Christian Discussion Thread XI: Anicetus’ Revenge

[Salus Maior]

If that were completely true in all situations, I imagine the Islamic Caliphates would have had zero problem extending their rule all the way to Scandinavia.

Christianity itself likely wouldn't have survived in any substantial capacity beyond the Middle Ages.

This is why the Just War Doctrine exists. But in the case that Trollyzstan is bringing up, I'd maintain it's germane

Indeed. And considering Christians can validly use force to defend what's sacred, why shouldn't they also resist their leaders when they violate what's sacred? I.E Hitler, Stalin, etc.

[Nihon no Tengoku]

This is why the Just War Doctrine exists. But in the case that Trollyzstan is bringing up, I'd maintain it's germane

Indeed. And considering Christians can validly use force to defend what's sacred, why shouldn't they also resist their leaders when they violate what's sacred? I.E Hitler, Stalin, etc.

I haven't argued against this

[Cbu]

I'm a ethnically Germanic American

I was born a Roman Catholic, became an athiest then agnostic, now I'm "soul searching" and found Asatru.

What do Christians think about the rise of ancient euro faiths, like in Greece and Iceland?

[Tarsonis]

Indeed. And considering Christians can validly use force to defend what's sacred, why shouldn't they also resist their leaders when they violate what's sacred? I.E Hitler, Stalin, etc.

I haven't argued against this

But you really have.

[Tarsonis]

Eh I think you got cause and effect reverse there. You don't facilitate civil war and social collapse to oppose a dictator, those are the natural effect.



And I'm pretty sure the Church would freely admit that wasn't a good thing.

Whether it's a good thing or not is not particularly relevant to whether we should intervene. And so far, though I agree that there is some shakiness depending on the specific situation, I see nothing indicating that it is scripturally mandated that we fight against this hypothetical dictatorship.

Who said anything about the underlined? We're talking about whether scripture forbids it, not whether or not it mandates it.

[Nihon no Tengoku]

Whether it's a good thing or not is not particularly relevant to whether we should intervene. And so far, though I agree that there is some shakiness depending on the specific situation, I see nothing indicating that it is scripturally mandated that we fight against this hypothetical dictatorship.

Who said anything about the underlined? We're talking about whether scripture forbids it, not whether or not it mandates it.

I don't believe I've ever argued that it was forbidden, only that scripture doesn't necessarily support it.

[Tarsonis]

Who said anything about the underlined? We're talking about whether scripture forbids it, not whether or not it mandates it.

I don't believe I've ever argued that it was forbidden, only that scripture doesn't necessarily support it.

Then we've all been talking past each other. Because Trollz never punctuated his sentiment with "Deus Vult." he said "opposing tyrants is a fairly Christian thing even if Christ Himself didn't say as much." You saying his position isn't biblical comes off as saying the bible forbids it, especially when you invoke St. Paul's be subject to the governing authorities speech.

[Nihon no Tengoku]

I don't believe I've ever argued that it was forbidden, only that scripture doesn't necessarily support it.

Then we've all been talking past each other. Because Trollz never punctuated his sentiment with "Deus Vult." he said "opposing tyrants is a fairly Christian thing even if Christ Himself didn't say as much." You saying his position isn't biblical comes off as saying the bible forbids it, especially when you invoke St. Paul's be subject to the governing authorities speech.

I haven't argued against this

But you really have.

With the examples I used in my initial post I was clear to indicate that various apostles and prophets did oppose authorities who contradicted God's commandments. Though I did not explicitly mention any that fought in the name of God, I assumed I wouldn't have to since the principle should be the same since I'm drawing from the same part of the Bible that did feature Jehu overthrowing a tyrannical authority that did oppose God.

To clarify my position just so we're all on the same page here: I still maintain that there is no inherent scriptural basis for opposing a secular authority on secular grounds. I think this will clear up any animosity or apparent inconsistency.

I'm not sure if that forbids it, but that doesn't - as I believe Trollyztan was implying - mean we have a religious duty to do so with his Ben Franklin quote.

