thing I admire about you is your rigorous defense of our church, you're doing "Opus Dei," here or in other words, the "Lord's Work," and it's not often that I see the Lord's work done so fervently; I highly commend you for that sir.

[The Blaatschapen]

Turelsia has used the idea of unconditional election to make the claim that executing people is for their own good because they can never accept the Holy Spirit, something which from my understanding and what other people in this thread have confirmed to me, flies in the face of the idea that the Son died for everyone's sins and that everyone is the worst possible sinner they could be. My own belief is irrelevant in this situation because Christianity is something that anyone can learn about.

Again, it's no coincidence that the Lord rode into Jerusalem on a mule.

The sheep were busy, okay?

[Sundiata]

Again, it's no coincidence that the Lord rode into Jerusalem on a mule.

The sheep were busy, okay?

Well, that's why Christ is also called the Good Shepard as sheep are easier animals to herd. All of that said, myself and many others unfortunately have the stubbornness of an ass and so I practice the theology of the donkey.

[The Blaatschapen]

The sheep were busy, okay?

Well, that's why Christ is also called the Good Shepard as sheep are easier animals to herd. All of that said, myself and many others unfortunately have the stubbornness of an ass and so I practice the theology of the donkey.

https://edition.cnn.com/style/amp/ghent ... index.html

[Suriyanakhon]

I am not saying that this space should be for Christians only. I'm a former moderator, I think I know the rules for General- no thread ownership being one of them. My point is that you don't believe that Christianity is true; therefore, the idea that there is any such thing as "Christian orthodoxy" isn't one you should believe in in the first place. With that in mind, how can you make any judgements about which of the various sects of Christianity are right and wrong, and what constitutes the "core components" of Christianity? That's something that's Christians to dispute amongst themselves; you have no grounds on which to make such judgements, although you are perfectly entitled to prefer a particular Christian denomination's position.

Because Christianity is a historical movement with scriptures, rituals, commentaries, doctrines, and other content which is definable and separates it from other systems of belief such as Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. I can make a judgement about how (for example) Mormonism is completely divorced from how Christianity has defined itself for two thousand years. And I have a hard time believing that a 16th century man in Switzerland managed to intuit some hidden secret from the Bible that other scholars and commentators somehow missed for millennia.

To you it's all just nonsense, so logically there can be no "right" position. If you like Catholicism better than Calvinism, then fine, that's your prerogative, but I don't see how you can say that Calvinists reject a core belief of Christianity as a non-Christian yourself.

That's a mischaracterization of my beliefs which I won't get into, but I'm not a personal fan of either, the sole church that I've attended is an Orthodox one with a friend. But characterizing Catholicism with rabid slurs out of Alexander Hislop's book and claiming it's actually pagan is ridiculous whatever creed you believe in.

The reason I have not taken part in any argument between Turelisa and Tarsonis is that I have absolutely no interest in interacting with either of them. They are toxic individuals, reasoning with them is pointless.

Thank you for not viewing me through a similar negative lens.

[Punished UMN]

Well, this is perhaps the greatest example of a burn I have seen in a while. I would recommend some immediate third-degree burn surgery at the hospital.

Didn't even scratch the surface. The deceit, hysteria and vicious ad hominem with which Tarsonis has disgraced himself exposes faults that show the Holy Spirit has done no work within him, despite his professed faith.
It just goes to show Catholicism, the spawn of Roman imperalism and mongrel mystico-paganism, is the heresy which it has always been.

Bruh, you realize your denomination goes back to like the 1940's, right? Your beliefs have no historical basis in Christian thought.

[The Blaatschapen]

But this isn't a Christian only server, it's a forum that anyone can go on and give their opinion on anything. If you want to make one of the former, then I certainly can't fault your free association, but Max Barry is the one that foots the bill for the server this forum is on.

I am not saying that this space should be for Christians only. I'm a former moderator, I think I know the rules for General- no thread ownership being one of them. My point is that you don't believe that Christianity is true; therefore, the idea that there is any such thing as "Christian orthodoxy" isn't one you should believe in in the first place. With that in mind, how can you make any judgements about which of the various sects of Christianity are right and wrong, and what constitutes the "core components" of Christianity? That's something that's Christians to dispute amongst themselves; you have no grounds on which to make such judgements, although you are perfectly entitled to prefer a particular Christian denomination's position.

