Christian Discussion Thread XI: Anicetus’ Revenge

[Lost Memories]

Analogy: If heaven is the Airport, purgatory is the baggage and TSA area.

Which is why I said, the aim is to go to the airport, not to camp in the airport security area.

[Tarsonis]

Analogy: If heaven is the Airport, purgatory is the baggage and TSA area.

Which is why I said, the aim is to go to the airport, not to camp in the airport security area.

Well yeah, but it is inevitable. We all have to spend some time there, regardless.

[Lost Memories]

Well yeah, but it is inevitable. We all have to spend some time there, regardless.

Some time, yeah. All the same time, nope.

[Tarsonis]

Well yeah, but it is inevitable. We all have to spend some time there, regardless.

Some time, yeah. All the same time, nope.

much as I would like the express pass, I'm too aware that I'm gonna be in that lane for a few millenia at least.

[Xmara]

Analogy: If heaven is the Airport, purgatory is the baggage and TSA area.

Which is why I said, the aim is to go to the airport, not to camp in the airport security area.

I mean, there are people who have taken up residence in airports...

[Atheris]

Which is why I said, the aim is to go to the airport, not to camp in the airport security area.

I mean, there are people who have taken up residence in airports...

What was that movie called? The Terminal, or something?

I haven't seen it in a while.

[Suriyanakhon]

Analogy: If heaven is the Airport, purgatory is the baggage and TSA area.

If purgatory is a place of hope, comparing it to the TSA is super unfair.

[Kowani]

I mean, there are people who have taken up residence in airports...

What was that movie called? The Terminal, or something?

I haven't seen it in a while.

well, he was there entirely unwillingly

[Sundiata]

Given our conversation about purgatory, I would like to learn more about heaven. Does anyone have any suggestions? I was talking to my friend about hell, purgatory, and heaven. She really enjoyed discussing heaven and I'm starting to share her enthusiasm.

[Lost Memories]

I mean, there are people who have taken up residence in airports...

My reasoning was rather that, by not choosing heaven and settling for purgatory, that could count as something like lazyness, which could be damning in itself. So someone aiming for just purgatory during life, could actually fall off by neglect so much, and go so low, to end in hell.

While it's a given, not everyone who aim for heaven are going to be perfect once dead, and enter heaven right away, so purgatory.
Because of the fallibility and weakness of the human nature, falling short can always happen.

While instead, who aims for just purgatory, is already setting a lower bar for themselves.
Purgatory after all is an idea which relies on the mercy of God, it's not something to actually aim for. Like one shouldn't sin with the idea that God is merciful anyway. I'm not sure where, but there should be a part in theology which deals with the ones who abuse the mercy of God.
There is also the idea that the time spent in purgatory is proportional to the purification needed to enter heaven, so just aiming for purgatory could lead to more purification needed.

Which sort of connects to the worry of Sundiata, if you are worried about the struggle in purgatory, aim the highest possible, that is heaven.
By aiming for heaven, either one gets there directly, or will have little to get purified from.

[New Visayan Islands]

Tomorrow, December 16th, is the start of the predawn Novena Masses for Christmas here in the Philippines. In my home diocese, the Novena Masses (known either as Simbang Gabi or Misa de Gallo) are scheduled for 0430 across all churches...and the Cathedral's first Novena Mass will be presided by the Bishop.

I asked the priests who do TLM if they do the Novena Mass in TLM, but no such luck. Maybe down the line, I might see Misa de Gallo in TLM, but not now...

[Sundiata]

Tomorrow, December 16th, is the start of the predawn Novena Masses for Christmas here in the Philippines. In my home diocese, the Novena Masses (known either as Simbang Gabi or Misa de Gallo) are scheduled for 0430 across all churches...and the Cathedral's first Novena Mass will be presided by the Bishop.

I asked the priests who do TLM if they do the Novena Mass in TLM, but no such luck. Maybe down the line, I might see Misa de Gallo in TLM, but not now...

God is in your heart.

[Lost Memories]

Tomorrow, December 16th, is the start of the predawn Novena Masses for Christmas here in the Philippines. In my home diocese, the Novena Masses (known either as Simbang Gabi or Misa de Gallo) are scheduled for 0430 across all churches...and the Cathedral's first Novena Mass will be presided by the Bishop.

I asked the priests who do TLM if they do the Novena Mass in TLM, but no such luck. Maybe down the line, I might see Misa de Gallo in TLM, but not now...

That's very early, and to keep that up for 9 days, very impressive. Do many people take part in the pre-christmas novenas in the Philippines?

[New Visayan Islands]

Tomorrow, December 16th, is the start of the predawn Novena Masses for Christmas here in the Philippines. In my home diocese, the Novena Masses (known either as Simbang Gabi or Misa de Gallo) are scheduled for 0430 across all churches...and the Cathedral's first Novena Mass will be presided by the Bishop.

I asked the priests who do TLM if they do the Novena Mass in TLM, but no such luck. Maybe down the line, I might see Misa de Gallo in TLM, but not now...

That's very early, and to keep that up for 9 days, very impressive. Do many people take part in the pre-christmas novenas in the Philippines?

Yes, to the point that the Church had to coordinate with the Alphabet Soup of Coof Control for this year. And even then, some people risk ruining it for everyone else.

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

So here's a question: can Satan be redeemed? Like, does he have the option to repent and be saved? Or is he eternally screwed? Can only humans be granted salvation or do fallen angels and demons get that second chance, too?

