NATION

PASSWORD

Christian Discussion Thread XI: Anicetus’ Revenge

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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What is your denomination?

Roman Catholic
155
43%
Eastern Orthodox
22
6%
Non-Chalcedonian (Oriental Orthodox, Church of the East, etc.)
1
0%
Anglican/Episcopalian
21
6%
Lutheran or Reformed (including Calvinist, Presbyterian, etc.)
41
11%
Methodist
6
2%
Baptist
35
10%
Other Evangelical Protestant (Pentecostal, Charismatic, etc.)
27
7%
Restorationist (LDS Movement, Jehovah's Witness, etc.)
14
4%
Other Christian
42
12%
 
Total votes : 364

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Dylar
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Postby Dylar » Sat Jul 11, 2020 12:24 pm

Rosmana wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:
Traditionally the entire liturgy is sung. The Novus Ordo changed a lot, but some churches still keep it real.

Yes but was and is not folk song, that is my point, while most modern church songs sound like they belong in a kindergarten.

And I just HATE my singing voice.

Just chant it then
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State of Turelisa wrote:I think this thread should be renamed the Catholic Discussion Thread. :eyebrow:


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Salus Maior
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Postby Salus Maior » Sat Jul 11, 2020 12:44 pm

Rosmana wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:
Traditionally the entire liturgy is sung. The Novus Ordo changed a lot, but some churches still keep it real.

Yes but was and is not folk song, that is my point, while most modern church songs sound like they belong in a kindergarten.

And I just HATE my singing voice.


I'm not a very good singer either. But usually you don't really hear it when everyone's chanting or singing hymns.
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Tarsonis
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Postby Tarsonis » Sat Jul 11, 2020 2:30 pm

Salus Maior wrote:
Rosmana wrote:Yes but was and is not folk song, that is my point, while most modern church songs sound like they belong in a kindergarten.

And I just HATE my singing voice.


I'm not a very good singer either. But usually you don't really hear it when everyone's chanting or singing hymns.


everyone hates the sound of their own voice.
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Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
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Diopolis
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Postby Diopolis » Sat Jul 11, 2020 3:25 pm

Tarsonis wrote:
Rosmana wrote:I will just pray 3 times then, takes a while longer but its worth it, mass is a holy sacrament, not a folk concert. :)

Some songs are ok, but the modern ones have to go, and I do not see why I have to sing anyhow, we have a choir after all.


Traditionally the entire liturgy is sung. The Novus Ordo changed a lot, but some churches still keep it real.

In the Latin right, low mass was the dominant use of the mass for close to 1,000 years before the novus ordo came onto the scene. While solemn high(or more technically a pontifical solemn) mass is ideal and normative, in practice they're much, much less common than low mass for logistical reasons.
Sung masses didn't even exist until the late 18th century at the very earliest, and weren't officially recognized until the Victorian era. A pre-Vatican II parish church might have had a sung mass every Sunday, but not necessarily- smaller churches that couldn't field the necessary choir(remember that it wasn't until after VII that women were allowed to sing the propers of the mass), and those catering to certain ethnic backgrounds usually didn't, and it would have been highly exceptional for a "normal" parish(as opposed to a monastery with an attached parish, Cathedral parish, etc) to have a solemn mass outside of a handful of major feasts(usually in Holy Week, with even that not guaranteed).
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Rosmana
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Postby Rosmana » Sun Jul 12, 2020 4:08 am

Tarsonis wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
I'm not a very good singer either. But usually you don't really hear it when everyone's chanting or singing hymns.


everyone hates the sound of their own voice.

I do, that is for sure.
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Lost Memories
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Postby Lost Memories » Sun Jul 12, 2020 6:19 am

Australian rePublic wrote:Considering that there are millions of people who pray to God daily, why should we believe that prayers aren't in vein? How do we know that prayer isn't an excersize in futility?

Tarsonis wrote:
Salus Maior wrote:
The lottery isn't omnipotent and omnipresent.


True, but billions of prayers? That's a lot of competing interests. I'm praying I get a call back for an interview for a teaching position. How many others are praying for the exact same thing, the exact same position?

I don't think praying is in vain, obviously, but we should at least be realistic about how the answer you're gonna get most often is going to be "no."

Isn't asking stuff during prayer more of a pagan leftover? That isn't much different from people making a sacrifice on an altar to ask the gods™ for good harvest. (or generally, good luck)

Shouldn't (christian) prayer be, before anything, an act of communion with God?
Which can take place in a number of ways: from giving thanks for anything good which did happen (which requires the effort to search for the good in things), to sharing hopes and struggles (where "sharing", is different from "offloading on others").
But begging stuff, or expecting compensation for the time spent on praying, or said more bluntly, treating God as a wish fairy, or a genie, isn't what communion is, nor what christian prayes is for.