To you it's all just nonsense, so logically there can be no "right" position. If you like Catholicism better than Calvinism, then fine, that's your prerogative, but I don't see how you can say that Calvinists reject a core belief of Christianity as a non-Christian yourself.

I also don't believe in hobbits, orcs, elves, and the rest of Middle-Earth.

Yet I can safely say that whatever happens related to that over in P2TM isn't particularly canon (yet).

In the same vein I can see Christianity. As a world made by texts, ideas and concepts, polished over ages, in different forms of media (books, films, musicals). Now, Christianity has more authors and the its concepts have been shaped over a longer period of time, whereas Middle Earth generally comes down to JRR Tolkiens estate. But still, if there are clear outliers in Christianity (like the aforementioned Mormonism), I can call them out as such.

tl;dr: the book of Mormon is Christian fan fiction

[The Federal Government of Iowa]

Didn't even scratch the surface. The deceit, hysteria and vicious ad hominem with which Tarsonis has disgraced himself exposes faults that show the Holy Spirit has done no work within him, despite his professed faith.
It just goes to show Catholicism, the spawn of Roman imperalism and mongrel mystico-paganism, is the heresy which it has always been.

Bruh, you realize your denomination goes back to like the 1940's, right? Your beliefs have no historical basis in Christian thought.

What denomination is he a part of?

[Sundiata]

Well, that's why Christ is also called the Good Shepard as sheep are easier animals to herd. All of that said, myself and many others unfortunately have the stubbornness of an ass and so I practice the theology of the donkey.

https://edition.cnn.com/style/amp/ghent ... index.html

Oh no.

Well, there's a lot to be said for that reaction to the art piece. It demonstrates that too many people are not familiar enough with Christ's sorrowful passion.

To start, Jesus Christ literally sweat blood and was offered vinegar to drink instead of water. The gruesome torture of Jesus is not depicted enough these days but it's something to highlight. Every drop of blood, lash of the whip, every laceration of his flesh needs to be etched into the mind of every person.

But because we live in such sensitive times, it's hard to get people to engage in little passions like the discipline or the cilice. These are activities that don't even draw blood, for instance. At least these aren't the only means of mortifying our flesh. For catechesis to really stick, the agony of Christ needs to be an everyday suffering.

[The Federal Government of Iowa]

I am not saying that this space should be for Christians only. I'm a former moderator, I think I know the rules for General- no thread ownership being one of them. My point is that you don't believe that Christianity is true; therefore, the idea that there is any such thing as "Christian orthodoxy" isn't one you should believe in in the first place. With that in mind, how can you make any judgements about which of the various sects of Christianity are right and wrong, and what constitutes the "core components" of Christianity? That's something that's Christians to dispute amongst themselves; you have no grounds on which to make such judgements, although you are perfectly entitled to prefer a particular Christian denomination's position.

To you it's all just nonsense, so logically there can be no "right" position. If you like Catholicism better than Calvinism, then fine, that's your prerogative, but I don't see how you can say that Calvinists reject a core belief of Christianity as a non-Christian yourself.

I also don't believe in hobbits, orcs, elves, and the rest of Middle-Earth.

Yet I can safely say that whatever happens related to that over in P2TM isn't particularly canon (yet).

In the same vein I can see Christianity. As a world made by texts, ideas and concepts, polished over ages, in different forms of media (books, films, musicals). Now, Christianity has more authors and the its concepts have been shaped over a longer period of time, whereas Middle Earth generally comes down to JRR Tolkiens estate. But still, if there are clear outliers in Christianity (like the aforementioned Mormonism), I can call them out as such.

tl;dr: the book of Mormon is Christian fan fiction

lol I agree
If Jesus Visited the Native Americans: A Historical Fiction
XD

[Old Tyrannia]

I am not saying that this space should be for Christians only. I'm a former moderator, I think I know the rules for General- no thread ownership being one of them. My point is that you don't believe that Christianity is true; therefore, the idea that there is any such thing as "Christian orthodoxy" isn't one you should believe in in the first place. With that in mind, how can you make any judgements about which of the various sects of Christianity are right and wrong, and what constitutes the "core components" of Christianity? That's something that's Christians to dispute amongst themselves; you have no grounds on which to make such judgements, although you are perfectly entitled to prefer a particular Christian denomination's position.

