Nihon no Tengoku wrote:That's an admirable stance but it's still not a Biblically supported approach, which specifically goes back to the initial question: what would Jesus' ideology be?
For what it's worth, I doubt anybody is going to hell for standing against tyranny. Strictly speaking, we should all be burning in hell-fire for much less.
I wouldn't be so sure there. The Bible presents a very nuanced perspective on the use of force, the right to resist an oppressor, and protecting others.
I would imagine that facilitating civil war and possible social collapse to oppose a dictator is not exactly Biblical. Which is the scenario that Trollzyn has presented. While having "peaceful protestors moved down by jackbooted thugs" sounds fairly bad, this also was the sort of thing that did happen quite a bit in the days of the early church.
Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:57 pm
by Lost Memories
Tarsonis wrote:Essentially: "don't give them a reason" coupled with, "we only have to hold out for a little while."
But the world is so vastly different than it was in first century AD. Christianity is no longer oppressed, and in some ways, has become the oppressor.
I think you should re-evalue or think more about that last statement.
Maybe not all christianity is oppressed, which is pretty hard by principle to achieve, given how many and spread out we have become, and given there doesn't exist a global government able to oppress christians around all the world, but christians in various parts around the world are oppressed, or under threat.
The following is the telegram of condolences for the victims of the attack that took place this morning in the Basilica of Notre-Dame in Nice, France, sent by Cardinal Secretary of State Pietro Parolin, on behalf of the Holy Father Francis, to Bishop André Marceau of Nice:
Telegram
His Excellency Bishop André Marceau of Nice
Informed of the savage attack that was perpetrated this morning in a church in Nice, causing the death of several innocent people, His Holiness Pope Francis joins in prayer with the suffering of the families affected, and shares their sorrow. He asks the Lord to bring them comfort and commends the victims to His mercy. As he condemns such violent acts of terror in the strongest possible way, he assures his the Catholic Community of France and all the French people of his closeness, and he calls for unity among them. He entrusts France to the protection of Our Lady, and wholeheartedly imparts his Apostolic Blessing to all those affected by this tragedy.
Cardinal Pietro Parolin Secretary of State of His Holiness
BENI, Congo (Reuters) - Assailants killed at least 18 people and burned down a church in a village in eastern Congo on Wednesday night, a civil rights group and local committee said, blaming fighters from an Islamist militia group operating in the area.
The army confirmed the attack on Baeti village in North Kivu province, around 20 km (12 miles) west of the city of Oicha, but declined to give a death toll.
The Allied Democratic Forces (ADF), a Ugandan armed group active in eastern Congo since the 1990s, has killed more than 1,000 civilians since the start of 2019, according to U.N. figures, despite repeated military campaigns aimed at destroying it.
“We have a provisional death toll of 18 people killed in an atrocious way,” said Kinos Katuho, president of a local civil rights group. “It really creates pain in our hearts, a total panic in the village,” said Masisa Mushogoro, head of a development committee in Baeti. “We don’t know if tomorrow the ADF will come back here again.”
Luminesa wrote:Ben Franklin was excellent in regards to a lot of things in the birth of America. Theology was not one of them.
Okay. You're free to believe that.
Personally if some jerkoff dictator comes into power in the 'States and starts having peaceful protesters mowed down by jackbooted thugs, I'm game to bring the bastard down. If God has a problem with that, well... I guess I'll have to repent but I won't be happy about it.
That's not necessarily what I meant. I think a social construct is something that both the Catechism and Ben Franklin could agree should exist. I guess I read it as being rebellious against organized religion? (Which Franklin was not a fan of.) If I read it wrong in the context of the conversation, I apologize. Franklin was, however, noted more for political and social philosophy than he was for theology.
And uhhhhh partying in France with lots of women and probably giving Washington a headache.
Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:02 pm
by Nihon no Tengoku
I also remember reading that, in his first newspaper, Ben Franklin actually had a fairly popular sex advice column. What a wild guy.
Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:10 pm
by Tarsonis
Nihon no Tengoku wrote:I also remember reading that, in his first newspaper, Ben Franklin actually had a fairly popular sex advice column. What a wild guy.
Believe it or not, Christian Prudishness is a relatively recent thing. I mean there's been some level, but not the puritanical form we've seen post 2nd Great Awakening.
Nihon no Tengoku wrote:I also remember reading that, in his first newspaper, Ben Franklin actually had a fairly popular sex advice column. What a wild guy.
Believe it or not, Christian Prudishness is a relatively recent thing. I mean there's been some level, but not the puritanical form we've seen post 2nd Great Awakening.
That lends the question: is this prudishness more of a Christian thing? Or more of a culturally-specific one?
Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 4:12 pm
by Luminesa
Nihon no Tengoku wrote:I also remember reading that, in his first newspaper, Ben Franklin actually had a fairly popular sex advice column. What a wild guy.
That's about right.
Washington getting a look at it: "Martha, babe, why did we send him to France again?" "He's our best diplomat." "We are so doomed."
Tarsonis wrote: I wouldn't be so sure there. The Bible presents a very nuanced perspective on the use of force, the right to resist an oppressor, and protecting others.
I would imagine that facilitating civil war and possible social collapse to oppose a dictator is not exactly Biblical. Which is the scenario that Trollzyn has presented.
Eh I think you got cause and effect reverse there. You don't facilitate civil war and social collapse to oppose a dictator, those are the natural effect.
While having "peaceful protestors moved down by jackbooted thugs" sounds fairly bad, this also was the sort of thing that did happen quite a bit in the days of the early church.
And I'm pretty sure the Church would freely admit that wasn't a good thing.
The unconstitutional behaviour and juvenile attitude of this woman abusing her office to try and intimidate Christians to desist from imploring women to spare the lives of their unborn babies Is a good example of the oppression of Christians trying to do the Lord's work.
Tarsonis wrote:Essentially: "don't give them a reason" coupled with, "we only have to hold out for a little while."
But the world is so vastly different than it was in first century AD. Christianity is no longer oppressed, and in some ways, has become the oppressor.
I think you should re-evalue or think more about that last statement.
Maybe not all christianity is oppressed, which is pretty hard by principle to achieve, given how many and spread out we have become, and given there doesn't exist a global government able to oppress christians around all the world, but christians in various parts around the world are oppressed, or under threat.
The following is the telegram of condolences for the victims of the attack that took place this morning in the Basilica of Notre-Dame in Nice, France, sent by Cardinal Secretary of State Pietro Parolin, on behalf of the Holy Father Francis, to Bishop André Marceau of Nice:
Telegram
His Excellency Bishop André Marceau of Nice
Informed of the savage attack that was perpetrated this morning in a church in Nice, causing the death of several innocent people, His Holiness Pope Francis joins in prayer with the suffering of the families affected, and shares their sorrow. He asks the Lord to bring them comfort and commends the victims to His mercy. As he condemns such violent acts of terror in the strongest possible way, he assures his the Catholic Community of France and all the French people of his closeness, and he calls for unity among them. He entrusts France to the protection of Our Lady, and wholeheartedly imparts his Apostolic Blessing to all those affected by this tragedy.
Cardinal Pietro Parolin Secretary of State of His Holiness
BENI, Congo (Reuters) - Assailants killed at least 18 people and burned down a church in a village in eastern Congo on Wednesday night, a civil rights group and local committee said, blaming fighters from an Islamist militia group operating in the area.
The army confirmed the attack on Baeti village in North Kivu province, around 20 km (12 miles) west of the city of Oicha, but declined to give a death toll.
The Allied Democratic Forces (ADF), a Ugandan armed group active in eastern Congo since the 1990s, has killed more than 1,000 civilians since the start of 2019, according to U.N. figures, despite repeated military campaigns aimed at destroying it.