That is, i'm highly skeptical of prayer being used as a delivery service from heaven.
More than the answer being "no" if it's unrealistic, I think the matter is more about: God gives aid and support to human actions, but if the person doesn't act, there is nothing to get support on, so nothing happens, the fault isn't on God, but on human idleness.
http://www.politicaltest.net/test/result/222881/
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"The whole is something else than the sum of its parts" -Kurt Koffka

A fox tried to reach some grapes hanging high on the vine but was unable to.
As he went away, the fox remarked 'Oh, you aren't even ripe yet!'
As such are people who speak disparagingly of things that they cannot attain.
-The Fox and the Grapes

"Dictionaries don't decide what words mean. Prescriptivism is the ultimate form of elitism." -United Muscovite Nations
or subtle illiteracy, or lazy sidetracking. Just fucking follow the context.

Using dictionary definitions or wikipedia to support a claim, isn't smart, but only extra stupid.
As it shows you are too ignorant to know those stuff without help.

We're all a bit stupid and ignorant, just be humble about it.

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Rosmana
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Postby Rosmana » Sun Jul 12, 2020 7:02 am

Salus Maior wrote:
Rosmana wrote:Yes but was and is not folk song, that is my point, while most modern church songs sound like they belong in a kindergarten.

And I just HATE my singing voice.


I'm not a very good singer either. But usually you don't really hear it when everyone's chanting or singing hymns.

When you are the only guys that is very difficult NOT to hear. :D
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Tarsonis
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Postby Tarsonis » Sun Jul 12, 2020 7:20 am

Lost Memories wrote:
Australian rePublic wrote:Considering that there are millions of people who pray to God daily, why should we believe that prayers aren't in vein? How do we know that prayer isn't an excersize in futility?

Tarsonis wrote:
True, but billions of prayers? That's a lot of competing interests. I'm praying I get a call back for an interview for a teaching position. How many others are praying for the exact same thing, the exact same position?

I don't think praying is in vain, obviously, but we should at least be realistic about how the answer you're gonna get most often is going to be "no."

Isn't asking stuff during prayer more of a pagan leftover? That isn't much different from people making a sacrifice on an altar to ask the gods™ for good harvest. (or generally, good luck)

Shouldn't (christian) prayer be, before anything, an act of communion with God?
Which can take place in a number of ways: from giving thanks for anything good which did happen (which requires the effort to search for the good in things), to sharing hopes and struggles (where "sharing", is different from "offloading on others").
But begging stuff, or expecting compensation for the time spent on praying, or said more bluntly, treating God as a wish fairy, or a genie, isn't what communion is, nor what christian prayes is for.


That is, i'm highly skeptical of prayer being used as a delivery service from heaven.
More than the answer being "no" if it's unrealistic, I think the matter is more about: God gives aid and support to human actions, but if the person doesn't act, there is nothing to get support on, so nothing happens, the fault isn't on God, but on human idleness.



13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.
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Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
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Lost Memories
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Postby Lost Memories » Sun Jul 12, 2020 10:49 am

Tarsonis wrote:
Lost Memories wrote:
Isn't asking stuff during prayer more of a pagan leftover? That isn't much different from people making a sacrifice on an altar to ask the gods™ for good harvest. (or generally, good luck)

Shouldn't (christian) prayer be, before anything, an act of communion with God?
Which can take place in a number of ways: from giving thanks for anything good which did happen (which requires the effort to search for the good in things), to sharing hopes and struggles (where "sharing", is different from "offloading on others").
But begging stuff, or expecting compensation for the time spent on praying, or said more bluntly, treating God as a wish fairy, or a genie, isn't what communion is, nor what christian prayes is for.


That is, i'm highly skeptical of prayer being used as a delivery service from heaven.
More than the answer being "no" if it's unrealistic, I think the matter is more about: God gives aid and support to human actions, but if the person doesn't act, there is nothing to get support on, so nothing happens, the fault isn't on God, but on human idleness.



13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Well, i draw my understanding from the holy masses i did attend to, you are the scholar of scriptures (but that's just one part of being a theologian, or is it not?)

So what has it been the common understanding of that specific verse, into its wider context of Jesus talking about the time he was going to go back to the father?
John 14:1-14 New International Version (NIV)
14 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God[a]; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”

5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.

12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

[:15-31]

Has it been a common occurrence in the past to use that verse to justify the view of prayer as a wish granting act? Any specific cases of such?

What about the definition of prayer (either by liturgy or catechism) and how prayer has been explained/described by past notable figures?
http://www.politicaltest.net/test/result/222881/
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"The whole is something else than the sum of its parts" -Kurt Koffka

A fox tried to reach some grapes hanging high on the vine but was unable to.
As he went away, the fox remarked 'Oh, you aren't even ripe yet!'
As such are people who speak disparagingly of things that they cannot attain.
-The Fox and the Grapes

"Dictionaries don't decide what words mean. Prescriptivism is the ultimate form of elitism." -United Muscovite Nations
or subtle illiteracy, or lazy sidetracking. Just fucking follow the context.