[Lord Dominator]

So here's a question: can Satan be redeemed? Like, does he have the option to repent and be saved? Or is he eternally screwed? Can only humans be granted salvation or do fallen angels and demons get that second chance, too?

Without specific knowledge of much of any of the theology on the subject, I would say yes, but in practice I go with no, since it'd obligate admitting fault. Since tradition/whatnot that I'm aware of is that his sin was pride and thinking he could do better than God...

(of course, there are probably those who may subscribe to the Jewish view that I understand he acts more as prosecutor, than tempter.)

[Esheaun Stroakuss]

Why was Eve eating from the Tree of Knowledge a bad thing? My reading of it is that obtaining knowledge is somehow a sin, though that is my interpretation. I always thought Satan wasn't being particularly nefarious.

[Lost Memories]

So here's a question: can Satan be redeemed? Like, does he have the option to repent and be saved? Or is he eternally screwed? Can only humans be granted salvation or do fallen angels and demons get that second chance, too?

I would associate that question to the other question: can people in hell be redeemed? Whose answer is, no. Since hell is a place of definitive rejection of God.
Satan should have free will too, so have the option to repent and be saved, but won't use that option, as the rejection by satan is definitive.
(it's those who definitely reject, who go to hell, and not rather hell which limits the ability to decide)


With fallen angels and other spirits there could be one further complication, or alternative explaination, which delves into the nature of spirits, according to which spirits exists outside the flow of time, so the act of repenting becomes more difficult or not possible, as there isn't a before(sinful) and an after(repented). Acting and repenting is mainly a prerogative of those living inside time. But I'm not sure of which is the origin or basis of that belief.
I've heard it once being mentioned by an exorcist, which surprised me, as I thought that belief about spirits and time to be more of an east asiatic folk belief, so it could very well have been that guy to be the odd one out. Unless someone knows more about this.

[Punished UMN]

So here's a question: can Satan be redeemed? Like, does he have the option to repent and be saved? Or is he eternally screwed? Can only humans be granted salvation or do fallen angels and demons get that second chance, too?

I forget which Athonite monk said this, but the answer is basically "yes, but they don't want to be saved."

[Esheaun Stroakuss]

So here's a question: can Satan be redeemed? Like, does he have the option to repent and be saved? Or is he eternally screwed? Can only humans be granted salvation or do fallen angels and demons get that second chance, too?

I forget which Athonite monk said this, but the answer is basically "yes, but they don't want to be saved."

Why not?

[Punished UMN]

I forget which Athonite monk said this, but the answer is basically "yes, but they don't want to be saved."

Why not?

I can't say, but it would be wrong to necessarily ascribe human motives to a demon, a being whose consciousness is terrible and whose motivations aren't necessarily motivated by rational things like self-preservation. The closest human example I could give is something like maybe the Nazis, where their hatred for Jewry was so great that they were willing to sacrifice elements of their war effort against the Allies as they were losing the war in a desperate bid to kill as many Jews as possible. Imagine that kind of hatred, and then imagine a being or group of beings that hates you and all of humanity in an incalculably more extreme way.

[Esheaun Stroakuss]

I can't say, but it would be wrong to necessarily ascribe human motives to a demon, a being whose consciousness is terrible and whose motivations aren't necessarily motivated by rational things like self-preservation. The closest human example I could give is something like maybe the Nazis, where their hatred for Jewry was so great that they were willing to sacrifice elements of their war effort against the Allies as they were losing the war in a desperate bid to kill as many Jews as possible. Imagine that kind of hatred, and then imagine a being or group of beings that hates you and all of humanity in an incalculably more extreme way.

How was Satan "evil" though?

[Punished UMN]

I can't say, but it would be wrong to necessarily ascribe human motives to a demon, a being whose consciousness is terrible and whose motivations aren't necessarily motivated by rational things like self-preservation. The closest human example I could give is something like maybe the Nazis, where their hatred for Jewry was so great that they were willing to sacrifice elements of their war effort against the Allies as they were losing the war in a desperate bid to kill as many Jews as possible. Imagine that kind of hatred, and then imagine a being or group of beings that hates you and all of humanity in an incalculably more extreme way.

How was Satan "evil" though?

He deprived all of creation of eternal life and closeness with God, for reasons that basically amount to pettiness.

[Esheaun Stroakuss]

How was Satan "evil" though?

He deprived all of creation of eternal life and closeness with God, for reasons that basically amount to pettiness.

Why was that a bad thing? I interpreted the tempting of Eve to be the promise of knowledge and enlightenment. God's reaction seemed pretty drastic, i.e. original sin.

[Punished UMN]

He deprived all of creation of eternal life and closeness with God, for reasons that basically amount to pettiness.

Why was that a bad thing? I interpreted the tempting of Eve to be the promise of knowledge and enlightenment. God's reaction seemed pretty drastic, i.e. original sin.

He did promise knowledge, but some knowledge is bad. Yeah, some of the knowledge Satan gave us benefitted us in some niche ways, but it also introduced us to war, murder, rape, theft, etc, and doomed all humanity, not even just all humanity, but all life, and not even just all life, but the cosmos themselves, to destruction. Now, Christ's coming means that the world and its inhabitants will be redeemed, but think about the enormity of such a crime. Yeah, Satan didn't kill anyone, but he was the one who let us know killing each other, or indeed harming each other in any way was something we even could do.