Because Christianity is a historical movement with scriptures, rituals, commentaries, doctrines, and other content which is definable and separates it from other systems of belief such as Islam, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc. I can make a judgement about how (for example) Mormonism is completely divorced from how Christianity has defined itself for two thousand years. And I have a hard time believing that a 16th century man in Switzerland managed to intuit some hidden secret from the Bible that other scholars and commentators somehow missed for millennia.

As I've pointed out before, the Protestant Reformers- John Calvin included- did not come up with their theology by sitting alone with a Bible. They were aware of and informed by the writings of the church fathers. Calvin's ideas are a logical, if not necessarily inevitable, development of the theology of St Augustine of Hippo. The clear break with prior Christian theology that you and many others see at the Reformation simply isn't real, at least not to the extent you imply; if you really want a somewhat objective statement of the core components of Christianity then look no further than the Apostles' and Nicene Creeds, which Calvinists completely assent to. Mormons cannot say the same; they not only have their own scriptures that are not accepted by Christians but depart from historic Christian beliefs as fundamental as trinitarianism and monotheism.

To you it's all just nonsense, so logically there can be no "right" position. If you like Catholicism better than Calvinism, then fine, that's your prerogative, but I don't see how you can say that Calvinists reject a core belief of Christianity as a non-Christian yourself.

That's a mischaracterization of my beliefs which I won't get into, but I'm not a personal fan of either, the sole church that I've attended is an Orthodox one with a friend. But characterizing Catholicism with rabid slurs out of Alexander Hislop's book and claiming it's actually pagan is ridiculous whatever creed you believe in.

That was Turelisa's argument, not mine. I daresay that my own church would be regarded as quite "pagan" by someone of Turelisa's opinions. And I want to emphasise that I have said nothing about Catholicism in this discussion any more offensive than that I think it's incorrect and that the Calvinist doctrine of unconditional election is not greater a departure from the historical Christian faith than some of the things taught in the Roman Catholic Church. My intent here is to defend Calvinism against charges I regard as unfair, not to attack Catholicism.

[Luminesa]

Well, that's why Christ is also called the Good Shepard as sheep are easier animals to herd. All of that said, myself and many others unfortunately have the stubbornness of an ass and so I practice the theology of the donkey.

https://edition.cnn.com/style/amp/ghent ... index.html

That altarpiece is gorgeous, and I don't really see what's so frightening about the sheep-it looks like a sheep! But the memes around it are still kinda funny.

At the very least they didn't somehow destroy its integrity in the process of restoring it.

[The Blaatschapen]

https://edition.cnn.com/style/amp/ghent ... index.html

Oh no.

Well, there's a lot to be said for that reaction to the art piece. It demonstrates that too many people are not familiar enough with Christ's sorrowful passion.

To start, Jesus Christ literally sweat blood and was offered vinegar to drink instead of water. The gruesome torture of Jesus is not depicted enough these days but it's something to highlight. Every drop of blood, lash of the whip, every laceration of his flesh needs to be etched into the mind of every person.

But because we live in such sensitive times, it's hard to get people to engage in little passions like the discipline or the cilice. These are activities that don't even draw blood, for instance. At least these aren't the only means of mortifying our flesh. For catechesis to really stick, the agony of Christ needs to be an everyday suffering.

Why would I chastise myself, if Jeusus already died for my sins?

What use is that? I'll probably suffer enough in this life, losing loved ones, sickness, smelly cars, etc.

And then, purgatory and hell for me (if a bunch of christian denominations is right on that one)

Why inflict extra suffering on myself voluntarily?

[The Federal Government of Iowa]

Oh no.

Well, there's a lot to be said for that reaction to the art piece. It demonstrates that too many people are not familiar enough with Christ's sorrowful passion.

To start, Jesus Christ literally sweat blood and was offered vinegar to drink instead of water. The gruesome torture of Jesus is not depicted enough these days but it's something to highlight. Every drop of blood, lash of the whip, every laceration of his flesh needs to be etched into the mind of every person.

But because we live in such sensitive times, it's hard to get people to engage in little passions like the discipline or the cilice. These are activities that don't even draw blood, for instance. At least these aren't the only means of mortifying our flesh. For catechesis to really stick, the agony of Christ needs to be an everyday suffering.