Using dictionary definitions or wikipedia to support a claim, isn't smart, but only extra stupid.
As it shows you are too ignorant to know those stuff without help.

We're all a bit stupid and ignorant, just be humble about it.

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Tarsonis
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Postby Tarsonis » Sun Jul 12, 2020 1:18 pm

Lost Memories wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:

13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

Well, i draw my understanding from the holy masses i did attend to, you are the scholar of scriptures (but that's just one part of being a theologian, or is it not?)

So what has it been the common understanding of that specific verse, into its wider context of Jesus talking about the time he was going to go back to the father?
John 14:1-14 New International Version (NIV)
14 “Do not let your hearts be troubled. You believe in God[a]; believe also in me. 2 My Father’s house has many rooms; if that were not so, would I have told you that I am going there to prepare a place for you? 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. 4 You know the way to the place where I am going.”

5 Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”

6 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 7 If you really know me, you will know[b] my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

8 Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”

9 Jesus answered: “Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work. 11 Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.

12 Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.

[:15-31]

Has it been a common occurrence in the past to use that verse to justify the view of prayer as a wish granting act? Any specific cases of such?

What about the definition of prayer (either by liturgy or catechism) and how prayer has been explained/described by past notable figures?


The point was asking God for things is not a "pagan left over." While prayer is communion as you said, let's not forget that communion is a two way street. Humanity prays to God, and God confers blessings upon humanity. Scripture and the Mass are rife with this concept. Hell even the fundamental precept of our faith is predicated on the fact that "God will provide".

Yes we are to pray in all we do a la St. Paul, but Christ makes it clear that God is not an aloof God that expects blind obedience from his followers, while ignoring their needs.

"The Lord will Provide." Christ does not forbid us from asking. Rather says God already knows what we're going to ask for before we ask it, so it is better for to pray in the ritualistic way or asking for our daily bread and to forgive us our sins.
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Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

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Lost Memories
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Postby Lost Memories » Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:03 am

Hmm, i guess i should have specified? In:
Isn't asking stuff during prayer more of a pagan leftover?
For "stuff" or "things" i meant: trivial, material, ephemeral, and or not virtuous things.

Obviously anyone can pray to ask to have more patience, to receive support in hardships, or to receive other spiritual gifts, which are proper things to ask in prayer. Those could be said to be "things" too, but not the ones i was talking about when comparing to pagan prayers.

Hell even the fundamental precept of our faith is predicated on the fact that "God will provide"

The point i was going by was, provide "what" ?
Does God provide a winning lottery ticket? That's not.
Does God provide blessings to enrich the spirit? That's the correct one.

Yes we are to pray in all we do a la St. Paul, but Christ makes it clear that God is not an aloof God that expects blind obedience from his followers, while ignoring their needs.

Yep, once again, what is a need?
Is it something one "wants" and prays to get? Or is it something God knows the person needs?

Let's stretch it a bit, God may even know that one specific person does indeed "need" to win the lottery, but anyone else who doesn't need it, and still asks for it in prayer, is asking something they don't need, so God will not answer them.


To go back to your previous idea of some requests to be impossible to fulfil because of conflicting or competing interests, which was one of the things which miffled me. (while it does make sense on a purely logical basis)
There is no competing interest in virtue and holiness. If something generates a conflict of interests, maybe it isn't virtuous or holy to start with, so why someone is asking unvirtuous and unholy things in prayer, and expecting to be provided?
God doesn't provide unvirtuous and unholy things. So asking those is always going to be a failure. (and if those succeed, it's a matter of luck, not to be confused with God's providence)

Probably i'm being too blunt, sorry if i come off too forceful.

Though, while applying a bit of self-criticism, i guess i'm too focused on the spiritual side of providence, while there is indeed also a more material side, but that side can take place only when there are people who let God act through them(charity). (a poor person prays for bread, and God provides them by a charitable person who brings the bread)
Also, historically in the old testament there are some cases where God did aid Israel or individuals in things like: victory in war or personal success, where there were indeed competing interests, but i would argue that's a bygone time, there is no longer a elected nation among unelected nations, or elected individuals among unelected individuals, so there can no longer be competing interests aided by God.
Last edited by Lost Memories on Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:13 am, edited 1 time in total.
http://www.politicaltest.net/test/result/222881/
m badges: 1 m1

"The whole is something else than the sum of its parts" -Kurt Koffka

A fox tried to reach some grapes hanging high on the vine but was unable to.
As he went away, the fox remarked 'Oh, you aren't even ripe yet!'
As such are people who speak disparagingly of things that they cannot attain.
-The Fox and the Grapes

"Dictionaries don't decide what words mean. Prescriptivism is the ultimate form of elitism." -United Muscovite Nations
or subtle illiteracy, or lazy sidetracking. Just fucking follow the context.