EDIT: Just to summarize, my major issue is that I do not find "Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God," to be a doctrinally sound statement.

[Tarsonis]

Then we've all been talking past each other. Because Trollz never punctuated his sentiment with "Deus Vult." he said "opposing tyrants is a fairly Christian thing even if Christ Himself didn't say as much." You saying his position isn't biblical comes off as saying the bible forbids it, especially when you invoke St. Paul's be subject to the governing authorities speech.

But you really have.

With the examples I used in my initial post I was clear to indicate that various apostles and prophets did oppose authorities who contradicted God's commandments. Though I did not explicitly mention any that fought in the name of God, I assumed I wouldn't have to since the principle should be the same since I'm drawing from the same part of the Bible that did feature Jehu overthrowing a tyrannical authority that did oppose God.

To clarify my position just so we're all on the same page here: I still maintain that there is no inherent scriptural basis for opposing a secular authority on secular grounds. I think this will clear up any animosity or apparent inconsistency.

Sure, but there isn't an inherent prohibition of it either. It's a complicated subject.

I'm not sure if that forbids it, but that doesn't - as I believe Trollyztan was implying - mean we have a religious duty to do so with his Ben Franklin quote.

EDIT: Just to summarize, my major issue is that I do not find "Rebellion to tyrants is obedience to God," to be a doctrinally sound statement.

Okay, but it's not an overtly false one either.

[Nihon no Tengoku]

Sure, but there isn't an inherent prohibition of it either. It's a complicated subject.

Fair, I will fully concede that my word choice has been on the prohibitive side.

If a believer earnestly prayed about whether to be involved in overthrowing an unjust authority and felt at peace to do so even if said authority was not necessarily harming the testimony of the church, then you're right, there's no explicit reason for them not to. However, my issue is that Trolls fallaciously implied that Christians have a mandate to oppose 'tyranny' in all forms. This is, strictly speaking, untrue. God tolerated and commanded that we do tolerate 'tyrannical' governments. I don't even see scriptural evidence that we should necessarily err towards fighting such tyranny (if anything, the inverse). But it's absolutely not prohibited, you're correct.

Okay, but it's not an overtly false one either.

as obeying God, which is not strictly the case. For example, as I mentioned earlier, the case of the children of Israel in Jeremiah 41. Furthermore, depending on your definition of 'tyrant,' it can be problematic. Does this imply that Christians should seek to overthrow any nation that isn't a civil democracy? I'd hesitate to say so.

As I've mentioned earlier, I do agree that there are definite cases in which it is right to defy an oppressive government, but this statement specifically attaches too much with too little (ergo no) spiritual backing, and was introduced by a man who had fairly inconsistent views about God his whole life.

If by not overtly false you mean it's sometimes true, fair, I'd agree.

[Punished UMN]

I'm a ethnically Germanic American

I was born a Roman Catholic, became an athiest then agnostic, now I'm "soul searching" and found Asatru.

What do Christians think about the rise of ancient euro faiths, like in Greece and Iceland?

It's nonsense.

[Tarsonis]

I'm a ethnically Germanic American

I was born a Roman Catholic, became an athiest then agnostic, now I'm "soul searching" and found Asatru.

What do Christians think about the rise of ancient euro faiths, like in Greece and Iceland?

It's nonsense.

if the "old gods" were real, they wouldn't be old.

[New Steuben]

It's nonsense.

if the "old gods" were real, they wouldn't be old.

Interesting

What does that say when christians are leaving churches?

[New Steuben]

I'm a ethnically Germanic American

I was born a Roman Catholic, became an athiest then agnostic, now I'm "soul searching" and found Asatru.

What do Christians think about the rise of ancient euro faiths, like in Greece and Iceland?

It's nonsense.

The romans thought about christianity in that same way as well at one point

[Tarsonis]

if the "old gods" were real, they wouldn't be old.

Interesting

What does that say when christians are leaving churches?

England Prevails.