“We have a provisional death toll of 18 people killed in an atrocious way,” said Kinos Katuho, president of a local civil rights group. “It really creates pain in our hearts, a total panic in the village,” said Masisa Mushogoro, head of a development committee in Baeti. “We don’t know if tomorrow the ADF will come back here again.”
What an horrible day.
It was an oversight of speech and nothing more. Yes indeed there are places where our brothers and sisters suffer, I didn't mean to imply they weren't. But in most of the world that is not the case. For much of the second millennium the dominant powers of the world were mostly Christian. Even though they've become more secular, they still inherit that legacy.
The completely and utter subjugation the entire church was under in that first century, is very different from the world we have now.
Tarsonis wrote: Believe it or not, Christian Prudishness is a relatively recent thing. I mean there's been some level, but not the puritanical form we've seen post 2nd Great Awakening.
That lends the question: is this prudishness more of a Christian thing? Or more of a culturally-specific one?
The unconstitutional behaviour and juvenile attitude of this woman abusing her office to try and intimidate Christians to desist from imploring women to spare the lives of their unborn babies Is a good example of the oppression of Christians trying to do the Lord's work.
I suppose the reason you didn't upload sound was she didn't actually do that, but if people hear what she actually said, you wouldn't have your narrative? And before you deny it, That channels has no subscribers and 6 views (3 of which are from me trying to check if the sound issue was my side.) You didn't come across it by happenstance. This isn't a place to build your channel.
The unconstitutional behaviour and juvenile attitude of this woman abusing her office to try and intimidate Christians to desist from imploring women to spare the lives of their unborn babies Is a good example of the oppression of Christians trying to do the Lord's work.
I suppose the reason you didn't upload sound was she didn't actually do that, but if people hear what she actually said, you wouldn't have your narrative? And before you deny it, That channels has no subscribers and 6 views (3 of which are from me trying to check if the sound issue was my side.) You didn't come across it by happenstance. This isn't a place to build your channel.
Oh, I thought it was just my computer that didn't have sound on the video.
Tarsonis wrote: I suppose the reason you didn't upload sound was she didn't actually do that, but if people hear what she actually said, you wouldn't have your narrative? And before you deny it, That channels has no subscribers and 6 views (3 of which are from me trying to check if the sound issue was my side.) You didn't come across it by happenstance. This isn't a place to build your channel.
Oh, I thought it was just my computer that didn't have sound on the video.
Nihon no Tengoku wrote:I also remember reading that, in his first newspaper, Ben Franklin actually had a fairly popular sex advice column. What a wild guy.
That's about right.
Washington getting a look at it: "Martha, babe, why did we send him to France again?" "He's our best diplomat." "We are so doomed."
The unconstitutional behaviour and juvenile attitude of this woman abusing her office to try and intimidate Christians to desist from imploring women to spare the lives of their unborn babies Is a good example of the oppression of Christians trying to do the Lord's work.
That doesn't look like oppression to me. That looks like a video of a police woman talking to a person with no sound.
Nihon no Tengoku wrote:Perhaps, but he did write pretty much every foundational New Testament text outside of Revelations and the gospels. If we disregard Paul's writings as not divinely inspired, then we pretty much don't have much of a faith anymore.
I never said dismiss all his writings. But as a human being, Paul is subject to error like all the rest of us. We should listen to what he has to say and consider the weight and importance of his words, absolutely, but we should be willing to analyze and debate what he said and what he meant and be willing to consider that maybe--just maybe--he was wrong. I don't think that's too much to ask.
Somehow I don't see God wanting us to obey people like Hitler, much less Hitler being guided by God.