Using dictionary definitions or wikipedia to support a claim, isn't smart, but only extra stupid.
As it shows you are too ignorant to know those stuff without help.

We're all a bit stupid and ignorant, just be humble about it.

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Tarsonis
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Postby Tarsonis » Mon Jul 13, 2020 10:29 am

Lost Memories wrote:Hmm, i guess i should have specified? In:
Isn't asking stuff during prayer more of a pagan leftover?
For "stuff" or "things" i meant: trivial, material, ephemeral, and or not virtuous things.

Obviously anyone can pray to ask to have more patience, to receive support in hardships, or to receive other spiritual gifts, which are proper things to ask in prayer. Those could be said to be "things" too, but not the ones i was talking about when comparing to pagan prayers.

Now we debate what's proper though? What about getting that job you want? or being elevated from poverty through the lottery? Or even for help finding your car keys because you're late for work? Why would any of these be improper?

Forgive me, but your line here comes off more chauvinistic than pious.

Hell even the fundamental precept of our faith is predicated on the fact that "God will provide"

The point i was going by was, provide "what" ?
Does God provide a winning lottery ticket? That's not.
Does God provide blessings to enrich the spirit? That's the correct one.

Why wouldn't God provide a winning lottery ticket though? Are we to assume that everyone who wins just gets lucky and God doesn't interfere at all?

Yes we are to pray in all we do a la St. Paul, but Christ makes it clear that God is not an aloof God that expects blind obedience from his followers, while ignoring their needs.

Yep, once again, what is a need?
Is it something one "wants" and prays to get? Or is it something God knows the person needs?


You'd be surprised how, to the prayer, want and need overlap. This is one reason why the answer will most often be no, because humans often don't really know what they need. It doesn't make asking shameful however.

Let's stretch it a bit, God may even know that one specific person does indeed "need" to win the lottery, but anyone else who doesn't need it, and still asks for it in prayer, is asking something they don't need, so God will not answer them.


As I said, doesn't make the asking shameful though. We still ask, and trust God's discretion. God still answers, it's just that the answer is more often than not, no.


To go back to your previous idea of some requests to be impossible to fulfil because of conflicting or competing interests, which was one of the things which miffled me. (while it does make sense on a purely logical basis)
There is no competing interest in virtue and holiness. If something generates a conflict of interests, maybe it isn't virtuous or holy to start with, so why someone is asking unvirtuous and unholy things in prayer, and expecting to be provided?


Oh? So hypothetically let's say an 8 year old girl is dying of catastrophic heart failure. There's a surgery option, but it's risky at best. So you pray for a miracle. God heals the child, she no longer needs surgery. Now because she doesn't need surgery, the anesthesiologist who was on call for the surgery now leaves early. She's struck and killed by a pick up running a red light, where she wouldn't have been if the surgery were to go on as scheduled.


Praying for healing is of course virtuous, but that healing caused the death of another. While we don't have the perception necessary to assess all those possible outcomes (you had no way of knowing this would happen, obviously) God does. Even virtue and holiness can cause competing interests.



God doesn't provide unvirtuous and unholy things. So asking those is always going to be a failure. (and if those succeed, it's a matter of luck, not to be confused with God's providence)


Of course not, but don't make the mistake of affirming the consequent, and assuming that if God doesn't provide, it means it wasn't virtuous.

Probably i'm being too blunt, sorry if i come off too forceful.

Though, while applying a bit of self-criticism, i guess i'm too focused on the spiritual side of providence, while there is indeed also a more material side, but that side can take place only when there are people who let God act through them(charity). (a poor person prays for bread, and God provides them by a charitable person who brings the bread)

Or a jar of flower that never runs empty.

Also, historically in the old testament there are some cases where God did aid Israel or individuals in things like: victory in war or personal success, where there were indeed competing interests, but i would argue that's a bygone time, there is no longer a elected nation among unelected nations, or elected individuals among unelected individuals, so there can no longer be competing interests aided by God.

And I'd say there's no evidence to suggest that. Sure we don't live in a time with prophets or "chosen peoples." But that doesn't mean God doesn't act, or take sides. Sure God probably doesn't take sides in your local hockey game, but anytime God intercedes, God is picking the recipients needs. Those needs may or may not conflict with other's needs. Thats just reality, doesn't make their needs more or less virtuous.
Proud NS Keyboard Warrior since 2005.
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

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Lost Memories
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Postby Lost Memories » Mon Jul 13, 2020 1:47 pm

This is one reason why the answer will most often be no, because humans often don't really know what they need.

This could be a good summary of what i was saying.

Would it be wrong to assume you did take the "pagan" part in:
Isn't asking (trivial, material, ephemeral) stuff during prayer more of a pagan leftover?
As to mean something ashaming?
If that's the case, then that wasn't my intention, for me "pagan" in that context just meant "not christian", it's a purely descriptive term, no shame or other judgements involved (aside that obviously, christians ought to be christian, and not pagan)
When i first wrote that question, i was wondering about it, more from an historical perspective. But given we can't fully agree on what "christian prayer" stands for, that question may have been too early.