[New Steuben]

Interesting

What does that say when christians are leaving churches?

England Prevails.

Lol

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

I'm a ethnically Germanic American

I was born a Roman Catholic, became an athiest then agnostic, now I'm "soul searching" and found Asatru.

What do Christians think about the rise of ancient euro faiths, like in Greece and Iceland?

I've nothing against pagans, but neopaganism is largely a sham. It's not spirituality; it's rebellious hippies and ethnic ultranationalists reviving dead religions to oppose traditionalism or perceived foreignness, respectively. It'd be one thing if these were religions that had managed to struggle onward into the modern era against persecution and all adversity only to return to prominence, but every single European pagan faith was annihilated to the last. They died out and were totally forgotten. Their revival wasn't out of any kind of grand resurrection but out of human willpower based primarily on either romanticism, rejection of conventional organized religion, xenophobia, or all of the above.

These neopagan movements aren't like Tengriism which has survived well into the modern era on it's own and is being reformed by devotees whose families have long worshiped the gods of the steppe nomads, but are in fact largely people who come from families who've been Christian for centuries adopting the "old gods" out of some misguided attempt or another to achieve a spirituality they personally agree with that fits their goals. If that's what you're into, go right ahead, but don't pull the "well I'm honoring my ancestors/people" card because that's frankly quite a load of bullshit, really.

Neopaganism is just a bunch of dead religions that have become "cool" again and become the latest fad in Europe for trendsetters, hipsters, and Neo-Nazis. Neopaganism is merely an extension of the New Age spiritual movement, which was itself a crock of shit and little more than esotericism being appropriated by progressives and mixed with non-Abrahamic influences to bring hippie hash hallucinations to life.

But again, if it's your prerogative to worship dead gods then have a go at it.

[Tarsonis]

I'm a ethnically Germanic American

I was born a Roman Catholic, became an athiest then agnostic, now I'm "soul searching" and found Asatru.

What do Christians think about the rise of ancient euro faiths, like in Greece and Iceland?

I've nothing against pagans, but neopaganism is largely a sham. It's not spirituality; it's rebellious hippies and ethnic ultranationalists reviving dead religions to oppose traditionalism or perceived foreignness, respectively. It'd be one thing if these were religions that had managed to struggle onward into the modern era against persecution and all adversity only to return to prominence, but every single European pagan faith was annihilated to the last. They died out and were totally forgotten. Their revival wasn't out of any kind of grand resurrection but out of human willpower based primarily on either romanticism, rejection of conventional organized religion, xenophobia, or all of the above.

These neopagan movements aren't like Tengriism which has survived well into the modern era on it's own and is being reformed by devotees whose families have long worshiped the gods of the steppe nomads, but are in fact largely people who come from families who've been Christian for centuries adopting the "old gods" out of some misguided attempt or another to achieve a spirituality they personally agree with that fits their goals. If that's what you're into, go right ahead, but don't pull the "well I'm honoring my ancestors/people" card because that's frankly quite a load of bullshit, really.

Neopaganism is just a bunch of dead religions that have become "cool" again and become the latest fad in Europe for trendsetters, hipsters, and Neo-Nazis. Neopaganism is merely an extension of the New Age spiritual movement, which was itself a crock of shit and little more than esotericism being appropriated by progressives and mixed with non-Abrahamic influences to bring hippie hash hallucinations to life.

But again, if it's your prerogative to worship dead gods then have a go at it.

I for one, blame The Elder Scrolls

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

I've nothing against pagans, but neopaganism is largely a sham. It's not spirituality; it's rebellious hippies and ethnic ultranationalists reviving dead religions to oppose traditionalism or perceived foreignness, respectively. It'd be one thing if these were religions that had managed to struggle onward into the modern era against persecution and all adversity only to return to prominence, but every single European pagan faith was annihilated to the last. They died out and were totally forgotten. Their revival wasn't out of any kind of grand resurrection but out of human willpower based primarily on either romanticism, rejection of conventional organized religion, xenophobia, or all of the above.