I wouldn't say Christians should obey Hitler either. I would say that Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Claus von Stauffenberg were doing God's work in resisting Hitler. But on the other hand I don't think the American revolutionaries really had a legitimate reason for rebelling against King George III. Now if they had been willing to do something about the truly serious evils of colonial America like slavery and the oppression of the Native Americans, perhaps they would be worthy of respect. But instead they just started a pointless, sinful rebellion over their petty first world problems and kept on oppressing the enslaved Africans and Native Americans anyway. Britain outlawed slavery thirty years before the United States, and it didn't even take a revolution or a civil war for that to happen.
Trollzyn the Infinite wrote: I never said dismiss all his writings. But as a human being, Paul is subject to error like all the rest of us. We should listen to what he has to say and consider the weight and importance of his words, absolutely, but we should be willing to analyze and debate what he said and what he meant and be willing to consider that maybe--just maybe--he was wrong. I don't think that's too much to ask.
Somehow I don't see God wanting us to obey people like Hitler, much less Hitler being guided by God.
I wouldn't say Christians should obey Hitler either. I would say that Dietrich Bonhoeffer and Claus von Stauffenberg were doing God's work in resisting Hitler. But on the other hand I don't think the American revolutionaries really had a legitimate reason for rebelling against King George III. Now if they had been willing to do something about the truly serious evils of colonial America like slavery and the oppression of the Native Americans, perhaps they would be worthy of respect. But instead they just started a pointless, sinful rebellion over their petty first world problems and kept on oppressing the enslaved Africans and Native Americans anyway. Britain outlawed slavery thirty years before the United States, and it didn't even take a revolution or a civil war for that to happen.
I see what you're going with, but the counter to that is relativity. You might now think they had sufficient cause but thats gonna be bases on your personal bias's. One persons oppression isn't invalidated because someone else was oppressed more.
Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:28 pm
by Salus Maior
Nihon no Tengoku wrote: Also, we are not necessarily commanded to resist sinners. I hope you realize that.
If that were completely true in all situations, I imagine the Islamic Caliphates would have had zero problem extending their rule all the way to Scandinavia.
Christianity itself likely wouldn't have survived in any substantial capacity beyond the Middle Ages.
Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:28 pm
by Lord Dominator
Bienenhalde wrote:Britain outlawed slavery thirty years before the United States, and it didn't even take a revolution or a civil war for that to happen.
Which probably had something to do with around half of the overseas slaveholders that would have lobbied along with the Caribbean slaveholders (to the degree they could, sans direct representation) were no longer part of Britain1
1. O'Shaughnessy, Andrew Jackson, An Empire Divided: The American Revolution and British Caribbean, 2000. idk on which pages specifically
Nihon no Tengoku wrote: Also, we are not necessarily commanded to resist sinners. I hope you realize that.
If that were completely true in all situations, I imagine the Islamic Caliphates would have had zero problem extending their rule all the way to Scandinavia.
Christianity itself likely wouldn't have survived in any substantial capacity beyond the Middle Ages.
This is why the Just War Doctrine exists. But in the case that Trollyzstan is bringing up, I'd maintain it's germane
Nihon no Tengoku wrote:I would imagine that facilitating civil war and possible social collapse to oppose a dictator is not exactly Biblical. Which is the scenario that Trollzyn has presented.
Eh I think you got cause and effect reverse there. You don't facilitate civil war and social collapse to oppose a dictator, those are the natural effect.
While having "peaceful protestors moved down by jackbooted thugs" sounds fairly bad, this also was the sort of thing that did happen quite a bit in the days of the early church.
And I'm pretty sure the Church would freely admit that wasn't a good thing.
Whether it's a good thing or not is not particularly relevant to whether we should intervene. And so far, though I agree that there is some shakiness depending on the specific situation, I see nothing indicating that it is scripturally mandated that we fight against this hypothetical dictatorship.
Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 5:51 pm
by New Steuben
I'm a ethnically Germanic American
I was born a Roman Catholic, became an athiest then agnostic, now I'm "soul searching" and found Asatru.
What do Christians think about the rise of ancient euro faiths, like in Greece and Iceland?
Posted: Thu Oct 29, 2020 3:53 pm