...Or the question could be rephrased from a different point of view:
Is there a difference between pagan prayers and christian prayers? If yes, what are those differences? In which way christian prayers are different?




On other points:
Praying for healing is of course virtuous, but that healing caused the death of another. While we don't have the perception necessary to assess all those possible outcomes (you had no way of knowing this would happen, obviously) God does. Even virtue and holiness can cause competing interests.

I see, you were meaning competing interests on a level only God can understand (if so, it has little relevance to the person praying, as they can't know), while i was understanding competing interests on a more earthly level (where it's possible to know, if what we're asking would be coming in spite of others).
The example of every person playing the lottery winning because they prayed for it, was pretty earthly. I'll be blunt once again, I think most people asking stuff like winning the lottery in prayer are not very serious in their prayer, or at best they are misled. On the assumption most of them are just being greedy, and asking God to play along their greed. But maybe the lottery was a bad example to start with, as i share the previously stated opinion that it's just a scam, and it most often plays into the weaknesses of the people falling into it.

As for:
There is no competing interest in virtue and holiness.
I should have been more specific there too. Or rather, i was very literal there.
If a person becomes more full of fortitude, who's going to be deprived by that?
If a person becomes more full of piety, who's going to be deprived by that?
And so on, for all other virtues and holy gifts God can grant.

To flip around that statement in a way you could more likely agree with:
There are better chances to get a positive answer from a prayer of petition, if what is being asked is something holy.
There are better chances to get a positive answer from a prayer of petition, if what is being asked is something which doesn't deprive others in its fulfilment.
Or, something not involving competing interests, at least the cases we can see for ourselves. Rather than the opposite, of asking something, which can clearly be seen even from human eyes, as conflicting.




Sure God probably doesn't take sides in your local hockey game, but anytime God intercedes, God is picking the recipients needs. Those needs may or may not conflict with other's needs. Thats just reality, doesn't make their needs more or less virtuous.

While we seem to agree on people sometimes not knowing what they need, and as such, them asking in prayer things they don't need.
We still seem to have different ideas on what a need is.

In my understanding of needs (as God would see them), they don't cause competition, cause they are things which are added to the world without removing from it, as those needs are not of the world.

Ironically, while your conception of conflicting interests did seem to take place on a Godly level of perception, and your conception of "needs" instead seems to be more broad, as to include also earthly needs.
I'm doing the reverse, taking "conflicting interests" on an earthly level, and seeing "needs" on a holy (Godly) level. I'm using the more narrow definition of both terms.

Would this be correct on your part? We would have been running on parallel lines.
You: From a godly point of view, every need, earthly and holy, causes competing interests.
Me: Holy needs don't cause earthly competing interests.
Last edited by Lost Memories on Mon Jul 13, 2020 2:19 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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As he went away, the fox remarked 'Oh, you aren't even ripe yet!'
As such are people who speak disparagingly of things that they cannot attain.
-The Fox and the Grapes

"Dictionaries don't decide what words mean. Prescriptivism is the ultimate form of elitism." -United Muscovite Nations
or subtle illiteracy, or lazy sidetracking. Just fucking follow the context.

Using dictionary definitions or wikipedia to support a claim, isn't smart, but only extra stupid.
As it shows you are too ignorant to know those stuff without help.

We're all a bit stupid and ignorant, just be humble about it.

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Postby Tarsonis » Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:44 pm

Lost Memories wrote:
This is one reason why the answer will most often be no, because humans often don't really know what they need.

This could be a good summary of what i was saying.

Would it be wrong to assume you did take the "pagan" part in:
Isn't asking (trivial, material, ephemeral) stuff during prayer more of a pagan leftover?
As to mean something ashaming?
If that's the case, then that wasn't my intention, for me "pagan" in that context just meant "not christian", it's a purely descriptive term, no shame or other judgements involved (aside that obviously, christians ought to be christian, and not pagan)
When i first wrote that question, i was wondering about it, more from an historical perspective. But given we can't fully agree on what "christian prayer" stands for, that question may have been too early.


And I'd say not, as Judaism had its own sacrificial prayer system as well, including prayers of attainment. While Judaism, technically would meet the definition of pagan as pagan merely means "regional" and Judaism was a local tribal religion, (at least while the temple stood), ny your definition it wouldn't as Judaism was essentially proto-Christianity.

...Or the question could be rephrased from a different point of view:
Is there a difference between pagan prayers and christian prayers? If yes, what are those differences? In which way christian prayers are different?


Christian (and by extention Jewish and Islamic) prayers actually have a person on the receiving end.