These neopagan movements aren't like Tengriism which has survived well into the modern era on it's own and is being reformed by devotees whose families have long worshiped the gods of the steppe nomads, but are in fact largely people who come from families who've been Christian for centuries adopting the "old gods" out of some misguided attempt or another to achieve a spirituality they personally agree with that fits their goals. If that's what you're into, go right ahead, but don't pull the "well I'm honoring my ancestors/people" card because that's frankly quite a load of bullshit, really.

Neopaganism is just a bunch of dead religions that have become "cool" again and become the latest fad in Europe for trendsetters, hipsters, and Neo-Nazis. Neopaganism is merely an extension of the New Age spiritual movement, which was itself a crock of shit and little more than esotericism being appropriated by progressives and mixed with non-Abrahamic influences to bring hippie hash hallucinations to life.

But again, if it's your prerogative to worship dead gods then have a go at it.

I for one, blame The Elder Scrolls

Damn elves. I bet they had something to do with this.

[Diarcesia]

I've nothing against pagans, but neopaganism is largely a sham. It's not spirituality; it's rebellious hippies and ethnic ultranationalists reviving dead religions to oppose traditionalism or perceived foreignness, respectively. It'd be one thing if these were religions that had managed to struggle onward into the modern era against persecution and all adversity only to return to prominence, but every single European pagan faith was annihilated to the last. They died out and were totally forgotten. Their revival wasn't out of any kind of grand resurrection but out of human willpower based primarily on either romanticism, rejection of conventional organized religion, xenophobia, or all of the above.

These neopagan movements aren't like Tengriism which has survived well into the modern era on it's own and is being reformed by devotees whose families have long worshiped the gods of the steppe nomads, but are in fact largely people who come from families who've been Christian for centuries adopting the "old gods" out of some misguided attempt or another to achieve a spirituality they personally agree with that fits their goals. If that's what you're into, go right ahead, but don't pull the "well I'm honoring my ancestors/people" card because that's frankly quite a load of bullshit, really.

Neopaganism is just a bunch of dead religions that have become "cool" again and become the latest fad in Europe for trendsetters, hipsters, and Neo-Nazis. Neopaganism is merely an extension of the New Age spiritual movement, which was itself a crock of shit and little more than esotericism being appropriated by progressives and mixed with non-Abrahamic influences to bring hippie hash hallucinations to life.

But again, if it's your prerogative to worship dead gods then have a go at it.

I for one, blame The Elder Scrolls

I almost expected you to say Crusader Kings

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

I for one, blame The Elder Scrolls

I almost expected you to say Crusader Kings

Nah, that was "Deus Vult".

So... Deus Vult, heathen.

*crusades*

[Tarsonis]

I for one, blame The Elder Scrolls

I almost expected you to say Crusader Kings

Crusader Kings popularizes Medieval Christianity. The Elder Scrolls popularizes Norse Paganism.

[New Steuben]

I almost expected you to say Crusader Kings

Nah, that was "Deus Vult".

So... Deus Vult, heathen.

*crusades*

But why are so many christians becoming atheists and why is christianity on the decline in places like europe. I mean the muslims seem far more devout and capable.

Im not shitting on christianity i like christianity in more than a few ways

[Trollzyn the Infinite]

Nah, that was "Deus Vult".

So... Deus Vult, heathen.

*crusades*

But why are so many christians becoming atheists and why is christianity on the decline in places like europe. I mean the muslims seem far more devout and capable.

Im not shitting on christianity i like christianity in more than a few ways

It's not. Protestantism is in decline; Catholicism, Orthodoxy, and the other older churches are growing.

Which is objectively a good thing.

[Diarcesia]

Nah, that was "Deus Vult".

So... Deus Vult, heathen.

*crusades*

But why are so many christians becoming atheists and why is christianity on the decline in places like europe. I mean the muslims seem far more devout and capable.

Im not shitting on christianity i like christianity in more than a few ways

Probably because they went through the Enlightenment. That and the Thirty Years War.