Why would I chastise myself, if Jeusus already died for my sins?

What use is that? I'll probably suffer enough in this life, losing loved ones, sickness, smelly cars, etc.

And then, purgatory and hell for me (if a bunch of christian denominations is right on that one)

Why inflict extra suffering on myself voluntarily?

Jesus commanded us to take up our crosses daily, and live well. I don't agree with him that we need to seek suffering or something, but suffering put upon us is something we should gladly bear with hope and knowledge of Christ.

[Sundiata]

To clarify I am not saying that every Christian should be tortured to the extent that our Lord was and neither is the Catholic Church. We are moreso saying that by denying ourselves the things which make the spiritual life difficult, we share in the sorrowful passions of Christ.

[Rosmana]

To clarify I am not saying that every Christian should be tortured to the extent that our Lord was and neither is the Catholic Church. We are moreso saying that by denying ourselves the things which make the spiritual life difficult, we share in the sorrowful passions of Christ.

Like this:

I see a boy drowining in freezing cold water, I can:
-Rosk my own life and jump in.
-Or I can do nothing, and not risk myself.

Just do the right thing.

[The Blaatschapen]

To clarify I am not saying that every Christian should be tortured to the extent that our Lord was and neither is the Catholic Church. We are moreso saying that by denying ourselves the things which make the spiritual life difficult, we share in the sorrowful passions of Christ.

Like this:

I see a boy drowining in freezing cold water, I can:
-Rosk my own life and jump in.
-Or I can do nothing, and not risk myself.

Just do the right thing.

-option 3: throw in a girl too, because feminism.

Wait...

[Old Tyrannia]

Like this:

I see a boy drowining in freezing cold water, I can:
-Rosk my own life and jump in.
-Or I can do nothing, and not risk myself.

Just do the right thing.

-option 3: throw in a girl too, because feminism.

Wait...

"You've got it all wrong, officer! I wasn't trying to drown her, it was an emergency baptism!"

[Sundiata]

To clarify I am not saying that every Christian should be tortured to the extent that our Lord was and neither is the Catholic Church. We are moreso saying that by denying ourselves the things which make the spiritual life difficult, we share in the sorrowful passions of Christ.

Like this:

I see a boy drowining in freezing cold water, I can:
-Rosk my own life and jump in.
-Or I can do nothing, and not risk myself.

Just do the right thing.

Absolutely! But don't knock the cilice or the discipline. While they are useful reminders, they are a hard sell.

[Rosmana]

Like this:

I see a boy drowining in freezing cold water, I can:
-Rosk my own life and jump in.
-Or I can do nothing, and not risk myself.

Just do the right thing.

Absolutely! But don't knock the cilice or the discipline. While they are useful reminders, they are a hard sell.

Sorry you lost me, the what?

[Sundiata]

Absolutely! But don't knock the cilice or the discipline. While they are useful reminders, they are a hard sell.

Sorry you lost me, the what?

The discipline and the cilice. The discipline is a whip that's less than two ounces made of cotton string. The cilice is just a light metal chain you wear around your thigh. These are just two mild forms of bodily penance that I participate in. St. Mother Theresa, St. Padre Pio, and St. Francis of Assisi all did the same. These are just small sacrifices. They're not intended to draw blood, but they are intended to be uncomfortable.

A short film to help.

[Rosmana]

Sorry you lost me, the what?

The discipline and the cilice. The discipline is a whip that's less than two ounces made of cotton string. The cilice is just a light metal chain you wear around your thigh. These are just two mild forms of bodily penance that I participate in. St. Mother Theresa, St. Padre Pio, and St. Francis of Assisi who all did the same. These are just small sacrifices.

A short film to help.

Ehhh, I am not a monk, or an Opus Dei member, sorry but that stuff creeps me out.

[Suriyanakhon]

Sorry you lost me, the what?

The discipline and the cilice. The discipline is a whip that's less than two ounces made of cotton string. The cilice is just a light metal chain you wear around your thigh. These are just two mild forms of bodily penance that I participate in. St. Mother Theresa, St. Padre Pio, and St. Francis of Assisi who all did the same. These are just small sacrifices.

A short film to help.

That seems pretty worrying, to be honest. I'm not sure it's mentally healthy for someone to inflict pain on themselves willingly, even if lighter than some other forms of mortification.