On other points:
Praying for healing is of course virtuous, but that healing caused the death of another. While we don't have the perception necessary to assess all those possible outcomes (you had no way of knowing this would happen, obviously) God does. Even virtue and holiness can cause competing interests.

I see, you were meaning competing interests on a level only God can understand (if so, it has little relevance to the person praying, as they can't know), while i was understanding competing interests on a more earthly level (where it's possible to know, if what we're asking would be coming in spite of others).


I mean it's both really. There's untold levels of complexity when it comes to competing interests. It could be as high and complex as that example or take it back to my job example. I wanted a particular job but I wasn't the only candidate. Is it wrong for us to pray to God to get the job when there's other people I bare no ill will towards vying for the same job? I don't really think so. We all prayed for the job, and whoever got it got it. (wasn't me) Doesnt mean it was unvirtuous for me to ask.

The example of every person playing the lottery winning because they prayed for it, was pretty earthly. I'll be blunt once again, I think most people asking stuff like winning the lottery in prayer are not very serious in their prayer, or at best they are misled. On the assumption most of them are just being greedy, and asking God to play along their greed. But maybe the lottery was a bad example to start with, as i share the previously stated opinion that it's just a scam, and it most often plays into the weaknesses of the people falling into it.


The point was its an example where many people are competing for a single prize. God can't award that prize to everyone. I mean not really.. He could but then people would only get 50 cents and thered be an investigation as to how everyone got not only the same number but the same winning numbers. Any one who really needed to win, wouldnt have benefited.

As for:
There is no competing interest in virtue and holiness.
I should have been more specific there too. Or rather, i was very literal there.
If a person becomes more full of fortitude, who's going to be deprived by that?
If a person becomes more full of piety, who's going to be deprived by that?
And so on, for all other virtues and holy gifts God can grant.

To flip around that statement in a way you could more likely agree with:
There are better chances to get a positive answer from a prayer of petition, if what is being asked is something holy.
There are better chances to get a positive answer from a prayer of petition, if what is being asked is something which doesn't deprive others in its fulfilment.
Or, something not involving competing interests, at least the cases we can see for ourselves. Rather than the opposite, of asking something, which can clearly be seen even from human eyes, as conflicting.


Sure, you're more likely to receive things that don't have an inherent competitive interest in them, but it doesn't make praying for the competitive thing unvirtuous. That's my point.



Sure God probably doesn't take sides in your local hockey game, but anytime God intercedes, God is picking the recipients needs. Those needs may or may not conflict with other's needs. Thats just reality, doesn't make their needs more or less virtuous.

While we seem to agree on people sometimes not knowing what they need, and as such, them asking in prayer things they don't need.
We still seem to have different ideas on what a need is.

In my understanding of needs (as God would see them), they don't cause competition, cause they are things which are added to the world without removing from it, as those needs are not of the world.


Food is a need, and can be quite a competitive one at that.

Ironically, while your conception of conflicting interests did seem to take place on a Godly level of perception, and your conception of "needs" instead seems to be more broad, as to include also earthly needs.
I'm doing the reverse, taking "conflicting interests" on an earthly level, and seeing "needs" on a holy (Godly) level. I'm using the more narrow definition of both terms.

And id say your definitions are unduly narrow. Humans have needs both earthly and spiritual. And can have virtuous competing interests at both the earthly and godly level.

Would this be correct on your part? We would have been running on parallel lines.
You: From a godly point of view, every need, earthly and holy, causes competing interests.
Me: Holy needs don't cause earthly competing interests.

I'd say that's an accurate assessment of our stances.
Last edited by Tarsonis on Mon Jul 13, 2020 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Lost Memories » Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:42 am

Tarsonis wrote:
Is there a difference between pagan prayers and christian prayers? If yes, what are those differences? In which way christian prayers are different?


Christian (and by extention Jewish and Islamic) prayers actually have a person on the receiving end.

I don't get that, as much as the question was already sort of vague (as it is anything regarding paganism)
Do prayers outside christianity not ask things for the person praying? Or were you meaning something specific with that "actually" ?
http://www.politicaltest.net/test/result/222881/
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"The whole is something else than the sum of its parts" -Kurt Koffka

A fox tried to reach some grapes hanging high on the vine but was unable to.
As he went away, the fox remarked 'Oh, you aren't even ripe yet!'
As such are people who speak disparagingly of things that they cannot attain.
-The Fox and the Grapes

"Dictionaries don't decide what words mean. Prescriptivism is the ultimate form of elitism." -United Muscovite Nations
or subtle illiteracy, or lazy sidetracking. Just fucking follow the context.

Using dictionary definitions or wikipedia to support a claim, isn't smart, but only extra stupid.
As it shows you are too ignorant to know those stuff without help.

We're all a bit stupid and ignorant, just be humble about it.

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Postby Tarsonis » Tue Jul 14, 2020 9:52 am

Lost Memories wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:
Christian (and by extention Jewish and Islamic) prayers actually have a person on the receiving end.

I don't get that, as much as the question was already sort of vague (as it is anything regarding paganism)
Do prayers outside christianity not ask things for the person praying? Or were you meaning something specific with that "actually" ?


If you're talking about subject matter then no they don't differ that much. They all have prayers of petition. intercession. and worship.
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Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
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Lost Memories
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Postby Lost Memories » Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:40 pm

Yeah, i still don't understand your first answer then. What were you meaning with:
Christian (and by extention Jewish and Islamic) prayers actually have a person on the receiving end.
as opposed to pagan prayers? Where is the difference, if any?

Asked in reverse then, in which way pagan prayers are different from christian prayers?
(meant as, differences in the way of praying, and not the obvious: they don't pray to God)


If i was to answer the same question, i would have gone with the difference being that pagan prayers of petition did allow requests of egoistical and/or antagonistic nature and as such were used, while the same is discouraged and wouldn't work anyway in christian prayers, whereas instead in christianity prayer highlights sanctification.
http://www.politicaltest.net/test/result/222881/
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"The whole is something else than the sum of its parts" -Kurt Koffka

A fox tried to reach some grapes hanging high on the vine but was unable to.
As he went away, the fox remarked 'Oh, you aren't even ripe yet!'
As such are people who speak disparagingly of things that they cannot attain.
-The Fox and the Grapes

"Dictionaries don't decide what words mean. Prescriptivism is the ultimate form of elitism." -United Muscovite Nations
or subtle illiteracy, or lazy sidetracking. Just fucking follow the context.

Using dictionary definitions or wikipedia to support a claim, isn't smart, but only extra stupid.
As it shows you are too ignorant to know those stuff without help.

We're all a bit stupid and ignorant, just be humble about it.

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Postby Tarsonis » Tue Jul 14, 2020 1:53 pm

Lost Memories wrote:Yeah, i still don't understand your first answer then. What were you meaning with:
Christian (and by extention Jewish and Islamic) prayers actually have a person on the receiving end.
as opposed to pagan prayers? Where is the difference, if any?

Asked in reverse then, in which way pagan prayers are different from christian prayers?
(meant as, differences in the way of praying, and not the obvious: they don't pray to God)


If i was to answer the same question, i would have gone with the difference being that pagan prayers of petition did allow requests of egoistical and/or antagonistic nature and as such were used, while the same is discouraged and wouldn't work anyway in christian prayers, whereas instead in christianity prayer highlights sanctification.


I really don't understand your question. We have similar prayer customs though what is prayed for will vary according to each faith. I'm really not sure what you're driving at here.
Proud NS Keyboard Warrior since 2005.
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

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Postby Luminesa » Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:20 pm

Lost Memories wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:
Christian (and by extention Jewish and Islamic) prayers actually have a person on the receiving end.

I don't get that, as much as the question was already sort of vague (as it is anything regarding paganism)
Do prayers outside christianity not ask things for the person praying? Or were you meaning something specific with that "actually" ?

Jesus gives a good explanation in the Gospel, during the Sermon on the Mount:
“And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. 8“So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.

9“Pray, then, in this way:
‘Our Father who is in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.

10‘Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.

11‘Give us this day our daily bread.

12‘And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.

13‘And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. [For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.’]
14“For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15“But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.
Pagan prayers, according to Jesus, are very rote and only focused on words. The Pagans would pray to a lot of gods, all for different things, but their prayers had to be perfect and done in a specific way every time. They were focused more on ceremonies than on the heart. Now, we have formulas in the Christian religion, but the difference is that Jesus reminds us here that the most important thing about prayer is what's in our hearts. The Greek gods did not care what was in the heart-they lived to be worshiped and did not care about the sins or virtues of humans (unless they were offended, then you got the Trojan War). The Christian God, however, is focused on our sins and virtues, and wants us to draw close to Him as He draws close to us.
Last edited by Luminesa on Tue Jul 14, 2020 5:20 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Neanderthaland » Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:42 pm

Luminesa wrote:
Lost Memories wrote:I don't get that, as much as the question was already sort of vague (as it is anything regarding paganism)
Do prayers outside christianity not ask things for the person praying? Or were you meaning something specific with that "actually" ?

Jesus gives a good explanation in the Gospel, during the Sermon on the Mount:
“And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. 8“So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.

9“Pray, then, in this way:
‘Our Father who is in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.

10‘Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.

11‘Give us this day our daily bread.

12‘And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.

13‘And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. [For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.’]
14“For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15“But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.
Pagan prayers, according to Jesus, are very rote and only focused on words. The Pagans would pray to a lot of gods, all for different things, but their prayers had to be perfect and done in a specific way every time. They were focused more on ceremonies than on the heart. Now, we have formulas in the Christian religion, but the difference is that Jesus reminds us here that the most important thing about prayer is what's in our hearts. The Greek gods did not care what was in the heart-they lived to be worshiped and did not care about the sins or virtues of humans (unless they were offended, then you got the Trojan War). The Christian God, however, is focused on our sins and virtues, and wants us to draw close to Him as He draws close to us.

The irony being that there are perhaps no Christian prayers that are more often unthinkingly recited as rote than that one. A shame.
Last edited by Neanderthaland on Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Tarsonis
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Postby Tarsonis » Tue Jul 14, 2020 8:46 pm

Neanderthaland wrote:
Luminesa wrote:Jesus gives a good explanation in the Gospel, during the Sermon on the Mount:
“And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. 8“So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.

9“Pray, then, in this way:
‘Our Father who is in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.

10‘Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.

11‘Give us this day our daily bread.

12‘And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.

13‘And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. [For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.’]
14“For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15“But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.
Pagan prayers, according to Jesus, are very rote and only focused on words. The Pagans would pray to a lot of gods, all for different things, but their prayers had to be perfect and done in a specific way every time. They were focused more on ceremonies than on the heart. Now, we have formulas in the Christian religion, but the difference is that Jesus reminds us here that the most important thing about prayer is what's in our hearts. The Greek gods did not care what was in the heart-they lived to be worshiped and did not care about the sins or virtues of humans (unless they were offended, then you got the Trojan War). The Christian God, however, is focused on our sins and virtues, and wants us to draw close to Him as He draws close to us.

The irony being that there are perhaps no Christian prayers that are more often unthinkingly recited as rote than that one. A shame.


I can't speak for protestants but the Church just had a caniption because Papa Franki wanted to slightly change the wording of the English version. To say it's unthinkingly recited would be quite far from the truth.
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Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
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Lost Memories
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Postby Lost Memories » Wed Jul 15, 2020 1:01 am

Luminesa wrote:
Tarsonis wrote:Christian (and by extention Jewish and Islamic) prayers actually have a person on the receiving end.


Jesus gives a good explanation in the Gospel, during the Sermon on the Mount:
“And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. 8“So do not be like them; for your Father knows what you need before you ask Him.

9“Pray, then, in this way:
‘Our Father who is in heaven,
Hallowed be Your name.

10‘Your kingdom come.
Your will be done,
On earth as it is in heaven.

11‘Give us this day our daily bread.

12‘And forgive us our debts, as we also have forgiven our debtors.

13‘And do not lead us into temptation, but deliver us from evil. [For Yours is the kingdom and the power and the glory forever. Amen.’]
14“For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15“But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.
Pagan prayers, according to Jesus, are very rote and only focused on words. The Pagans would pray to a lot of gods, all for different things, but their prayers had to be perfect and done in a specific way every time. They were focused more on ceremonies than on the heart. Now, we have formulas in the Christian religion, but the difference is that Jesus reminds us here that the most important thing about prayer is what's in our hearts. The Greek gods did not care what was in the heart-they lived to be worshiped and did not care about the sins or virtues of humans (unless they were offended, then you got the Trojan War). The Christian God, however, is focused on our sins and virtues, and wants us to draw close to Him as He draws close to us.

That makes it more clear, thanks.

A too formulatic or mechanical prayer, too focused on words alone, makes it look more like a magic spell than a prayer, where the gods involved, in any, are just a component of the spell.
http://www.politicaltest.net/test/result/222881/
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"The whole is something else than the sum of its parts" -Kurt Koffka

A fox tried to reach some grapes hanging high on the vine but was unable to.
As he went away, the fox remarked 'Oh, you aren't even ripe yet!'
As such are people who speak disparagingly of things that they cannot attain.
-The Fox and the Grapes

"Dictionaries don't decide what words mean. Prescriptivism is the ultimate form of elitism." -United Muscovite Nations
or subtle illiteracy, or lazy sidetracking. Just fucking follow the context.

Using dictionary definitions or wikipedia to support a claim, isn't smart, but only extra stupid.
As it shows you are too ignorant to know those stuff without help.

We're all a bit stupid and ignorant, just be humble about it.

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Postby Salus Maior » Fri Jul 17, 2020 9:38 am

I've had a question that I've had a hard time answering for myself lately: What exactly is a soul?
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Postby Tarsonis » Fri Jul 17, 2020 10:31 am

Salus Maior wrote:I've had a question that I've had a hard time answering for myself lately: What exactly is a soul?


https://www.catholic.com/qa/what-exactly-is-a-soul
Proud NS Keyboard Warrior since 2005.
Ecclesiastes 1:18 "For in much wisdom is much vexation, and those who increase knowledge increase sorrow"
Galatians 6:7 " Do not be deceived; God is not mocked, for you reap whatever you sow."
1 Corinthians 5:12 What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside?
T. Stevens: "I don't hold with equality in all things, but I believe in equality under the Law."
James I of Aragon "Have you ever considered that our position is Idolatry to the Rabbi?"
Debating Christian Theology with Non-Christians pretty much anybody be like

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